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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-11-2006 09:11 PM
Minky She made the decision to leave the testing until after the birth because there is risk to the baby if it's done before. Two of the three said they would test voluntarily and the third, as I said before, won't admit that he might be the dad. I don't know if you need the court order before the birth or if you can do it after. We will look into it. I think her idea about it has been to test the two who are willing to be tested--and then if it's not them, pursue the third guy.

We may need to talk to her parents. As far as I know, circ has never been brought up by or with them. DH's parents don't even know that we're not cirching, it's just not something we have brought up. But oviously they circed their child (DH) so it's something to think about.

She woke up this morning with even stronger convictions that her son doesn't need surgury right after birth. Maybe young mom's really are more open to not circing! I found it so nice that she listened to what I had to say on breastfeeding and babywearing, and that she didn't freak out when I told her about my planning a homebirth.

I consider this a success story, we just have to make sure nobody convinces her out of it.
02-11-2006 02:43 PM
Quirky Can't she get a court order to get these 3 boys tested for paternity/child support?

I mean, on the one hand, if she doesn't know who it is, she gets control of the baby...but on the other hand, raising a baby by yourself is hard financially. Plus, she should get his medical history, etc. for her baby.
02-11-2006 02:17 PM
morning glory I'm so glad to hear you are drawing up a birth plan with her. Hopefully that will make her feel empowered by her decision and more likely to stick with it.

Just another thought...are her parents on board with this decision or are they unaware of it? I'd just be on alert on the chance that they think its a bad idea and try to change her mind back since she doesn't seem too set on it at this point.

Also, since hse has decided to leaver her son whole make sure she starts educating herself about care and how to protect her son from uneducated medical professionals.

02-11-2006 10:40 AM
Fi. However, that being said:

If I had not been to the UK and slept with an intact man (and stayed friends with him because he's the one who made me decide not to with my son and he made me stand up to my partner) I would have absolutely 100% done it. I wouldn't have considered not doing it - I didn't even know there were people who DIDN'T do it. I had never seen one. Once the unknown was taken out of the foreskin it was less scary and I liked it.

It wasn't until after my son was born that I really UNDERSTOOD why circumcision was so bad.
02-11-2006 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Fi.
Hopefully P&T did the trick.
You can let her know there are other young moms who don't cut - I'm one of them, I'm a teen mom (gasp) and know other teen moms who left their sons intact. Actually I know more teen moms with intact babies then I do teen moms who cut.
I suspect that this is now the thing to do, women of your generation have far more access to new information than even women 10 years older than yourself. Anyone without pre-conceived ideas about circ'ing that do a little research are much less likely to cut than the older generation, most of whom simply didn't know any better and many of whom now feel that they have to justify their earlier decisions by supporting it.

Younger people are much more accepting of change, circumcision is an outdated relic of a procedure, that should be consigned to the 20th century as an aberration of history. One day people will look back and shake their heads when they hear what circ was supposed to cure - like we do when we hear that it was supposed to prevent/cure epilepsy, paralysis and blindness.
02-11-2006 08:16 AM
Fi. Hopefully P&T did the trick.
You can let her know there are other young moms who don't cut - I'm one of them, I'm a teen mom (gasp) and know other teen moms who left their sons intact. Actually I know more teen moms with intact babies then I do teen moms who cut.
02-11-2006 05:47 AM
LadyMarmalade I'm so pleased Penn and Teller seemed to work! Crossing my fingers that she stays strong.
02-11-2006 04:52 AM
Minky I am going to help her draw up a birth plan to use in the hospital that involves leaving the baby intact. I am sure she will need signs and tags for the diapers and everything else.

I don't think homebirth is an option. I get the feeling that if we try to usurp this girl's parents' authority, it is going to harm family relations. She was interested in homebirth and investigated it, but seems to be fine with hospital birth as well. If she was really begging me to help her birth at home I would help her out financially but I think nobody wants to cause trouble with her parents.
02-11-2006 04:23 AM
kate~mom awesome development!
02-11-2006 04:13 AM
Minky Excellent news! Penn and Teller made her think! And she told me she is leaning toward leaving the baby intact. I guess all the functions of the foreskin set in as she was watching better than they did when it was just me telling her. I have never been more thankful for TV.
02-11-2006 12:51 AM
morning glory With the home birth you mean that a midwife would not be covered through insurance? If thats the case what would the cost be and is there a way it could be worked out?

The reason I ask is I think that a homebirth might allow her time to fall in love with her baby so that protective instinct might kick in. Its a lot more work to haul him into the hospital and it may make her think about it more. Plus the whole hospital environment is pretty horrible when it comes to giving birth anyway. Maybe a birth centre would be a compromise that would work?

If she has to go to a hospital see if you can find one in your area that doesn't do circ. The farther you can remove her and the baby from the possibility the better.

With any luck by the time baby is here she will have seen the light anyway.

02-11-2006 12:48 AM
2Sweeties1Angel Not trying to make myself out to be a whore or anything, but sex with an intact male is MUCH better than sex with a circ'd male. Maybe you could mention that to her.
02-11-2006 12:25 AM
Frankly Speaking Minky, I think that's a great idea about not providing daycare.

Also, if I remember correctly, you are in one of the states that has defunded Medicaid circumcisions. That's another arrrow in your sling.

02-10-2006 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Quirky
Minky, is the babydaddy in the picture at all? Will he need to be educated as well? Will your SIL be influenced by his circ status even if he's not in the picture - i.e. "circ the baby to look like daddy" even if she's not with him?

Just something to plan for - I have read stories of young single mamas who decided to circ or were pressured to circ by the babydaddies even though they weren't still together.
The babydaddy is one of three different guys, one of whom won't admit to sleeping with her for legality reasons. We have invited the other two up to visit and take part in the pregnancy, but they both said no. I highly doubt that either of them will show up for the birth but if they show any interest I will have to educate them as well.
02-10-2006 10:46 PM
Microsoap About you being in the midwest thinking the circ rate is sky high... sometimes that's true, but other times you'll find yourself very, very pleasantly surprised! Check out post #98 from fellow dear intactivist Tinijocaro who knows many intact boys in the area of Buffalo she lives in.

P.S. There's online family photo sharing websites (you know the ones) and show her a newly circumcised baby boy when it's just a couple of days or a week old and then show her an intact baby boy at the same age and she'll see CLEAR NIGHT AND DAY difference in the cosmetically appealing version. That little cone-shaped "french fry" is the "pretty" way to go! Plus, look at the difference of two boys (once again, circumcised and intact) at 2 or 3 and I'll tell you the look of a little boy with his pale, dried out glans and ugly circ scar on his shaft doesn't look _any_ better once it's "healed". Seriously, I grieve for these boys whenever I see one. Human rights violated; a penis permanently altered... it's all so very ugly and wrong, wrong, wrong!
02-10-2006 09:03 PM
lizzie Hi Minky!

Since sil is interested in breastfeeding, have you mentioned how circ'ing can mess that up? Or gone through the physiological impact having that done has on a newborn? (the stress, the being strapped down, the excruciating pain, etc?)

Let's not forget Jude Law... And I practically credit Ewan McGregor for my darling boy's happy intactness.. never even heard of not circ'ing until he started strutting around!!


PS.. well done on the refusal to care for a mutilated penis plan.. and another point to doing everything to encourage bf'ing.. formula costs WAY too much if it doesn't go well.
02-10-2006 08:23 PM
Quirky Minky, is the babydaddy in the picture at all? Will he need to be educated as well? Will your SIL be influenced by his circ status even if he's not in the picture - i.e. "circ the baby to look like daddy" even if she's not with him?

Just something to plan for - I have read stories of young single mamas who decided to circ or were pressured to circ by the babydaddies even though they weren't still together.
02-10-2006 05:57 PM
Minky Ok but I think the message that teens get from this is, it's ok to break up with someone because their intact. Even if she was just making up excuses it is aparently an excuse that has been used before. KWIM?
02-10-2006 10:20 AM
polarbear Talking about circumcision on TV. Several years ago the medical drama "ER" had a storyline about a college boy who was admitted to the emergency room because he tried to do a self-circumcision since his girlfriend expressed revulsion at his intact penis. He got half way through it and could not bear the pain to continue. The doctors gave him the option to cut the rest off or sew it back up. He chose to cut the rest off. In one of the last scenes, the girlfriend was waiting in the hospital for word and admits to one of the staff that she only said it because she wanted to break up with him. OOPS!
02-10-2006 06:53 AM
Minky So many good ideas, I am glad I am up in the middle of the night checking this thread.

We do have the Penn and Teller episode. I got it off Ebay for my sister who turned out to already be pro intact. We will be watching it as a family sometime this weekend.

I have given the issue a rest. I do not want her to think I've gone insane so I am not pushing it yet. The Penn and Teller thing will be brought up gently, but very very soon, and if that doesn't work, I think it's time to watch a circ done on the net. It's not her age I'm worried about, I think 17 year old's are capable of being good moms and very adult, the circ videos bother me because the baby boy in the video didn't choose to be circ'd or have it filmed and be on the net. But if Penn and Teller doesn't work I think we are gonna have to look.

With the TV shows, thank you all for the information. I have mentioned that those shows are fiction and she says that the Sex and the City (funny I always thought it was Sex IN the city until this thread!!!!!) was probably made up, but that the medical shows are based on actual cases. I will be working on this. I don't think she can be watching most of these shows at our house because we don't have cable. Maybe this is why she doesn't know the outcome of the Nip Tuck show.

Now for you, Frank. You know me, I am not kicking her out. But what I will do is if worst comes to worst I'm going to tell her she has to find other daycare for her child because I will not care for a mutilated penis. That might raelly get her because she has the goal of finishing high school and does not have the money for childcare.

I don't know who would pay for the circ. I don't know anything about her parent's insurance, just that she asked about homebirth and her parent's told her it was absolutely not covered, she can have a hospital birth and that was that. No idea if that's true or if they just don't want her having a homebirth. I think she assumes the circ is included, or did until I told her it doesn't "have to" be done. I will ask her to look into it. I am not paying for it so that may be a stumbling block too.

We are in the Midwest and I know the circ rate here is still high. But she is always talking like she doesn't want to stay here, she would like to go to California. I think this was also inspired by Tv. . . . . Maybe the intactness rate there will help!

I will keep you guys posted. Thanks for all the good wishes. I think this is a foreskin we can save, I Just need to work on her and keep her from shutting down and desiding I've gone crazy.
02-09-2006 09:14 PM
ozzyemm Just curiuos, but how is she going to pay to get this done? Is it covered by parents' insurance? I know cost can be a motivating factor.
02-09-2006 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by alegna
Maybe the Penn and Teller episode?

good luck!

That's a good idea too, Angela. I can totally see it appealing to the younger crowd.


PS. Here's a link to the Intact Video morning glory made referrence to: (It shows the procedure in pictures, first...and that may be enough to stimulate her protective maternal instincts.)
02-09-2006 09:02 PM
Fi. I second explaining the Nip/Tuck episode to her, obviously she didn't pay much attention.

I also agree with showing her the function of the foreskin etc, and then showing her an adult intact male naked in a movie (since she likes TV). Innocently rent the movie, ask her to watch it and when he's naked go "Oh wow, he's not cut" or something similar.

Then the circumcision videos. Then the testimonials of pissed off men who want their foreskins back.

And then ask her to sit down and really read this

And remind her that it's by a circumcised man. Make sure she really reads it. It'll probably be the only resource you really need. It's got pictures and is written in simple English.
02-09-2006 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by njeb
Rent a movie with Ewan McGregor in it. I'm serious--he's intact, and the movies Velvet Goldmine and Young Adam display his gorgeous intact penis quite well. I dare anyone to call his penis ugly!!!

You can also mention that Colin Farrell and Liam Neeson are intact. Almost all European actors are whole. For that matter, you can let her know that almost all European men are intact, and they think we're barbarians for allowing the genital mutilation of men to continue.

Good luck!

I would definitely ask her if she thinks Colin Farrell is hot, then (hopefully) when she says yes, ask her if she thinks he has any trouble getting dates!

PLAYBOY: Do you find Americans woman fascinated by an uncircumcised penis?

FARRELL: They are kind of f****** fascinated with a foreskin, aren't they? In Ireland, at birth we don't get the tip of our f****** knobs chopped off. I f****** completely disagree with that. People say, It's much cleaner to have no foreskin. What, have you never heard of a f****** shower? Of Q-Tips? Whatever you want to do it, just clean the f****** thing. I was at the party with 20 people, one of them an agent from CAA, when somehow the subject of foreskin came up. She said, I just don't understand the foreskin. I've never seen one. So I whipped out my d*** and said, Here, that's all it is. A bit of skin. I did a little Puppetry of the Penis thing and showed her what it was about. You would have thought she was at a circus the way she was looking at me.

How about Markus Schenkenberg? Who could say no to that!!!!!!

Perhaps Jesse Metcalf from Desperate Housewives?

Leo DiCaprio or Paul Walker perhaps?

If that doesn't work, there are lots of other great options mentioned here.

Good luck and keep us posted!
02-09-2006 08:13 PM
Bartock Please tell her my doctor told me 95% of boys are not cut these days, and being cut might mean by the time a girl sees it he will probeble be the one with the ugly looking penis, then what, he might want to restore his foreskin like my dh is, why put him through that. And also let her know there are more health risks like death from getting it done than not. Hope this will change her mind. Good luck
02-09-2006 07:49 PM
alegna Maybe the Penn and Teller episode?

good luck!

02-09-2006 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Minky
Aparently she has NOT seen an intact male. But she has heard about it on TV. We really don't watch TV much at our house, well she does, but we don't join her, but she was able to name 3 shows, Sex In The City, Dr. House, and Nip and Tuck, where there was an intact guy and nobody wanted to sleep with him because his penis was so ugly. She even went as far as to say "In two of those show's, the boy got so depressed he cut it off himself. I won't do that to my son."

Just so you know, EMERGENCY information.

The show niptuck. The boy THOUGHT it was because he was uncircumsized, the girl never really said that, she just showed revulsion about penis's in general.

After the boy self mutilates, and then has his uncle finish the job for him, he goes home after he is healed thinking he is about to get laid.

Then he walks in to the room where his girlfriend is having sex with another girl.

She didnt want to have sex with him because she is a lesbian and was trying to cover it up by having a boyfriend.

sad news still, but the dude was wrong about why she didn't want to have sex with him. and it came out in the show too.

His dad, a plastic surgeon, was PISSED that he would mutilate his own perfect body. Funny how that works.
02-09-2006 06:53 PM
MommytoB In my opinion I would just say those t.v shows state the predjuice of uncut guys but now the judgement of women are getting 'erased' because lots more mom's and dad's are leaving there son's uncut which is highly getting raised up.
02-09-2006 03:59 PM
kaja That's right, I am from Europe and the firstand only time I saw a mutilated p I though the guy had an accident or that he was a religious fanatic. I did not know it was a tradition in this part of a world. Who started it here? it is not from Europe, not from native Americans. Anyone knows the history? May be that would help. Whoever started it must have been a freak...
TV is really evil. Isn't love abt something else than look of a p.?
Anyway, when "they" have an erection you can't tell if they are or not c.- or may be I did not pay attention?

It is really interesting that she has such a strong opinion abt. it.
I guess she should be able to decide at the end. Hopefully she will do the right thing. If not, please forgive her. Don't forget, there are many c. men and they live and are happy...most of the time
02-09-2006 03:56 PM
morning glory I can see your hesitancy to show her a video of a circ but a 17 year old mother might be young but she is still a mother. Like it or not she has the same responsibility as the rest of us to educate herself.

First you could ask her if she knows exactly *how* a aircumcision is done and specifically *what* she is signing her baby up for. There is a site with a video that I can't find my link for that shows the photo play by play before you click on the watch video. That was enough for me. I'm hoping someone here has it?

Make sure she knows it is not less painful for a baby he just doesn't have words to tell you how much it hurts.

I also think that showing photos of an intact baby might be a good idea. The only time she is going to have to look at his penis is while he is a baby anyway.

As for the "cutting it off himself" argument. Thats TV. Its for ratings. I know you know sure to point it out to her. Does she really want to get her parenting advice from Sex and the City?

I've only known a few men with foreskins and not one of them would consider cutting it off. They were *very* happy with what they had.

You could also point out to her that **IN REAL LIFE** there are many men who go to a lot of trouble to reconstruct the foreskins that their parents had cut off without their consent.

If this thread stays fairly civil you could have her come here and read.

You could put it to her as it being her job as a mother to educate herself on parenting issues, not just believing what you see on TV.

And also point out to her that with the way circ rates are going down having her son cut may leave him in the minority when he is in school. And how would she like him to find out that she cut off a part of his penis when he was a baby? Come to think of it be sure to point out that it *IS* part of his penis. Its not an extra anything.

And point out the sexual function. Compare it to her girl parts and ask how she would feel about having parts of her very private areas cut off without her consent. And maybe have her look into FGM and see how she feels about that. If its good for boys it must be good for girls too, right?

Finally point out the pain and complications, including death. Is it worth risking her babies life for? On TV teenage boys cut off thier foreskins. In real life babies have died from being circumcised. Someone here...can't remember who, sorry...has "circumcison scars" in their siggy and it links to photos of botched circ's. Very scary stuff but she should know what could happen.

This isn't just a cosmetic issue or even a health issue, it is a *human rights* issue. Be sure she knows that. Teenagers are very fond of the idea of freedom and the right to their own life, ask if her son doesn't have that same right.

And point out that if she raises him to be a strong and confident kid it won't matter what anyone else thinks about his body. But if she cuts part of it off at birth what message is that sending?

Anyway...those are my suggestions.

Oh and on Nip/Tuck the girl didn't like the boys penis because she was a lesbian...the foreskin was just the excuse she gave. And one of the girls on Sex and the City liked intact penises. Which isn't really relevant since he is likely going to want to sleep with girls his age so what is "cool" on TV now shouldn't impact her decision at all.

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