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Thread: Breastfeeding at any cost??? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-03-2014 04:02 PM
aggy Hi. Can you please send me your goat milk recipe. Thx!!
07-31-2006 11:47 AM
Trishy Closed for admin review.
07-31-2006 11:03 AM
Party*of*5 Wow, some of you are just plain vindictive, no matter what's said. What is this, jr. high : But it's well known that making personal attacks to avoid responding to the issues is a tactic of the small minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama-a-llama
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.


And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.
Yes that's very sad. But NIP isn't doing anything wrong. Allowing ignorant people to have that affect on one's emotions does nothing to advance social change. I too struggle with feeling embarrassed about NIP, mainly because of my size, but if I don't do it and act totally at ease, then how can I help "the cause"? Doing the action first will usually cause the feelings to follow. It's harder than the other way around, but alot more practical.
07-31-2006 10:42 AM
gethane I think part of the problem is before any of those real societal changes can occur, the U.S. HAS to stop pumping such a huge portion of our GNP into the war machine.

And I know for myself that I feel powerless to make these big changes. Yeah, I vote democrat. In Nebraska, where its completely wasted. And sometimes those feelings of powerless can turn to trying to make a change where you don't feel powerless. Which I think is the case often when we try to tear down other women for not breastfeeding. We feel so powerless to change the big picture and so frustrated that we turn our frustrations to those women who don't breastfeed.
07-31-2006 10:23 AM
Houdini
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama-a-llama
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.
Very good example!
07-31-2006 10:21 AM
Houdini
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
No one can make another person feel shame.
I completely disagree with this statement.
07-31-2006 09:47 AM
GooeyRN
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama-a-llama
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.


And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.
And these are the people that really need to mind their own business. A woman was feeding a baby. Big stinking deal. Who was she harming?

(I am not flaming you. Im just angry about some people always find something to complain about. Why not complain about the guy who pee's behind the bar or behind a bush at a fair b/c he doesn't want to wait in line at the jobjohnny. You can probably tell I am a bit cranky today.)
07-31-2006 09:43 AM
thismama This idea that shame is an internal feeling, seperate from interpersonal interaction, is a convenient way to avoid responsibility for the harm our judgments and loathing can create.
07-31-2006 09:36 AM
mama-a-llama
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
No one can make another person feel shame. Shame is a self initiated emotion caused by the knowledge that one has done something shameful.
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.

Quote:
The desire to not feel shame motivates certain people to make good choices.
And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.
07-31-2006 09:32 AM
thismama
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel
Well, you would know.
Too, too true.
07-31-2006 06:17 AM
GalateaDunkel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down.
Well, you would know.
07-31-2006 01:33 AM
Party*of*5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
I agree that there is more than one way to approach breastfeeding advocacy. That does not mean that all ways are valid, however.
If I had said this someone would ask "who are YOU to judge what's valid?"

Quote:
Agreed. But we all deserve respect, and you don't seem to respect other women. You don't trust them to make their own choices. You feel they are responsible for their failure to adequately perservere in breastfeeding (failure as defined by YOU). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.
I respect all humans in the basic way. You are making a blanket statement about all women. When you say "own choices" that does not mean "right choices". Not everyone who "fails" BFing did something wrong. I do not define BFing failure since it is different in every case. Since I can't know every woman, and I'm not an LC or MD I cannot possibly have enough info to even speculate. As I've said, I can give the most basic advice, beyond that I give phone numbers, books and websites - period!

Quote:
Agreed, but very few people are reached by methods that rely on shaming.
No one can make another person feel shame. Shame is a self initiated emotion caused by the knowledge that one has done something shameful. The desire to not feel shame motivates certain people to make good choices. Certainly there are those who are not motivated by shame, I never suggested otherwise.

Quote:
I agree with the latter sentence, but not with the former. I think that it would be very hard for me to effectively reach out to someone if I felt that they should feel shame for their actions.
I don't know why this is so hard? I've managed to help women whom I personally thought made poor choices. My goal is to educate them so they are able to make better choices. I understand it is not in the interest of obtaining my goal to enlighten them to my personal opinion of their past choices. In the case with one woman I helped, I could not change what happend with her toddler, but telling her what I thought about it would not help me get her soon to be born baby on her breast. By keeping my personal opinions out of it, I was able to educate her and her baby is now BFing
07-31-2006 01:12 AM
Nora'sMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Nevermind, I realize it's not useful to make statements that could lead to fighting about personal/political/social opinions.
That's good!

Quote:
we all have different styles, and we can all reach people.
I agree that there is more than one way to approach breastfeeding advocacy. That does not mean that all ways are valid, however.

Quote:
No one wants to live in a world where everyone is the same (at least I don't think so).
Agreed. But we all deserve respect, and you don't seem to respect other women. You don't trust them to make their own choices. You feel they are responsible for their failure to adequately perservere in breastfeeding (failure as defined by YOU). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

Quote:
Different people are reached by different methods.
Agreed, but very few people are reached by methods that rely on shaming.

Quote:
We should all be respectful IRL when dealing with women one on one.
Agreed.

Quote:
That doesn't have to have anything to do with our personal opinions about her choices or circumstances. We can still reach someone even if we don't agree with their choices or stances.
I agree with the latter sentence, but not with the former. I think that it would be very hard for me to effectively reach out to someone if I felt that they should feel shame for their actions.
07-30-2006 08:02 PM
ShadowMom What I don't understand about these threads (rampant judgmentalism of other mothers aside), is this...

We have all discussed on this board before, in-depth, and I think most realize, that in order to truly improve breastfeeding rates (which I think is a goal most everyone here wants, safe to say?), the way to go about it is through changing :

1. Formula marketing practices
2. Cultural biases (breasts are sexual, bf'ing is gross, etc.)
3. Education (mainly of lactation consultants, pediatricians, etc.)

Attacking individual mothers and shaming/blaming really doesn't do anything to change things. Surely no one thinks that?

And yet still we have people posting to specifically point out situations where they think mothers should feel ashamed, guilty, negligent, and all variety of negative things.

I don't understand it. If the goal is to normalize breastfeeding and improve rates of breastfeeding... why don't we focus more on getting policies changes... support provided... ?

Why this obsession with attacking other mothers?

I guess my post is more of a plea. It is not up to you (collective you) or any other person to determine whether a mother tried hard enough, or should feel guilty, or is not a good mother. It IS up to ALL of us, in my opinion, if we are lactivitists, to try to enact POSITIVE changes in the system that discourages breastfeeding.
07-30-2006 07:42 PM
Party*of*5 Nevermind, I realize it's not useful to make statements that could lead to fighting about personal/political/social opinions. That is not related to the topic of this thread, and not what I intended. One thing that is related to recent discussions is that we all have different styles, and we can all reach people. No one wants to live in a world where everyone is the same (at least I don't think so). Different people are reached by different methods. We should all be respectful IRL when dealing with women one on one. That doesn't have to have anything to do with our personal opinions about her choices or circumstances. We can still reach someone even if we don't agree with their choices or stances.
07-30-2006 07:17 PM
hawkfeather
Quote:
Originally Posted by familylove
I realize my tone is very snarky, but what you said was extremely hurtful (or what I understood you to say) and required a response.
I honeslty do not think you sound snarky at all, you are sharing something personal and relevant.
07-30-2006 06:12 PM
thismama
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
No, no one actually said those words, but that's the tone here. That men should stay out of it completey, even if they do help create these children!
Could you point me to where somebody said men should stay out of it completely? Coz I haven't seen that.

My own view is that men should be a hell of a lot more supportive, and that it is not okay for men to sit back after a full night's sleep and *decide* whether or not a woman is going to bf (and all too often they decide women are NOT going to bf).
07-30-2006 05:56 PM
the_lissa Women are scary? :
07-30-2006 05:54 PM
gethane : :
07-30-2006 05:51 PM
Party*of*5
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82
Speaking of twisting words, that is NOT EVEN what I said. You asked where the men were, and I said that they *usually* don't post on forums/parenting sites, let alone ones called "mothering". My DH spends all of his internet time playing World Of Warcraft. Believe me, I have TRIED to get him to post here.
No, no one actually said those words, but that's the tone here. That men should stay out of it completey, even if they do help create these children! And yes there are men on this site and if you haven't run into them that's your problem. No they don't post nearly as much as women, but just because the site is called "mothering" doesn't exlude men. Obviously since there's a Dad's forum right here also! Besides, that was more rhetorical, I wasn't speaking of this forum, I meant where are the men in these children's lives who should be supporting and advocating their children getting the best nutrition possible, whenever possible!

And yes, my statements about women were too broad and made in haste. I'm only hostile to women who think the world revolves around them and men are worthless and children are so resiliant that they will survive whatever the mother chooses to put them through. And if I do seem hostile it's because I've never been surrounded by so many wishy washy yet militant, near sighted, blame shifting people in my life. Taking them in small doses is fine, but to find such a huge gathering of them in one place is quite disturbing!
07-30-2006 05:14 PM
thismama
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion
Whoa.

Talking about patriarchy's impact on mothers and babies is not male bashing, or fearing masculinity.

And "women are the truly scary half of society?" Wow, I feel very sorry for you that you feel that way, it must be really hard.

You and I are so far apart in our views that I don't think we will ever understand where the other is coming from.
07-30-2006 05:03 PM
hawkfeather
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebottle
i don't think it's the majority by any means, but yes, a small but very vocal minority latch on to the idea of aggressively advocating for what they believe in, because they like to feel superior to others.

i have seen it in all of the activist circles i've ever been near. "lactivism" is no different.

xoa
There is always a vocal minority, but i do not think anyone can decide what another's intentions are based on an expressed opinion.
Being called a nazi by ff'ers might tell me that a small minority has little respect for those who died in the holocaust, but really like most vocal minorites it really just tells me some are ignorant, or perhaps passionate..but really it is usually worth ignoring.
07-30-2006 03:21 PM
Nora'sMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
But women are the truely scary half of society.


Edited...because it will be taken as sarcastic.

to everyone, seriously!
07-30-2006 03:12 PM
familylove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work. I'm 5 yrs away from that place and still not perfect, but I'm not in the pit either. I pulled myself out. It's a power every person has in them if they *choose* to use it.
WOW! I think this is the most demeaning, judgemental, ill-informed comment I have read to date on MDC. (Although, sadly, it is used in society at-large to perpetuate the idea that mental illness merely requires pulling oneself up by the bootstraps.) I do not *choose* to have bipolar disorder. I did not *choose* to be depressed throughout my pregnancy and then thrown into a psychotic episode of PPD. You know what I did choose? I went without the medications that would have pulled me out of my hell for a year so I could BF my son. (Let the flaming begin that I *only* BF a year). B/c I waited a year to begin medical treatment, I got to enjoy three years of being an unstable bipolar. You thought about suicide once or twice? Honey, I thought about it every day. DH had to quit his job to take care of me and DS. He couldn't leave the house b/c my urges to hurt myself were so strong. THAT is how committed to BF and my child I am. I also will not be able to have any more biological children due to my illness...do you really think that is what I *choose*?

So yes, I stopped at NOTHING to BF my son, at the expense of my own mental health. But b/c I have been to hell, there is NO way I will judge another woman for making her own *informed* decision about BF. I would love to see every baby breastfed exclusively, but we don't live in a perfect world. All we can do is support one another and provide information and resources.

I realize my tone is very snarky, but what you said was extremely hurtful (or what I understood you to say) and required a response.

ETA: I read Party's comment and hit "Reply" before bothering to read the posts that ensued. I'm sorry for repeating much of what had been covered in pps.
07-30-2006 02:50 PM
bamamom
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma

I totally agree that in theory a child has the right to breastmilk. I also believe that a child has a right to a mother who can take care of and nurture him or her. If you have to choose between one or the other, choose the latter.
Thank you Amma...
07-30-2006 02:42 PM
Dido
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion
You know, all along I have been wondering why Partyof5's posts are so belligerent and intolerant. Now I know why: she's just plain hostile to women. I'm not sure why she's posting here, but I am sure that a woman who hates women has nothing to teach me about breastfeeding. If I'm interested in having misogyny be an important part of my day, I'm sure I can find a talk radio station that fits the bill. Meanwhile, though, I'm on Mothering. Now how's that ignore function work again?
07-30-2006 01:31 PM
boingo82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
... And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion
Speaking of twisting words, that is NOT EVEN what I said. You asked where the men were, and I said that they *usually* don't post on forums/parenting sites, let alone ones called "mothering". My DH spends all of his internet time playing World Of Warcraft. Believe me, I have TRIED to get him to post here.
07-30-2006 01:24 PM
bamamom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonprysm
He stayed on my breasts almost 24 hours. And 2 or 3 weeks later when I took him to the pediatrician, he was malnurished and dehydrated.

Nobody should ever be made to feel guilty for having to use formula. Do I judge the mothers that ff from birth? Yeah. But to tell a woman that she didn't try hard enough, or that her reasons for stopping breastfeeding aren't justified is terrible.

I'd heard this "most of women who stop was because of misinformation" crap. And if that hadn't been so drilled into my head that it's possible for almost everyone, then maybe we wouldn't have gone through the terrible time we went through with my son already being early, low birth weight, and then malnutritioned because of my stupid pride.
absolutely..same here. malnourished and dehydrated...ugh.
07-30-2006 01:18 PM
Party*of*5
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamamom

Then one day I saw a picture of him....I had taken a naked butt pic of him after a bath...he was about 5.5 months old at the time. And what I saw horrified me./...........

you know those pics you see on TV of malnourished babies in third world countries?? Ribs sticking out?? hips sticking out??head huge on a tiny body??

That was my son.

At 6 months old, he was barely barely 4 lbs heavier than his birth weight. And losing fast.

I had LC's. I had herbs. I had every darn LLL leader I could get my hand on. And nothing was working. I had plenty of milk!! It was something *IN"* the milk.
OMG this is almost word for word what happend to my best friend with her 3rd baby! She finally ended up giving her some kind of goat milk formula? I forget exactly what it was. I think they determined that because she had low thyroid her milk was lacking something. This time she had to take dom peridone (sp?) the whole time and was able to nurse almost a full year.
07-30-2006 01:17 PM
gethane I certainly don't think we should shame women or demonize formula. We DO need a cultural shift where women aren't taught by culture that bfing is "gross". Look at the ridiculous outcry of that baby magazine with the breastfeeding baby on the cover. The most insane part about that was how the news reported it. "Over a quarter of the people who responded were upset with the cover!!!" oh no! How about "Three quarters of the respondents had a postive reaction to the cover." More women would naturally choose to breastfeed if our culture was different.

However, on the other side, I certainly don't think its helpful to insinuate that bfing "causes" depression. That's just one more myth that lactivism has to fight. One more excuse for the cultural negativity against breastfeeding. One more thing that the formula companies can insinuate in their ads.

Either side spouting untruths are hurtful to the issue of breastfeeding. It's hurtful to breastfeeding as a whole when forumla feeding mom's perpetuate myths about breastfeeding. It isn't helpful to let these myths stand. It isn't about attacking the women, its about attacking the myths and untruths our culture perpetuates about breastfeeding.

Bottom line: Other countries DO have higher breastfeeding initialization and continuation rates. Let's emulate that. Why reinvent the wheel if we already have examples of success?
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