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  Topic Review (Newest First)
05-21-2007 08:05 PM
BelovedK This thread is now closed to new posts.
05-21-2007 01:54 PM
DariusMom
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post
Yes! We're all practically saying the same thing. I don't see a problem with people having slightly varying shades of opinion on the matter, and clearly neither "side" is going to change the other's mind -- I'd say time to drop it.
yep . . . although I keep checking the latest postings on this thread, I'm also exasperated by it. I think . . . well . . . we've all said what we have to say on the topic and there isn't much new to be added.
05-21-2007 12:51 PM
limabean
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
It's been a long thread, but it seems to me that the vast, vast majority of the people here have expressed the same thing--disagree with the leaving of kids + some measure of compassion for the parents and not attacking the parents.

Does that sound about right to others?
Yes! We're all practically saying the same thing. I don't see a problem with people having slightly varying shades of opinion on the matter, and clearly neither "side" is going to change the other's mind -- I'd say time to drop it.
05-21-2007 12:37 PM
monkey's mom It's been a long thread, but it seems to me that the vast, vast majority of the people here have expressed the same thing--disagree with the leaving of kids + some measure of compassion for the parents and not attacking the parents.

Does that sound about right to others?
05-21-2007 12:26 PM
Quindin
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara View Post
This is just not true. Not about Norwegians.

Norwegians do not find it perfectly acceptable to leave your child and go eat dinner at a restaurant. Not at all. BUT, Norwegians still don`t judge the parents in this case.

I have yet to hear a parent here in Norway saying they would do what Maddies parents did. It`s totally accepted to leave your kid in a pram outside a cafè (where you are sitting very, very close with just a glasswindow between you and the babe) but noone I have talked to has ever said that it is just as ok to leave the child like Maddies parents did. Most people here say they would never do that. And at the same time, most people say that they would never blame the parents for this. We all do things that has the potential to lead to things like this. We all turn away from our children at one point or another.
Thank you!!
Not bashing Madeleine's parents does not mean people think it is a good thing to leave the kids alone - it just means they have compassion and understanding for the fact everyone makes mistakes! People in the UK are also saying they would never leave their children alone, but most are NOT attacking the McCanns either.
05-21-2007 10:49 AM
Hazelnut yeah Isobelle your post gave me a lot to think about, but I still don't entirely agree. I mean, if I leave them alone, they play in the street, and a careful driver hits them accidentally? I leave them alone, and an electrical fire occurs? Endless examples that don't really compare seem pointless, but my point is that at some point, "foolish" decisions amount to some degree of responsibility for the outcome. I don't know. I think leaving kids alone in a hotel room is a little more than foolish.

Not like I want to jump on board with blaming parents for everything though. I agree we've all done something- if not left them alone in a hotel room- that could have led to a disaster in the wrong circumstances. It does bother me that blame seems to be the first response in the U.S. It's just that I can't quite wrap my mind around leaving kids in a hotel room. Maaaybe if I could see the door or something, but three kids? But I don't know.
05-21-2007 10:18 AM
*LoveBugMama*
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44 View Post
Yes, as explained in the article (did you read it?) NORTHERN Europeans (like Norweigians) as a whole find the behavior of leaving your kids so you can have a nice dinner alone perfectly accpetable.

HOWEVER, Southern Europeans do not. Not at all.


This is just not true. Not about Norwegians.

Norwegians do not find it perfectly acceptable to leave your child and go eat dinner at a restaurant. Not at all. BUT, Norwegians still don`t judge the parents in this case.

I have yet to hear a parent here in Norway saying they would do what Maddies parents did. It`s totally accepted to leave your kid in a pram outside a cafè (where you are sitting very, very close with just a glasswindow between you and the babe) but noone I have talked to has ever said that it is just as ok to leave the child like Maddies parents did. Most people here say they would never do that. And at the same time, most people say that they would never blame the parents for this. We all do things that has the potential to lead to things like this. We all turn away from our children at one point or another.

I can`t talk for all Norwegians, obviously. But as the Administrator of 2 Norwegian parentingboards, one of them among the largest in Norway, I come in contact with loads of parents.
05-21-2007 10:07 AM
monkey's mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
Hazelnut, you wouldn't be to blame. You are not responsible for the crimes of other people. You would have made a mistake, an error, but this is not the same as committing a crime.
I'm not sure that's true. Depending on where you are, there are some laws re. leaving kids alone and CPS guidelines where a charge of neglect can be brought if something bad happens to a child who has been left unsupervised.

Am I to blame if I leave a loaded gun on the coffee table with an unsupervised toddler, and someone enters my home and shoots her with it?

I would think some of that responsibility would lie with me. Same in the arsenist scenario. Its why you're not supposed to leave kids alone. Bad, unthinkable, surprising, accidental, fatal, dangerous things can happen in the blink of an eye. And someone is supposed to be there to protect kids from them.

If the loaded gun on the coffee table nevers goes off, does it make it any better an idea to leave it there?

I think the vast majority of the people in this thread who "blame" the parents, think that leaving the kids was a bad idea REGARDLESS of the kidnapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BookGoddess View Post
Yes, they made a bad decision but they are paying for it now. Believe me they know it. No judgment we heap on these parents will ever equal the judgement, recrimination, and guilt they put on themselves now. Nothing we say can equal what they must be telling themselves. Nothing can equal it.
I am not trying to heap anything on these people or add to their suffering or make them feel bad. I'm just interested in discussing this case.

I'm sure none of us here would have this conversation in the parents' presence.

I might be an unsympathetic monster, but I'm not TACKY! I kid.
05-21-2007 09:24 AM
maya44
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara View Post
Here in Norway the media is NOT blaming the parents. Not at all. And "the person on the street" isn`t either. Not in a big scale, anyway.
Yes, as explained in the article (did you read it?) NORTHERN Europeans (like Norweigians) as a whole find the behavior of leaving your kids so you can have a nice dinner alone perfectly accpetable.

HOWEVER, Southern Europeans do not. Not at all.
05-21-2007 05:04 AM
BookGoddess Yes, they made a bad decision but they are paying for it now. Believe me they know it. No judgment we heap on these parents will ever equal the judgement, recrimination, and guilt they put on themselves now. Nothing we say can equal what they must be telling themselves. Nothing can equal it. I don't know how they can sleep at night. It must be sheer agony. I imagine they must be getting sedatives. To think that their little girl might at the moment be raped, sodomized, or worse is absolutely horrifying. And unless their DD is found soon (I pray she is found safe and alive) they will live with the full horror of their decision and it will carry over for the rest of their lives. It will have such a ripple effect on them, their family, and their two other children. They have my compassion and prayers.
05-21-2007 02:38 AM
EdnaMarie Hazelnut, you wouldn't be to blame. You are not responsible for the crimes of other people. You would have made a mistake, an error, but this is not the same as committing a crime.

Trying to harm and making a mistake that results in harm are not the same thing, ethically.

There is such a thing as criminal negligence. But the woman who goes outside to pick up the paper and accidentally locks the door so that she can't get in when her two-year-old wakes up is not criminally negligent. Going out to eat in the yard of a complex while your children sleep less than five seconds away is foolish but not criminally negligent.
05-21-2007 02:36 AM
Quennie I would never have the heart to leave my kid to anyone I'm not sure who he or she is. It's like placing my child in danger! It's disheartening to know that some moms do so and end up in some compromising situation.

Best to have your children near you. No harm can befall them if they are under your care.:-)
05-21-2007 02:22 AM
Hazelnut Well, I'm not in agreement with the idea that it's 100% the parents fault or anything. My heart goes out to them, and I think most parents at some point could have made a poor decision that could have led to disaster in the wrong place, wrong time. That said, they did put their kid at risk. It might be pointless now to bemoan that, but I think it's wrong to deny it. If I left my kids home alone "just for a minute" and there was a fire set by an arsonist, well, I think I'd still be partly to blame.
05-21-2007 02:14 AM
EdnaMarie I feel sorry for the people who blame the parents.

Apparently, they have a very, very skewed idea of how child abduction happens and who is most at risk. (Do you have people around you that know where your child's bedroom is? Shame on you! Do you occasionally look people in the eyes when in public when your child is not being worn by you? Shame on you!) They also have an extremely poor understanding of blameworthiness and ethics in general which points to lack of access to education.

Ladies, the kind of abduction these parents experienced is very uncommon. The most common is abduction by people we know. Molestation is most common not by abductors, but by family members.

Think you're immune? Think it couldn't happen to you because you're a good parent? I beg you- don't tempt fate. Have a little compassion.

(By the way... so that all of the Europeans don't think we are all a bunch of judgemental UA violations, I'm American. Not feeling PARTICULARLY proud of it at this moment, but I felt the need to add balance to the view.)

(And by the way again. I do feel sorry for the abductors, and would forgive them from the safe distance at which I stand. But they committed a crime with intent to harm. The parents made a mistake in scale- how far you can go from your toddler and have him or her be safe- but with no intent to harm or even neglect.)
05-20-2007 09:51 PM
mammal_mama
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I would ask for a little more compassion from anyone who claimed the parents, in effect, kidnapped the kid. And I am glad others here thought the same thing in reaction to reading that line.
I got the impression the "they" the poster used was actually referring to the abductors, but the comment was unfortunately worded in such a way that it could easily be read in the way some of you did.

Okay ... a call for compassion for the people who interpreted the "they" as meaning the parents, as well as for the poster who I don't think meant it the way some took it.

And a call for compassion for me if I read her post wrong and she really DID mean the parents.
05-20-2007 07:43 PM
mummyto3girls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonprysm View Post
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko. : The words I have for you, I can't say here.


THey leave their kid in the hotel room!!!!! Why should I pity the parents????
05-20-2007 07:37 PM
monkey's mom Sigh. But it wasn't just a, "Hey, do you think you find a little compassion for these people."

She said that she would violate the UA with what she had to say to another member. She called the abductor "a sicko."

Another poster agreed and said that AP and GD obviously didn't extend to adults.

I'm just saying that seems kind of odd given that the other member and the abductor are probably also adults--but it seems OK to not have compassion for them.

And I'm just wondering how people would feel if someone said, "You don't have compassion for the abductor?? What kind of monster are you?"

Does that make sense?
05-20-2007 07:26 PM
carriebft
Quote:
I was reacting to a call for compassion toward the parents.
I would ask for a little more compassion from anyone who claimed the parents, in effect, kidnapped the kid. And I am glad others here thought the same thing in reaction to reading that line.
05-20-2007 07:23 PM
monkey's mom I was reacting to a call for compassion toward the parents.

A call, which in and of itself, did not seem very compassionate to those it was directed at nor the abductor.

I'm sure there are people out there who would say the abductor deserves pity or compassion to be in a place where he would do these things. That horrible things have probably befallen him in his lifetime.

So, I'm wondering how folks who would categorize him as "a sicko," would feel if people were criticizing them for not feeling compassion toward him?

I just think we're all entitled to our reactions about this w/out being criticized for feeling the "wrong" things.

I certainly don't think we all need to agree.
05-20-2007 07:13 PM
carriebft
Quote:
I'm not trying to compare the abductor and the parents' actions.

I'm more trying to compare peoples' reactions to them.
YOu seemed to be saying. "the sicko did something reprehensible" "The parents, too, did something reprehensible." (without further qualifying that just because its the same word doesn't mean its comparible or even close to the same thing) The two posts you quoted were reacting to a statement in which the poster seemed to claim that the parents basically kidnapped the kid through their actions. The post blamed the parents for what happened.


Which, as an aside, I don't get at all. Who is to say that if they were in the room, this would not have happened? Perhaps the kidnapper would have violently took the child even with them there.
05-20-2007 07:07 PM
monkey's mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I don't think the comparison can be made. They misjudged a situation, they made a mistake...they didn't maliciously plot to hurt their children. The 'sicko' did. I see no comparison.

The parents and the perpetrator are not partners in this crime.
I'm not trying to compare the abductor and the parents' actions.

I'm more trying to compare peoples' reactions to them.
05-20-2007 07:00 PM
carriebft
Quote:
But, you don't feel compassion for the "sicko."

Which I can understand, but what if someone was telling you the above b/c you don't feel "pity" for the abductor?

Because you think he did something terrible and reprehensible?

I think some of us feel like that about the parents' actions, too.
I don't think the comparison can be made. They misjudged a situation, they made a mistake...they didn't maliciously plot to hurt their children. The 'sicko' did. I see no comparison.

The parents and the perpetrator are not partners in this crime.
05-20-2007 06:41 PM
monkey's mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonprysm View Post
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko. : The words I have for you, I can't say here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kymholly View Post
My thoughts exactly.

Wow.

Attachment parenting and gentle discipline are concepts that begin & end with children, I guess. Too bad that they don't necessarily translate into compassion for adults.
But, you don't feel compassion for the "sicko."

Which I can understand, but what if someone was telling you the above b/c you don't feel "pity" for the abductor?

Because you think he did something terrible and reprehensible?

I think some of us feel like that about the parents' actions, too.
05-20-2007 06:38 PM
*LoveBugMama*
Quote:
Originally Posted by kymholly View Post
My thoughts exactly.

Wow.

Attachment parenting and gentle discipline are concepts that begin & end with children, I guess. Too bad that they don't necessarily translate into compassion for adults.
Yeah... This thread makes me sad.
05-20-2007 06:22 PM
*LoveBugMama*
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44 View Post
You are "radically" mistaken


The British may not be blaming the parents, but DH who just returned from a trip to Spain and Portugal (where this occurred) reports that the media there AND the "person on the street" is 100 percent blaming the parents for being so selfish as to leave their kids alone so that they could have dinner!

So saying that "Europeans" are not blaiming the parents and don't feel this bevhior was neglectful is simply not correct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18726957/
Here in Norway the media is NOT blaming the parents. Not at all. And "the person on the street" isn`t either. Not in a big scale, anyway.
05-20-2007 05:03 PM
kymholly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonprysm View Post
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko. : The words I have for you, I can't say here.
My thoughts exactly.

Wow.

Attachment parenting and gentle discipline are concepts that begin & end with children, I guess. Too bad that they don't necessarily translate into compassion for adults.
05-20-2007 02:24 PM
Moonprysm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mummyto3girls View Post
I will never let my kids alone in a hotel room, never.

In this case, i don't pity the parents I'm afraid for the child, becuase of their irresponsability they kidnapped their daughter.
And about culture, my husband is British as well and he will never let the kids alone in the hotel room:
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko. : The words I have for you, I can't say here.
05-19-2007 08:31 PM
mummyto3girls I will never let my kids alone in a hotel room, never.

In this case, i don't pity the parents I'm afraid for the child, becuase of their irresponsability they kidnapped their daughter.
And about culture, my husband is British as well and he will never let the kids alone in the hotel room:
05-19-2007 08:18 PM
dubfam Madskye...I was wondering if anyone would have the courage to say that they might see themselves doing something similar to the Mcanns.

I just cant believe how unsympathetic some people are being.:
My DS just turned 4 on April 2nd and I just don't know how I could even keep breathing if something like this happened to him. I feel so bad for this poor family. I really hope they find Maddie.
05-19-2007 06:40 PM
madskye My heart totally goes out to Maddie's parents. I agree with the poster about "degree of risk"--obviously, to them, it seemed reasonable to go for dinner. And maybe their comfort level is higher than many other posters but they felt that they were close enough/the hotel was secure enough that this was okay.

I just grieve for them. No one should have to go what they are going through right now.

That said, I might have done something similar. We go to a B&B in Stowe, Vt every year, and I would have felt VERY comfortable leaving my little girl (also named Maddie) in a room with siblings while we were downstairs, eating.
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