What causes the DTaP scream? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
it says:

Signs and symptoms such as high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanel

"and" is typically an inclusive term.
Oh, but that was in the 80's. Read below that. Today, the government claims:

The following clinical features alone, or in combination, do not demonstrate an acute encephalopathy or a significant change in either mental status or level of consciousness as described above:

Sleepiness
Irritability (fussiness)
High-pitched and unusual screaming
Persistent inconsolable crying
Bulging fontanelle


TRANSLATION: This is not a contraindication to further vaccination.
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#32 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 04:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post
Oh, but that was in the 80's. Read below that. Today, the government claims:

The following clinical features alone, or in combination, do not demonstrate an acute encephalopathy or a significant change in either mental status or level of consciousness as described above:

Sleepiness
Irritability (fussiness)
High-pitched and unusual screaming
Persistent inconsolable crying
Bulging fontanelle


TRANSLATION: This is not a contraindication to further vaccination.
VAERS (cdc vaccination adverse event reporting system) DOES list these as reportable events following DTap vaccine.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a


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#33 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 04:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
VAERS (cdc vaccination adverse event reporting system) DOES list these as reportable events following DTap vaccine.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

What VAERS considers reportable and what the CDC considers a contraindication to further doses are not related.
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#34 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 04:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
it is my existential experience of the tetanus vaccination.
Oh, well that's the kind of scientific proof we were all looking for to convince us the vaccine was safe and didn't cause brain damage.
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#35 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 04:31 AM
 
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Oh, well that's the kind of scientific proof we were all looking for to convince us the vaccine was safe and didn't cause brain damage.
Hey I wish I could just experience something and then speak fountains of truth; but I got the tetanus shot myself and it really hurt. And I'm usually pretty tough.


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#36 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 04:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
it says:

Signs and symptoms such as high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanel

"and" is typically an inclusive term.
Okay, humor me. Here's a little bit on encephalopathy (not vaccine related). It includes a few statements with the word "and".....

Quote:
Encephalopathy can be caused by infections (bacteria, viruses, or prions); lack of oxygen to the brain; liver failure; kidney failure; alcohol/drug overdose; prolonged exposure to toxic chemical (solvents, paints, industrial chemicals, drugs, radiation); metabolic diseases; brain tumor; increased intracranial pressure; and poor nutrition.
So are they saying that ALL of those things must be present simultaneously to produce encephalopathy? After all, they did say "and".

Quote:
The major related causes of death include sepsis, circulatory collapse, and brain failure...
So are they saying that when people die from encephalopathy, they die from sepsis, circulatory collapse AND brain failure, all at once?

Or how about CDC information on the flu:

Quote:
In some people, the flu can cause serious complications, including bacterial pneumonia, dehydration, and worsening of chronic medical conditions, such as congestive heart failure, asthma or diabetes.
Are you telling me the CDC is saying that any time someone develops serious complications as a result of influenza, they get ALL of those complications? After all, they did say "and".

Your assertion that the use of the term "and" always means that everything mentioned is included under all circumstances or in every situation is...interesting.
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#37 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 04:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
Hey I wish I could just experience something and then speak fountains of truth; but I got the tetanus shot myself and it really hurt. And I'm usually pretty tough.

Wonderful, but your claim was that the pain is why babies cry for several hours after DTaP, not merely that the tetanus shot was painful for you. Two totally different things. If it was only about the pain, then ALL babies would cry for two or three (or more) hours afterward - unless your new assertion is that most infants have an extremely high pain tolerance.
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#38 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 09:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post
TRANSLATION: This is not a contraindication to further vaccination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummeting View Post
What VAERS considers reportable and what the CDC considers a contraindication to further doses are not related.
Exactly. Chronic arthritis is certainly not a contraindication to rubella-containing vaccines for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
VAERS (cdc vaccination adverse event reporting system) DOES list these as reportable events following DTap vaccine.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Where does it state that these symptoms are reportable?

It states that these symptoms (alone, or in combination) do NOT consist of encephalopathy or a significant change in mental status or level of consciousness. Therefore, healthcare providers are NOT federally mandated to report these symptoms.

The following clinical features alone, or in combination, do not demonstrate an acute encephalopathy or a significant change in either mental status or level of consciousness as described above:

Sleepiness
Irritability (fussiness)
High-pitched and unusual screaming
Persistent inconsolable crying
Bulging fontanelle


Oh jeeez, can you just imagane if healthcare providers were federally mandated to report "The Cry."
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#39 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 03:24 AM
 
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Just wanted to share my DTaP story:

My DH and I were uninformed about our rights to not vaccinate when our now 16 month old dd was a newborn. Our ped pushed and pushed, and even though we hadn't done any research at the time about the risks of vaccines, we just *knew* that it didn't feel right.
Up until her 2 month doc visit, our baby girl had a very mild cry and never got worked up into screaming or full-our crying. I bf on demand, nursed her to sleep, and wore her constantly. We were completely unaware that the 2 month shots would change her cry and - literally - her disposition!
After we were bullied into accepting the shots I sat on the other side of the room with my shirt off, ready to bf as soon as they nurse was done poking my poor dd. DH held her little hands and my heart ripped in half when I heard my quiet, calm little newborn scream her head off the instant the first needle pierced her skin. She screamed, uncontrollably and inconsollably, for 20 minutes after the injections were done. She wouldn't take my breast, she was rigid and red and absolutely terrifying. The whole time I was trying to stay calm for her, but at one point I shouted "These f*&$'ers will NOT do this to my child again!". I KNOW that the staff could hear us, could hear my child screaming for that long period of time - yet NO ONE came to see if things were alright. In fact, when we had finally calmed her down and I had nursed her for 30 minutes they were closing up the office for the night and our pediatrician actually had the balls to say to us, smirking, "Well, did you survive?". I almost punched her right there. No one even bothered to ask us if she was okay, or if there had been any adverse reactions. In fact, the smirking ped said "Oh, the crying is just normal- you'll get used to it with each round of shots!".

Afterwards, DH and I commented over and over again to our families and friends that our daughter's cry had changed overnight. She was less easy to console, she was more irritable in general, and instead of her mild baby crying she'd react to things with that horrible screaming. Whether it was hunger, gas, overstimulation, heat or cold, dd would scream. People laugh when we say that a bit of our daughter's innocence was stolen that day, but that's what it feels like to me.

Only now, 16 months later and 6 months into my pregnancy with dd#2, are we aware of the risks. That DTaP scream is real...not "only in my mind", as some relatives insist.

Kier: wife to Jared, mama to Emma ('05), Savannah ('07), and our newest little love Reid (June 30, '09) -intact because of all of YOU! I had an ecstatic birth, at home in the water!
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#40 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 03:57 AM
 
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This may make you feel better? We delayed vax's until DD was 9 mo, I wanted to go longer, but DH is adament about her getting them at some point, so we figured if we started now, if we HAD to put her in daycare it wouldn't be too big of a deal? (we were wrong, daycares require some vax's that she will NOT be getting!) Clara didn't cry until after they took out the needle, she cried for about 5 minutes, like she does anytime she hurts herself, and then showed no other signs of problems, and believe me I was looking! I was terrified my baby would be different forever. I'm not saying to vax, I'm not saying that it doesn't change babies, I'm just saying that my baby is okay for now as far as we can tell, so your's probably will be too! SO my point is, what's done is done, don't beat yourself up. Now you can make a better choice for your family. HTH!

Mama to Clara 5/2/06, & Anna 11/4/08 and wife to Dan 6/8/02
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#41 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 04:01 AM
 
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I agree that *probably* not every single baby vax'd is going to have a serious or noticeable effect.....however, I do believe that many autoimmune issues that show up later in life can be a direct result of immunizations early in life. The side effects of vax's dont always show up in the crib......they can show up at any time in one's life

Here's me I married then we had dd15 , dd11 , ds10 , and then and now we and I blog!
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#42 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by savvybabygrace View Post
Just wanted to share my DTaP story:

My DH and I were uninformed about our rights to not vaccinate when our now 16 month old dd was a newborn. Our ped pushed and pushed, and even though we hadn't done any research at the time about the risks of vaccines, we just *knew* that it didn't feel right.
Up until her 2 month doc visit, our baby girl had a very mild cry and never got worked up into screaming or full-our crying. I bf on demand, nursed her to sleep, and wore her constantly. We were completely unaware that the 2 month shots would change her cry and - literally - her disposition!
After we were bullied into accepting the shots I sat on the other side of the room with my shirt off, ready to bf as soon as they nurse was done poking my poor dd. DH held her little hands and my heart ripped in half when I heard my quiet, calm little newborn scream her head off the instant the first needle pierced her skin. She screamed, uncontrollably and inconsollably, for 20 minutes after the injections were done. She wouldn't take my breast, she was rigid and red and absolutely terrifying. The whole time I was trying to stay calm for her, but at one point I shouted "These f*&$'ers will NOT do this to my child again!". I KNOW that the staff could hear us, could hear my child screaming for that long period of time - yet NO ONE came to see if things were alright. In fact, when we had finally calmed her down and I had nursed her for 30 minutes they were closing up the office for the night and our pediatrician actually had the balls to say to us, smirking, "Well, did you survive?". I almost punched her right there. No one even bothered to ask us if she was okay, or if there had been any adverse reactions. In fact, the smirking ped said "Oh, the crying is just normal- you'll get used to it with each round of shots!".

Afterwards, DH and I commented over and over again to our families and friends that our daughter's cry had changed overnight. She was less easy to console, she was more irritable in general, and instead of her mild baby crying she'd react to things with that horrible screaming. Whether it was hunger, gas, overstimulation, heat or cold, dd would scream. People laugh when we say that a bit of our daughter's innocence was stolen that day, but that's what it feels like to me.

Only now, 16 months later and 6 months into my pregnancy with dd#2, are we aware of the risks. That DTaP scream is real...not "only in my mind", as some relatives insist.

So sorry...your story took me back to when my ds got his shots: He did not have the scream...but his temperment changed. He was never quite the same.

I thank God for my sister and MDC. I never would have know about the dangers of vaccines.

And to the other poster who did not see an immediate reaction, sometimes the damage is not immediate. My son's immune system is a mess and I believe the biggest culprit were the vaxes. Anyhow, I would never do anything to my child that I did not feel comfortable with even if my husband did not agree with that decision. Vaccines and circumcision are a dealbreaker for me and he knows it.
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#43 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
it is my existential experience of the tetanus vaccination.

So in other words you're trying to pass off your opinion as fact. Thanks but no thanks. Perhaps next time you post something along these lines you could include something along the lines of in my opinion instead of presenting it as fact.
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#44 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TxMominCT View Post
This may make you feel better? We delayed vax's until DD was 9 mo, I wanted to go longer, but DH is adament about her getting them at some point, so we figured if we started now, if we HAD to put her in daycare it wouldn't be too big of a deal? (we were wrong, daycares require some vax's that she will NOT be getting!) Clara didn't cry until after they took out the needle, she cried for about 5 minutes, like she does anytime she hurts herself, and then showed no other signs of problems, and believe me I was looking! I was terrified my baby would be different forever. I'm not saying to vax, I'm not saying that it doesn't change babies, I'm just saying that my baby is okay for now as far as we can tell, so your's probably will be too! SO my point is, what's done is done, don't beat yourself up. Now you can make a better choice for your family. HTH!

I'm glad that your child did fine after her vax's. My 2nd did ok after his one and only DTaP too, unlike his brother who had the scream. I regret even taking the chance though. Because that's all it is is a chance. You have no idea whatsoever how your child will react until after your child his vax'd and then it is too late.
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#45 of 72 Old 03-09-2007, 10:32 PM
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Along with the famous horrid cry of death comes;
arched back
projectile vomiting imm. after milk (yes even breastmilk)
high pitched screaming like you have NEVER heard a baby scream!24/7
sleeplessness
soon afterwards; seizures
soon after that; stop breathing

and yes there is cerebral edema
(my brothers baby had this,immed after the vaccines)Conf. via CAT scan

The vaccine has done damage via the spinalcord into the brain.
These poor innocent babies get tortured by these lethal vaccines.
And yet it still happens every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TYLER:
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#46 of 72 Old 06-29-2007, 01:19 AM
 
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"Encephalitis without being vaccinated generally follows an illness.
When it happens due to an illness, the doctor will treat it in the correct way.

But when you call and give the exact same symptoms and the doctor knows the child has just been vaccinated, he will tell you it is a normal reaction to
the vaccine and will simply say to give the child some tylenol."

What the hell is up with that???!!!

Kochanyk, to you and your little one!



As a PP said, you have the chance to make different decisions now.
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#47 of 72 Old 06-29-2007, 01:53 AM
 
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I am so glad I found this forum! Our two month well baby check up is coming up and we are NOT doing any vaccinations. I have researched this a lot. My mom and my husband are both on board with me. We want a healthy person now and later in life. I am convinced that vaccines along with over-prescribed antibiotics are why me and my husband have terrible stomach problems now and feel like dog crap most of the time!
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#48 of 72 Old 06-29-2007, 12:29 PM
 
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I am so glad I found this forum! Our two month well baby check up is coming up and we are NOT doing any vaccinations. I have researched this a lot. My mom and my husband are both on board with me. We want a healthy person now and later in life.


Welcome! Stick around, you'll find valuable resources for dealing with your doctor and obtaining exemptions (if you'll need them).

With your 2-month appt coming up, the big vax push will likely begin. You'll want to read this thread to prepare:

"Name that lie ... and other scaremongering stories and quotes from your ped"

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#49 of 72 Old 06-29-2007, 01:51 PM
 
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Thanks! I will look at that thread. I do believe I have found a pediatrician that will be ok with me not doing the vaccinations. My alternative health practioner recommended him....so we'll see....I'll keep you guys posted!
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#50 of 72 Old 06-29-2007, 02:08 PM
 
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It's funny that the guidelines for contraindications changed somewhere along the way.It doesn't change the fact that if your child exhibits the high pitched sreaming fever,arched back,they are at risk for a subsequent more severe reaction the next round.In the 90's I had a savy ped who switched the older ones to a dt,not so with ds no 6,who's ped bullied me into more.The resaulting seizure disorder is something we live with.

I've learned to walk away from bullies,stand my ground and do my research.
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#51 of 72 Old 06-30-2007, 03:04 AM
 
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Add me to the list of DTaP screams with my oldest DS. Possibly not related, but he has been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome.

DS #2 will never recieve another vax! (He got the 2-month ones and then I got myself educated )

Ladonna
Mama to Samuel (6) Gabriel (4) and Jacee (just born on 12/15/09 7lbs5oz 20.75 in)
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#52 of 72 Old 06-30-2007, 02:10 PM
 
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My dd (my first) had that cry after her first shots at 2mths too. Once you've heard it you will never forget that scream. I was told it was normal of course. I had no idea at the time I could decline vaxes and my dd is fully vaxed and my ds1 partially his last were the 6mths vaxes. What I wouldn't give to have had the internet back then. The baby is vax free.

My story about my dd is similiar to savvybabygrace's story.

My dd is still VERY spirited at 10 yrs. old. I know she was damaged by vaccines and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive myself. :

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#53 of 72 Old 07-18-2007, 05:08 PM
 
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#54 of 72 Old 09-08-2007, 04:48 AM
 
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This is a great thread. I am SO THANKFUL that I found MDC when I did... just in time to avoid ALL vaxes for my sweet little chub angel. It makes me feel like I'm not alone, I'm not crazy. I'm listening to my instincts and going against the grain and it feels right.
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#55 of 72 Old 09-10-2007, 02:19 AM
 
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My daughter did not scream. She shrieked, like a dolphin, for hours in a unconsolible trance. It was the worst night of her life, yet I didnt know it.
She was 2 yrs old and she remained developmentally 2 yrs old for the next 2 years or so. After countless evaluations from various specialist, she is undiagnosed developmentally delayed.
She is 6 1/2 and she remains " unsually infantile" as one ped put it. She has a learning disablity, speech delay and social anxiety, poor fine motor skills, cannot write her name or remember how to spell it, poor memory overall, extremely impulsive at time, cognitive function far below age range.
I dont know what her end result will be, but I know my daughter was damaged severly by the dtap.
My son has had zero vax's.

Ely -Mommy to many
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#56 of 72 Old 09-10-2007, 02:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
The scream is called cry-encephalitis. The cause is infection of the brain from the vaccine virus/bacteria.
When the body is injected with virus/bacteria it can travel to the brain and cause encephalitis.
Encephalitis can be a reaction to any vaccine but the DTaP is notorious for it.

Encephalitis without being vaccinated generally follows an illness.
When it happens due to an illness, the doctor will treat it in the correct way.

But when you call and give the exact same symptoms and the doctor knows the child has just been vaccinated, he will tell you it is a normal reaction to the vaccine and will simply say to give the child some tylenol.





http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/ECont...IS+&cid=HTHLTH
Poor sweet babies.


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#57 of 72 Old 09-10-2007, 03:24 AM
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"High-pitched cry", "cat's cry", "cri encephalique"... is an indication of neurological irritation. The brain swells (encephalitis), causing an extremely painful headache which makes the baby cry in a high-pitched way. It sometimes precedes brain damage and death from vaccines with an affinity for chewing up the myelin sheaths of the brain.

http://legaljustice4john.com/index.htm

http://legaljustice4john.com/babyAlan.htm#crying
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#58 of 72 Old 09-10-2007, 12:56 PM
 
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DS had same thing at 2 mo shot (DTap and Hib) but it lasted for over a week poor thing. And I thought his colic was bad...this was insane! Apparently if they react to DTaP at 2 mos, the reaction the second time around is even worse, so if I were you I would think twice about it. Be prepared- your ped will try to tell you thats a normal reaction...and it sort of is (as in it happens to quite a few babies). But that certainly isn't a normal way for a baby to act nor is it humane for us to put them through that.
My son is finally a happy baby, but I was a worrywort for a good 2 weeks. And I hated myself for giving into those shots. Live and learn though, right? Hang in there
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#59 of 72 Old 09-10-2007, 06:50 PM
 
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I asked my ped this same question, and he suggested it was the pain from the injection.

Now when my first baby was a year old, she spilled scalding hot water on her leg (tipped over one of those old vaporizers) and even though she had 2nd degree burns and she still has a nasty scar to this day on the lower half of her leg, she cried, but not the scream that you hear about wrt to the dpt vaccine. And she didn't scream for hours either, mostly at the time of the injury and then when the drs were cleaning and bandaging.

So I strongly believe there is much more going on that just reaction to the sting of the needle or soreness at the injection site.

"If it takes a lab to make it, it takes a lab to digest it". Kris Carr, Hungry For Change
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#60 of 72 Old 09-11-2007, 03:41 AM
 
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I wanted to share that I've heard a true encephalopathy scream, and it was far spookier than anything I've ever heard - including the DTaP scream. My son suffered from an anoxic brain injury during a homebirth that has resulted in static encephalopathy and cerebral palsy. His scream was truly eerie - a weak, high-pitched, eerie wail that would rise, come to a climax with a slow, rhythmic warble, then fall. This would happen anywhere between a minute to an hour, and he kept it up for 2 days following the birth until we got him into the NICU. At the time I thought he was psychologically reliving the long birthing process (I pushed for 5 hours), because the only thing I could compare it to were the crazy sounds I made during the contractions. But little did I know - very, very little - it was far more serious than that.

He's a veteran of the 2 and 4 month DTaP vaccines, as well, and had the accompanying robust scream. And I mean high, shrieky scream - not the creepy encephalopathy wail. But he suffered no further injury and returned to normal after his vaccines. I have stopped all vacces following the second dose, however, until I have time to do more research (man, oh, man, I'm no Superwoman! Although I'm trying to fit it in with researching cerebral palsy, feeding aversions, gastroenteral issues, g-tubes, performing his physical speech & occupational therapies daily, and visiting with each of our 14 specialists!).

I tend to trust mainly medical journals and studies with an academic professional attached to them somewhere (and I'm well aware of the forum guidelines - I'm not here to promote anything, just to offer my research and opinions - besides, even our craniosacral practitioner cites sources), so I used PubMed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez - search "vaccinations" and "encephalopathy" to see all I've read tonight). But I'm super curious about these two articles, which have no abstracts. Has anyone read them?

1)"Demystifying vaccination-associated encephalopathy."
Lancet Neurol. 2006 Jun;5(6):488-92.
Sell E, Minassian BA.

2)"Vaccine encephalopathy: a myth collapses?"
Presse Med. 2007 Jul 27; [Epub ahead of print] French

From the previously mentioned search, the research suggests only an extremely minute occurrence of encephalopathy following vacces - one source cited 0.1 in 1 million. At this point, my concern is that I'm constantly taking my UNvacced son into an atmosphere (children's hospitals, clinics, etc) where these viruses are well and alive. After all, hospitals have a very high rate of communicable infections. From what I've read so far, the risks associated with the actual diseases have a higher incidence rate than the vaccines. And if you've ever seen a kid with CP very sick, well, they regress. They deteriorate. They go into the hospital for viral infections. It isn't pretty. We didn't need hospitalizations for his vaccines. But I do want to know more, please keep sharing. I've downloaded the 2007 charts from VAERS and will look into that sometime in the near future, as well as checking out the vac brands on that site and comparing that info with the vac packet literature.

Thanks, B.
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