What causes the DTaP scream? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The more I read, the more I'm convinced on no more vax. DS2 did have his 2 month series... that night he screamed- he screamed for an hour and there was nothing I could do- he refused to nurse, it was this eerie high-pitched horrible scream- he felt crappy for about 36 hours. Needless to say, we will not be doing that again with any of our children- period- no more DTaP. What causes that scream? He has had no noticeable problems since, should I be concerned still that the one shot will potentially hurt him for life, or would I know already? From what I've read if damage is permanent it is noticeable within days- is that correct? He has other issues that may be part of "syndrome(s)" some of which do have mental implications, but at this point he's doing great with "milestones". I so wish I could take it all back :
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#2 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 05:40 AM
 
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Milder forms of permanent damage would not be immediately noticeable. If a vaccine left a child with ADD or something like that, it wouldn't be diagnosed until he was a few years old. Plus, a vaccine could set a child up to develop an autoimmune disorder, which wouldn't become evident for years. I definitely don't think permanent damage is always or even usually immediately noticed. I wouldn't worry about it, though. I know it's hard, but I'm sure he will be fine.

Some people call that scream the "encephalitic cry" because it sounds similar to the high-pitched crying often associated with encephalitis, but I don't know what evidence there is to prove without a doubt what causes the cry.
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#3 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 11:59 AM
 
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According to Dr. Russell Blaylock the scream is caused by swelling of the brain caused by the vax.
So it probably is similar to "encephalitic cry."

But even encephalitis doesn't always cause permanent brain damage, and this was just one shot, so don't fret. Just understand you have a chance to make different decisions.
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#4 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 12:56 PM
 
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It has been established that pertussis and measles-containing vaccines cause encephalitis. For the purposes of VICP guidelines, onset of encephalitits from pertussis-containing vaccines is 24-48 hours and between day five and fifteen for the MMR, M, MR and R vaccines.


From the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program in the late 80's:

The neurologic signs and symptoms of encephalopathy may be temporary with complete recovery or may result in various degrees of permanent impairment.

Signs and symptoms such as high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanel are compatible with an encephalopathy, but in and of themselves are not conclusive evidence of encephalopathy
. Encephalopathy usually can be documented by slow wave activity on an electroencephalogram.


Today it reads:

The following clinical features alone, or in combination, do not demonstrate an acute encephalopathy or a significant change in either mental status or level of consciousness as described above: Sleepiness, irritability (fussiness), high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanelle. Seizures in themselves are not sufficient to constitute a diagnosis of encephalopathy. In the absence of other evidence of an acute encephalopathy, seizures shall not be viewed as the first symptom or manifestation of the onset of an acute encephalopathy.

FTR, they have put a name to this adverse reaction: Crying Syndrome or Screaming Syndrome.

Now to put things into perspective -- how many parents of the of the signficiant number children who have experienced this type of reaction are told to go to the emergency room in order to do the necessary testing for encephalitis?

In just a ten year period (1991-2001), there were 10,000 reports of unusual crying and screaming syndrome. Just in this period alone. Couple that with the fact that just a tiny amount of vaccine adverse events are even reported . . .
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#5 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 02:03 PM
 
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The scream is called cry-encephalitis. The cause is infection of the brain from the vaccine virus/bacteria.
When the body is injected with virus/bacteria it can travel to the brain and cause encephalitis.
Encephalitis can be a reaction to any vaccine but the DTaP is notorious for it.

Encephalitis without being vaccinated generally follows an illness.
When it happens due to an illness, the doctor will treat it in the correct way.

But when you call and give the exact same symptoms and the doctor knows the child has just been vaccinated, he will tell you it is a normal reaction to the vaccine and will simply say to give the child some tylenol.





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#6 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 02:17 PM
 
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Which component of the DTaP? We would like to get the T eventually.
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#7 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 02:23 PM
 
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DD cried (screamed) like that after one of her DTaP's.
I've never heard anything like it in my life, and I hope to God I never do again.
It was horrible
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#8 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 03:11 PM
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My eldest screamed like that for hours after his 2 month shots too. At the time I thought it was a "normal" reaction, especially since I didn't give him Tylenol beforehand like so many suggest. : If I knew then what I know now he wouldn't have gotten another shot then instead of waiting until he was about 15 months to stop. As much as it stinks, what's done is done, comfort him as best you can and keep an eye on him. You already know you're not doing any more shots so you're much further ahead of the game than I was in your shoes. As for the poster who wanted to know what caused it, I think it's the pertussis portion of the vax as that's the most reactive but I'm not positive.
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#9 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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Interesting if it is the pertussis b/c that sure seems like the mildest "disease" of the 3 to actually contract. The preventive is worse than the disease?
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#10 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 03:22 PM
 
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I had this happen to me as a child - luckily my mother took me to a friend of the family who was a Dr. and realized what was happening. Of course in his words {written on my vax card} "She is highly allergic to Pertussis - DO NOT GIVE".

I was fully vaxed otherwise
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#11 of 72 Old 02-19-2007, 06:24 PM
 
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My son had the DT, no aP, and he still screamed for hours afterwards. We will NOT be giving it to him again, I dont care what my husband says.

Laura wife to Chris proud mommy to our lil monkey (c-section 6-10-06), our other lil monkey (HBAC 3-08-09) Our next and last son (due by HBAC mid July 2011) and our angel (10-03-04). My middle son has many severe food allergies.

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#12 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 12:32 AM
 
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Thanks for this thread. My DS#2 had the DTaP at 2 months and had the scream. I read DH this thread today (he's sitting on the fence about vax's again-he goes back and forth) and he said absolutely no more vax's for now until we fully research. I think he's really on board for real this time...
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#13 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 12:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by maxwill129 View Post
Thanks for this thread. My DS#2 had the DTaP at 2 months and had the scream. I read DH this thread today (he's sitting on the fence about vax's again-he goes back and forth) and he said absolutely no more vax's for now until we fully research. I think he's really on board for real this time...
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#14 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I appreciate it too. My husband has also agreed! (which is wonderful considering he thinks I'm a "hippy")

Busymommy I *think* it's the "P".
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#15 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 01:41 AM
 
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Does anyone know of studies where they have documented the cerebral edema through imaging?
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#16 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 01:48 AM
 
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Gosh, I've never even heard about this. HOW SCARY!!!!!!!
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#17 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 02:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cello View Post
Does anyone know of studies where they have documented the cerebral edema through imaging?
Nope. They never did that with the old DTwP, either. The general assumption with vax reactions is that it's "normal", so those cases where there's permanent damage never get "captured" through any kind of imaging. Back in the 80's it was determined that the mechanisms and pathology behind severe pertussis vaccine reactions was not understood, and this has never been resolved. In the 90's a group of neurologists given the task of determining the validity of pertussis vaccine encephalopathies unanimously concluded that it was a real phenomenon, and they stated that the "detoxification" of pertussis toxins through formalin inactivation had never been systematically explored...and to this day, I don't think it has been.
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#18 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 04:45 AM
 
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This is the neurologist concensus from the early 90's that I was talking about:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation

In evaluating side-reactions to the vaccine, the following must be kept in mind: 1. Vaccines are not standardized between manufacturers. 2. For a given manufacturer, vaccines are not standard from one batch to the next. 3. Unless the vaccine is properly prepared and refrigerated, its potency and reactivity varies with shelf life. In fact, the whole question of vaccine detoxification has never been systematically investigated. Listed in order of increasing severity, observed adverse reactions include irritability, persistent, unusually high pitched crying, somnolence, seizures, a shock-like "hypotensive, hyporesponsive" state, and an encephalopathy. Since the neurologic picture is not specific for pertussis vaccination, its temporal relationship to the vaccination is the critical variable for determining causation. Although the majority of seizures following pertussis vaccination are associated with fever, it was the consensus of the neurologists attending the workshop, that these do not represent febrile convulsions, but are non-benign convulsions. The incidence of post-vaccine encephalopathy is difficult to ascertain.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
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#19 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 07:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Since the neurologic picture is not specific for pertussis vaccination, its temporal relationship to the vaccination is the critical variable for determining causation.

Although the majority of seizures following pertussis vaccination are associated with fever, it was the consensus of the neurologists attending the workshop, that these do not represent febrile convulsions, but are non-benign convulsions. The incidence of post-vaccine encephalopathy is difficult to ascertain.

. . . and let's just make these adverse events precautions to further vaccination (and throw in a little Tylenol for good measure) rather than make them contraindications.
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#20 of 72 Old 02-20-2007, 05:18 PM
 
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DD1 did this. I went in for her 2 month WBC (last one I ever did) unsure of vaxing her, I allowed myself to be bullied into giving her the DTaP. She screamed and screamed and screamed, she had been a colicky baby (later I found out her many food allergies) but this was a different scream, unlike any I had ever heard before. She could not be calmed down, and sounded like she was in serious pain. When she finally stopped screaming, she just passed out. DD1 never slept, she took 20 minute cat naps as an infant, and was constantly attached to the breast. She slept for almost 2 days, I could barely get her to nurse, she was completely out of it. I started my vax research then and my DC will never receive another vax.


DD1 is 4 years old, she is an intense child, if I took her into a doc I'm sure that she would be dxed as ADHD, she wears out DH who had received a ADD dx as a child. She is a smart child, she doesn't miss much, just a handful. I have absolutely no doubt that if I had allowed DD1 to receive another DTaP that she would of continued to have more severe vax reactions.


DD1 has had pertussis along with infant DD2, I am far more terrified of the vax then the disease it's self.

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#21 of 72 Old 03-07-2007, 10:47 PM
 
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Some more extreme theories have been asserted, but I would just like to point out that the tetanus shot is very painful--and painful for several hours after...
This is why babies cry from DTap most of the time.


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#22 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
Some more extreme theories have been asserted, but I would just like to point out that the tetanus shot is very painful--and painful for several hours after...
This is why babies cry from DTap most of the time.
Do you have any research that supports this or is it just your opinion? Thanks!
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#23 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
Some more extreme theories have been asserted, but I would just like to point out that the tetanus shot is very painful--and painful for several hours after...
This is why babies cry from DTap most of the time.
I'm sure it's not as painful as an infant feeling as though their head is being squeezed like a lemon by the pertussis portion, which has already been associated with prolonged and unusual, high-pitched screaming.
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#24 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jeanine123 View Post
Do you have any research that supports this or is it just your opinion? Thanks!
it is my existential experience of the tetanus vaccination.


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#25 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:18 AM
 
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it is my existential experience of the tetanus vaccination.
True, the tetanus is painful. BUT the pertussis causes brain swelling that causes the high pitched scream....

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#26 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:21 AM
 
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I've had a tetanus shot a few times...uh, maybe 4 times as an adult/teen - I was a little accident prone. In my experience, the tetanus shot hurts for a few minutes, but the true ache doesn't begin until the next day and lasts for a week or more.

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#27 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post
I'm sure it's not as painful as an infant feeling as though their head is being squeezed like a lemon by the pertussis portion, which has already been associated with prolonged and unusual, high-pitched screaming.
Long Island,

I noticed you didn't highlight the words "[and] bulging fontanel" the text you cite. I think that you are leaving out an important part of the indication of brain swelling. A baby cry, alone, is hardly an indication of a possibly brain-damaging condition.

No one in this discussion, although recounting that their babies felt bad, seems to have mentioned a bulging fontanel. I think that this would have been a remarkable symptom. Yet no one seems to mention it, or even highlight it.


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#28 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
The scream is called cry-encephalitis. The cause is infection of the brain from the vaccine virus/bacteria.
When the body is injected with virus/bacteria it can travel to the brain and cause encephalitis.
Encephalitis can be a reaction to any vaccine but the DTaP is notorious for it.

Encephalitis without being vaccinated generally follows an illness.
When it happens due to an illness, the doctor will treat it in the correct way.

But when you call and give the exact same symptoms and the doctor knows the child has just been vaccinated, he will tell you it is a normal reaction to the vaccine and will simply say to give the child some tylenol.





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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusyMommy View Post
Which component of the DTaP? We would like to get the T eventually.
Have you REALLY read up on tetnus? You might want to learn up on it more before you say that! There was a really good thread on it here not to long ago.

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#29 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
Long Island,

I noticed you didn't highlight the words "[and] bulging fontanel" the text you cite. I think that you are leaving out an important part of the indication of brain swelling. A baby cry, alone, is hardly an indication of a possibly brain-damaging condition.

No one in this discussion, although recounting that their babies felt bad, seems to have mentioned a bulging fontanel. I think that this would have been a remarkable symptom. Yet no one seems to mention it, or even highlight it.
Where does it say that it's a necessary symptom?
It's listed as one of a series of possible symptoms.
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#30 of 72 Old 03-08-2007, 03:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Where does it say that it's a necessary symptom?
It's listed as one of a series of possible symptoms.
it says:

Signs and symptoms such as high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanel

"and" is typically an inclusive term.


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