IF I decide to do the DTap, do you think Deptacel is best? - Mothering Forums
 
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#1 of 25 Old 01-02-2008, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It has more aluminum than one of the others, but supposedly (according to Sears' book) half the pertussis component than the other 2. That sounds good to me, since the 'ap' part is what scares me the most.

This is the only infant vax I'm considering. Still not sure I want to do it. REALLY don't want to do it at 2 months, though. 4 at the earliest.

Just looking for input/insight?
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#2 of 25 Old 01-02-2008, 10:44 PM
 
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Are you considering not doing the Pertussis? Or, I guess I should ask, what about the DTaP is important to you? Tetanus? Diptheria? or Pertussis?
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#3 of 25 Old 01-03-2008, 05:46 PM
 
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If you want less pertussis, maybe you could wait a bit and get just DT or just T, if you can find them? I'm not sure for what ages they are available, or whether they have other bad ingredients like aluminum, but it would be something I'd probably look into. (Haven't researched it yet, since I was less informed with my ds.)

I think I'd be more worried about the aluminum, personally, than the pertussis component. There's a new article in the current Mothering magazine issue by Bob Sears about aluminum - it's pretty informative, and might help somewhat with your decision?
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#4 of 25 Old 01-03-2008, 05:57 PM
 
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Is Diptheria a threat where you live? Do you think your infant will be sustaining dirty wounds that you wouldn't be able to treat?

I can only speak for myself, and to me, since there is no Diptheria in Canada, I don't think the cons of Pertussis vax are worth the pros, and even though I live on a farm, I have zero concern about my infant, now a toddler, contracting tetanus.... the answer, no matter what 'type' is, is no.

Homebirthing, homeschooling AP, gardening maniac running a working farm. No circ, no vax, no cable TV. EC'd and CD'd, tandem BF'd.  Cheese and soap making goat and child herder.
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#5 of 25 Old 01-03-2008, 06:15 PM
 
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There could also be travel reasons involved.

But, to answer the OPs specific question, we are going with the least aluminum available to us.

But I could possibly help more specifically if you let us know what aspects of the P are a problem for you. It would be a risk benefit analysis from there.

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#6 of 25 Old 01-04-2008, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The only reason I'd do DTaP is for the pertussis protection - I'm not worried about the baby contracting diptheria or tetanus. But being born in April, I'm a little worried about pertussis. Still undecided about the vax, but I read that Deptacel has 1/2 the amount of the pertussis component in it as compared to the others (I assume still giving the same 'protection') and because I also read that the aP part of DTaP was the more reactive portion, the fact that Deptacel has half of the amount seems like it would be a good thing?? Or am I getting that wrong? Again, I'm only considering this vax - I'm still in investigation mode. Thanks!
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#7 of 25 Old 01-06-2008, 01:58 AM
 
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I have been trying to find info about the components of the DT and T shots. It seems they all still have thimerosol in them. Has anyone found it without it?

We will definitely do tetanus in our house. Tetanus is endemic in areas that house hooved animals and my son loves our horse. What I don't get about tetanus is that adults only need a booster every 10 years. Why on earth do little ones get so many? It just seems to me that it's too early to give that vaccine when kids are so little.

I think we'll choose to hold off on the tetanus (or DT or DTaP) until our next baby is a little older. I didn't know enough about this with our 2 year old son. I feel like we dodged a bullet (I hope).
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#8 of 25 Old 01-06-2008, 02:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KiraMisu1999 View Post
We will definitely do tetanus in our house. Tetanus is endemic in areas that house hooved animals and my son loves our horse.
Do you have a link showing that? All information I've been able to find on tetanus shows that it is, and has always been, incredibly rare. Even in the day where every household had hooved animals, cases were incredibly rare.

-Angela
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#9 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 07:33 PM
 
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---snip---

C. tetani is present in the feces and intestinal tracts of horses, and humans. Soil contaminated with horse feces commonly contains C. tetani spores. Therefore, humans working around horses and horse farms should seek immediate medical attention when injured, especially with penetrating wounds such as those caused by nails. Following a properly administered primary series of tetanus vaccine, virtually all persons develop a protective level of antitoxin (1). Booster vaccines for adult humans are recommended every 10 years (1).

--snip--

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5012

---snip---

Tetanus is caused by a naturally occurring bacteria called Clostridium tetani. This rod-shaped organism hangs out in the soil, tending to do best when it's warm and the soil is heavily cultivated. It needs only a small amount of soil moisture to survive, so is likely to be more prevalent in heavier soils as opposed to lighter types that dry out completely in the summer.

The tetanus bacteria is ingested by horses and can be found in their gut and their droppings. The spores themselves are not toxic to the animals. What they need are ideal growing conditions, and the source of an infection is nearly always through a wound. The wound may in some cases be so small that the source injury can no longer be found once a vet is called. It can also infect the horse through injuries to a mucus membrane.

---snip---

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/tetanus.shtml

I've been around horses all my life. Every vet I've ever asked can state at length the dangers of tetanus in horses and humans. It would be different if they were free-roaming out in the wild like the mustangs, but modern horse-keeping on small acreage provides the IDEAL conditions for this bug to grow.

Also, vets state hooved animals in general are prone to picking it up from the soil because of the way they eat and their grazing patterns.

Even my holistic doc recommends this one vaccine for me because of my daily contact with horses.
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#10 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 08:20 PM
 
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Yeah, I know horses carry it, but the stats don't show an increase in HUMAN cases where they are around horses. The stats just aren't there. Not even pre-vaccine. The numbers just don't show that at ALL.

Tetanus is INCREDIBLY hard to contract. Period. Tetanus is everywhere. In the dust in your house. It's just very very difficult for those spores to be activated.

-Angela
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#11 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 08:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
Yeah, I know horses carry it, but the stats don't show an increase in HUMAN cases where they are around horses. The stats just aren't there. Not even pre-vaccine. The numbers just don't show that at ALL.

Tetanus is INCREDIBLY hard to contract. Period. Tetanus is everywhere. In the dust in your house. It's just very very difficult for those spores to be activated.

-Angela
Okay, then I might ask you the same question: got a link for that??

How about this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus

Particularly disturbing is the data from the World Health Organization that talks about the number of deaths worldwide by tetanus, mostly neonates. 300-500K.

Here in the US where the population is largely immunized, there are 100 reported cases each year with 5 deaths. Hardly a nuisance disease (someone else's words, not yours) and clearly, the vaccine works.

Same entry talks about manure-treated soil as the richest medium for these spores to grow. Horses, cows, goats, whatever. I'm not going to take any chances since I know how frequently I get cut or scratched, blisters, etc. All it takes is a little bit of spore to grow in an anaerobic environment like that to start producing the toxin.

No thanks. And certainly not for my kid who can't tell me yet that he's cut or hurt (or usually doesn't even notice).
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#12 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 09:30 PM
 
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Particularly disturbing is the data from the World Health Organization that talks about the number of deaths worldwide by tetanus, mostly neonates. 300-500K.
That's because healing umbilical cords are perfect anaerobic environments for tetanus spores to germinate and release the toxin in, particularly in cultures where the local tradition is to use mud to dry the cord out.
Also, neonates aren't vaccinated for tetanus in the US.

Ths is really old, but interesting:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0JE...cywM_cjGXKI-mg
ETA:
This one's a little newer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qEW...S4_Y#PPA385,M1
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#13 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KiraMisu1999 View Post
Okay, then I might ask you the same question: got a link for that??

How about this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus

Particularly disturbing is the data from the World Health Organization that talks about the number of deaths worldwide by tetanus, mostly neonates. 300-500K.

Here in the US where the population is largely immunized, there are 100 reported cases each year with 5 deaths. Hardly a nuisance disease (someone else's words, not yours) and clearly, the vaccine works.

Same entry talks about manure-treated soil as the richest medium for these spores to grow. Horses, cows, goats, whatever. I'm not going to take any chances since I know how frequently I get cut or scratched, blisters, etc. All it takes is a little bit of spore to grow in an anaerobic environment like that to start producing the toxin.

No thanks. And certainly not for my kid who can't tell me yet that he's cut or hurt (or usually doesn't even notice).
Neonates are not getting tetanus from horses. They're getting it from non-sterile birthing practices and practices like rubbing mud on the umbilical cord.

I don't have the links at my fingertips- but a great way to start is to look for tetanus deaths in your own family tree. Go back 2-3 generations and you should hit people who had daily contact with horses. Yet in my family tree there is not one mention of tetanus anywhere. And for sure, no one died of it.

Then go look at things like the Civil War. Horses everywhere. Untreated gunshot wounds in the battle field with horse manure covered dirt all over them. Tetanus deaths were STILL incredibly rare.

Tetanus has NEVER been widespread. Not even around horses.

-Angela
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#14 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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Not only is tetanus incredibly rare (contraction that is, not existance) but the tetanus vaccine hasn't even been tested for efficacy.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ds/tetanus.pdf

Quote:
Efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine
trial. It can be inferred from protective antitoxin levels that
a complete tetanus toxoid series has a clinical efficacy of
virtually 100%; cases of tetanus occurring in fully immunized
persons whose last dose was within the last 10 years are
extremely rare.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm

Quote:
During 1998--2000, an average of 43 cases of tetanus was reported annually; the average annual incidence was 0.16 cases/million population. The highest average annual incidence of reported tetanus was among persons aged >60 years (0.35 cases/million population), persons of Hispanic ethnicity (0.37 cases/million population), and older adults known to have diabetes (0.70 cases/million population). Fifteen percent of the cases were among injection-drug users. The case-fatality ratio was 18% among 113 patients with known outcome; 75% of the deaths were among patients aged >60 years.
Sooo...unless you/your child are over 60, diabetic and an injection-drug addict, you're not a high-risk.
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#15 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 10:36 PM
 
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We're getting off track here - lets remember the OP wants to do DTaP for the pertussis component & wants info on the safest vaccine to use. Lets please take the tetanus debate to another thread.

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This forum is not a place to argue against selective or delayed vaccination or debate vaccination in general. Such discussions are already hosted in the main Vaccinations forum and posts in that vein are most welcome and appropriate there. Our purpose for this forum is to provide information that is helpful for parents who have made the decision to vaccinate and are not seeking discussion against their decision but rather support and information to help them proceed in the best manner. Please respect this and post at all times with this in mind. Should you have any questions about the appropriateness of your post for this forum feel free to PM the forum moderator.
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#16 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 10:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JavaFinch View Post
The only reason I'd do DTaP is for the pertussis protection - I'm not worried about the baby contracting diptheria or tetanus. But being born in April, I'm a little worried about pertussis. Still undecided about the vax, but I read that Deptacel has 1/2 the amount of the pertussis component in it as compared to the others (I assume still giving the same 'protection') and because I also read that the aP part of DTaP was the more reactive portion, the fact that Deptacel has half of the amount seems like it would be a good thing?? Or am I getting that wrong? Again, I'm only considering this vax - I'm still in investigation mode. Thanks!
I don't see any real evidence that halving the P portion makes for a less reactive vaccine. I figure since DtaP is the only vax we are giving with aluminum in it, we mine as well go for the lowest amount and proceed from there.

I went onto VAERS to look up reactions to the different brands and Deptacel seems to have more reactions reported than Tripedia or Infanrix by how many children it is given to. (but infanrix has more aluminum according to the book)

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#17 of 25 Old 01-07-2008, 11:00 PM
 
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SO, in 2006, Deptacel was implicated in 1103 reactions. Infanrix was implicated in 1003 and Tripedia was implicated in 646.

in 2005 Tripedia had 746. Infanrix had 1043 and Deptacel had 1340.

Looks like another boost for tripedia, which also has the least aluminum.

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#18 of 25 Old 01-08-2008, 01:06 AM
 
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Might also be interesting to note the number of pertussis components per brand besides just the amount of that one component.
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#19 of 25 Old 01-08-2008, 02:45 AM
 
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I think no or less bovine serum was also a reason for Dr. Sears' recommendation. From what I see him saying on his forum, his reason for Deptacel seems more to be less aluminum than less Pertussis. And in his experience, seems to cause less problems in his patients (anecdotal).
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#20 of 25 Old 01-08-2008, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think no or less bovine serum was also a reason for Dr. Sears' recommendation. From what I see him saying on his forum, his reason for Deptacel seems more to be less aluminum than less Pertussis. And in his experience, seems to cause less problems in his patients (anecdotal).
Just to know where I'm coming from, it's right out of the Vaccine Book, "Another theoretical benefit of the Deptacel brand is that it contains less than half the quantity of pertussis components of the others. When it comes to vaccines, you might htink more is better, but that's not necessarily true. In this case, since it is the pertussis components that are thought to trigger most side effects, less may end up being better."

So that's why I am asking. Interesting that there are actually MORE side effects to this brand? Could it be because it's used more often than the others? Do those stats give that information?
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#21 of 25 Old 01-08-2008, 12:45 PM
 
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You can also see reactivity from inserts:

http://www.daptacel.com/support_file...DAPTACELVS.pdf (deptacel's insert)

http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf (infanrix)

http://www.vaccineshoppe.com/US_PDF/..._4620_4.04.pdf (tripedia)


So, for deptacel, for the 3rd dose, 0% had crying for 3+ hours, 11.7% had a temp above 100.4, etc
For tripedia, for the 3rd dose, 3.5% had a temp above 100, .8% had "persistant cry"

SO you could continue that kind of analysis to see which you feel might be more reactive...look at each dose and the reaction and the numbers for each vaccine. (MUCH easier if you print the pages )

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DTaP is the one vaccine that I'm considering for my son at 1 year. I read Dr. Sears book as well and wanted to get Daptacel but found out that my ped. only uses Infanrix. They told me that I could pick up Daptacel at a pharmacy if I could find it, but I found out that my insurance co. doesn't cover it. So that's out the window. Pertussis is a very bad germ, and although my son is past the age where he's at higher risk, I would like him to have protection. I've been through so much research and I've read lots of opinions, but I'm interested in facts. I think it's easy to paint vaccines as the devil when we live in a time where disease epidemics don't exist. But even back in '91 there was a measles outbreak in Philly and unvaccinated children did die. I think we just take for granted that vaccines do work and since we don't have these killer diseases running rampant it's easier to focus on the bad side of vaccines, which does exist. There are risks, but if everyone stopped vaccinating I really do believe that we would see a resurgence of diseases like measles and whooping cough (which still kills). I know this isn't a popular opinion on here, but through my research I feel that it's better to be a little more down the middle of the road when it comes to vaccines. And tetanus is another one I want my son to have protection from. It doesn't hurt when we live in a farming community and he'll be at his uncle's dairy farm working. I would rather have him protected than not, even though tetanus is rare. I had these shots (the really nasty DTP) and I'm fine. I am concerned about the aluminum in Infanrix, and I would like to see more research defining safe amounts of aluminum in vaccines. Not sure what I'm going to do about this.
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#23 of 25 Old 01-08-2008, 01:59 PM
 
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I know, but just wanted to point out what he seems to emphasize on his forum. There are several threads there if you are interested in how he responds to parents.

I do know that neither our local health department or out ped's office uses Deptacel. The health dept. uses Tripedia and our Ped's office uses Infanrix. I am still undecided about giving more than the one dose of DTaP that I gave. The one dose terrified me enough but as I debated the second dose, I called regarded Deptacel and neither carried it.
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#24 of 25 Old 01-08-2008, 10:53 PM
 
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I think fewer places are going to carry Daptacel due to 1)cost & 2)Daptacel isn't licensed for all doses. It's been too long since I read any of the info but several veteran public health administrators tell me Daptacel has greater efficacy.

This is a cool chart showing the various components of DTaP brands: http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/components-DTaP.htm


ETA- a couple of mos. after I posted this, the FDA licensed Daptacel for all doses so it may become more available. Daptacel & Tripedia are both made by Sanofi - the company is marketing Daptacel as having reactivity intermediate to Tripedia & Infanrix & having greatest efficacy.
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#25 of 25 Old 01-09-2008, 01:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraMisu1999 View Post
I have been trying to find info about the components of the DT and T shots. It seems they all still have thimerosol in them. Has anyone found it without it?
I haven't found a T shot without thimerosal (and it can't be taken until over 7 years of age, at any rate). Aventis apparently makes a thimerosal-free DT that is recommended for children under 7 years of age who can't have the pertussis component.

I think the primary series is generally 3 shots, over a course of 5 years (maybe? not too familiar with the regular timeline). I'd think you could titre test after 2, though. This is what I plan to do with DS who will likely be given the tetanus shot soon (at 7 years old).
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