URGENT! Help! Tetanus - ER Doctor put major pressure on us - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am in need of urgent info, and will spend most of today reading up.

Ds (3 1/2) is unvacc. He also has severe anaphylactic food allergies. This was not the reason he's unvacc'd, but sure was a lucky break considering his egg allergy in particular.

Yesterday he fell at a friend's pool and cut his head on a beach chair. It was not a rotting, wooden, nail-infested piece of furniture, it was just a regular beach lounger beside a pool at an appartment complex. The wound is about an inch long, quarter inch deep, and needed a couple of stitches. It bled profusely for the first half hour, and when it was cleaned out in ER.

Logic tells me the danger of tetanus is very small, but I need to read facts and statistics on that.

The ER doctor was incredibly pushy. I've never had this in ER with my kids before. She brought the vacc issue up over and over - and we were in there almost 5 hours. Dh was with me. He is not as convinced over unvacc'ing as me, but goes with it as I do all the research and over time he's seen enough vaccine damage in other kids to believe (now) that there is a link. However, I do feel that the decision in a case like this should be reached with mutual consent and agreement - if it's possible.

After a long while I reluctantly agreed to just the Tetanus, although it did not rest easy. However, when they came to bring the shot, they came back to say that it's not approved for under 7 year olds, so he had to have the full DTaP. After a long while, during which she wanted to describe kids dying of tetanus to me but I cut her off telling her that I knew what it involved - she left us to talk.

The pressure was immense, and she said we would have to sign something saying that we understood the dangers etc etc, although she never showed up with that document, but went to ask her boss, during which time the nurse came with the discharge notes. She had put on the discharge notes that we had to see our ped in 48 hrs for a 'wound check'. It was interesting that the nurse who gave us teh notes said she didn't understand why because it was usually a 5-7 day check to take out sutures. I have no doubt whatsoever that the ER doctor is going to be calling our ped to tell her to get us to vacc, and that if we don't show on Monday, they'll be calling us. I need to be cooperative as I sense a battle evolving here.

My ped is OK with our nonvacc choice, but I know would want us to vacc fully if I agreed. I know without a shadow of a doubt that she'll push the DTap on Monday.

From what I've read here in archives, it seems that the ER doctor was right that there's on Tetanus vacc for under 7s. I"m confused about the T with D. Is it available? How much less dangerous is it? I have 24 hours now to find out, and it's Sunday so I can't make any calls. Would I be able to find a different doctor who would administer jsut a DT, if that's a less risky shot, and how would I go about finding one?

I also need good links to the side effects and concerns on DTaP for dh. And stats and info on the likelihood of contracting T from a wound. I did all this reading when I made my non-vacc decision, but that was 5 years ago, and now I have these professionals on my back.

Anyone got info and advice? Links?? I have 24 hours.

Thanks!!
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#2 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 12:51 PM
 
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The first thing you need to know is that a tetanus shot given at the time of injury does NOTHING to prevent tetanus in that wound. What it does is generate an immune response, which takes weeks to months and several additional booster shots to develop, so that future wounds will theoretically be less prone to tetanus.

So unless this doc was advocating tetanus immunoglobulin (preformed antibodies to tetanus given only in extreme cases of risk), which she wasn't, then she isn't making any sense in the first place.
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#3 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:05 PM
 
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http://www.vaccinetruth.org/page_8.htm

I do not know if this will help you... also I think it varies from country to country which vax's are available. In Israel there is the DT available should the need arise for T vax, but the aP is not wanted....

So sorry you are going through this!


Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#4 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I said that to her, but her argument was that the body started developing immunity the moment the shot was given, and that it peaked over 2-3 days, which is the incubation period for tetanus, and continued to rise for 2=3 weeks.

Thoughts?
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#5 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:08 PM
 
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the wound bled, right? tetanus thrives in an oxygen free environment, and since the wound bled, it was oxygenated. i would tend to think that you do not need the vax at all anyhow, since the vax can do nothing to prevent tetanus if it is given at the time of injury.
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#6 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by liss_420 View Post
the wound bled, right? tetanus thrives in an oxygen free environment, and since the wound bled, it was oxygenated. i would tend to think that you do not need the vax at all anyhow, since the vax can do nothing to prevent tetanus if it is given at the time of injury.
Yes, it bled at the time, and we got to ER within 20 mins, where it was cleaned and treated.

The ER doctor was insistent that giving the shot at the time of injury does prevent tetanus. I need info on that too.
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#7 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:19 PM
 
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If your child is entirely unvaxed then the vax will do NOTHING for a current wound. If there was a tetanus risk then they would have offered TIG. If they harass you further ask why they are not offering TIG if they feel it's a tetanus risk.

I have not read a single case of tetanus from a head wound. They bleed like the dickens- this does two things- 1. it washes the wound clean and 2. it brings oxygen to the site.

Tetanus spores MUST have an anaerobic site to replicate and create a tetanus "infection" #1. How would there still be any spores in the wound after bleeding and being cleaned. and #2. How would they have an anaerobic environment with all that blood?

Ignorant dr. at best.



-Angela
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#8 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:21 PM
 
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Go get an exemption and take it with you to all drs appt, esp to the ER. This is the sole reason that I went to all the trouble to go ahead and get DSs religious exemption rather than wait for school- for the possible trip to the ER.

Not much sounds worse to me than worrying about your injured or sick child and then having to battle it out with drs over vaxes. I hope that our paper-in-hand exemption will be enough to shut up any harrassers, if not I'll be requesting a visit with a hospital admin, etc.

For this next drs visit I'd tell your dr that you're in the process of getting the exemption so there's no more need to discuss it, thanks though .
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#9 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:30 PM
 
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http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/?page_id=32#more-32

Rachel, mom to Jake (5/04) and Alexia (7/07) a surprise UC thanks to hypnobabies!
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#10 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:36 PM
 
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finding links for you. From:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00030666.htm

Quote:
Persons with unknown or uncertain vaccination histories should be considered unvaccinated and should receive TIG (250 units intramuscularly) unless the wound is clean and minor
-Angela
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#11 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:38 PM
 
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#12 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:48 PM
 
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The DT contains thimerosal and the DTaP does not. I can't advise you except to follow your gut. I don't think tetanus is a huge threat, but once contracted, it's not pretty. I hope it all goes well!
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#13 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by uptowngirl View Post
The DT contains thimerosal and the DTaP does not. I can't advise you except to follow your gut. I don't think tetanus is a huge threat, but once contracted, it's not pretty. I hope it all goes well!
This wound is not ANY tetanus risk.

-Angela
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#14 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 01:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
I said that to her, but her argument was that the body started developing immunity the moment the shot was given, and that it peaked over 2-3 days, which is the incubation period for tetanus, and continued to rise for 2=3 weeks.

Thoughts?
There's never been a single study nor a single case in which tetanus vaccine was shown to be effective in preventing tetanus in a nonimmunized person.
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#15 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 02:02 PM
 
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The DT is NOT approved for children below the age of seven.

In addition, the multi-dose vial formulation of DT has the FULL amount of thimerosal (mercury) in it. The single-dose vial still has trace amounts, as does some versions of the DTaP.

If they are to administer DTaP, absolutely find out which brand it is. Tripedia still has trace mercury. Infanrix and Daptacel don't. However, Infanrix and Tripedia have aluminum.

As for rates of tetanus, check the CDC website, google "MMWR" and "CDC" and you will eventually get to the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, which will give you the incidences of reportable diseases including tetanus. It's very rare, and it's even rarer in children, and even still rarer is death due to tetanus. It is treatable.

Oh, and : to blessed's post above.
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#16 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for all the fast replies. I truly appreciate it. I'll be reading all day now.
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#17 of 44 Old 06-22-2008, 10:48 PM
 
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I can say that we had met with the Immunologist specialist who worked for CDC, and MERCK, and he said that because we are NOT vaccinating our daughter with the DTaP or another other combo of it... that if it came down to her getting a SEVERE injury where tetanus was suspected than they would administer the Immune Globin.... But STILL NO SHOT!

Dont let them talk you into it!!!! Print things out for yourself too! I know that when I go in to have a heated argument in regards to vaccinations for my daughter I always go blank and cannot remember statistics, websites, or references!!! Print them out, that way its IN there face in writing!!!

I am sure your son will be fine My daughter has gotten cut on EVERYTHING this summer..... and still no tetanus, and still no tetanus shot!

Good luck tommorow!
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#18 of 44 Old 06-23-2008, 02:44 AM
 
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The anaphylaxis alone is enough to confirm not to get the vax. It bled, the wound was cleaned. I think the ER dr. needs to educate himself a little further. Personally, I wouldn't do it.
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#19 of 44 Old 06-23-2008, 03:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
There's never been a single study nor a single case in which tetanus vaccine was shown to be effective in preventing tetanus in a nonimmunized person.
Right.
I'm guessing somewhere in the past she invented the memory of hearing that the toxoid-induced immunity peaked at 2-3 days?
It might be right for people who've already had the primary series. Not for the previously unvaxed, though.

Anyway, OP...I totally wouldn't worry about that cut as a tetanus risk.

Out of hundreds of thousands of unvaxed kids in the US, we have about one pediatric tetanus case a year. Here;s a breakdown of those cases over a 10 year period:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ll/109/1/e2/T1

Yes, almost all of those cases were unvaccinated (the shot is effective), but horrific adverse reactions to the vax appear to happen at a rate similar to the rate of tetanus in the unvaccinated:

http://www.who.int/vaccines-documents/DocsPDF07/869.pdf

Quote:
In 1994, the United States Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that a causal relationship between tetanus immunization and brachial plexus neuropathy is likely, estimating that 0.5–1 cases per 100 000 TT vaccine recipients were attributable to tetanus toxoid (IOM, 1994).
Quote:
The United States IOM has estimated that the incidence of GBS following tetanus immunization is 0.4 per million doses (IOM, 1994).
And becoming immune to tetanus with the shots is a three to five shot series.
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#20 of 44 Old 06-23-2008, 09:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AurorasMommy View Post
I can say that we had met with the Immunologist specialist who worked for CDC, and MERCK, and he said that because we are NOT vaccinating our daughter with the DTaP or another other combo of it... that if it came down to her getting a SEVERE injury where tetanus was suspected than they would administer the Immune Globin.... But STILL NO SHOT!

Dont let them talk you into it!!!! Print things out for yourself too! I know that when I go in to have a heated argument in regards to vaccinations for my daughter I always go blank and cannot remember statistics, websites, or references!!! Print them out, that way its IN there face in writing!!!

I am sure your son will be fine My daughter has gotten cut on EVERYTHING this summer..... and still no tetanus, and still no tetanus shot!

Good luck tommorow!
Which sites would you print out to show a doctor? I think that is a good idea to print out something to keep in the car in case you go to the ER. I have done a lot of reading on this and feel ok not vaccinating, but I know if I was under pressure I would forget everything and probably look like a bumbling idiot...esp if my son was hurt.

Just wondering if you already have a list.

Thanks!
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#21 of 44 Old 06-23-2008, 11:34 PM
 
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Which sites would you print out to show a doctor? I think that is a good idea to print out something to keep in the car in case you go to the ER. I have done a lot of reading on this and feel ok not vaccinating, but I know if I was under pressure I would forget everything and probably look like a bumbling idiot...esp if my son was hurt.

Just wondering if you already have a list.

Thanks!
I would NOT attempt to argue it at all with a dr. Especially not in an ER situation. I would simply stand my ground.

-Angela
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#22 of 44 Old 06-24-2008, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I did feel like a blundering idiot in ER, but dh told me yesterday that it didn't appear that way. I just kept politely repeating that this was not a decision made out of ignorance, that I had done my research and that I was comfortable with my choice. I tried to keep it polite, but not engage in discussion. I feel that this was the right tack to take.

I also bought time and sought compromises - in the end the agreement was that I'd not have the shot, but would go home, do my research, talk to the ped and allergist, and take it from there.

I honestly feel that this is the best way to deal with these situations. I am a reasonable person, and I like to be informed. I don't make decisions lightly, and so I needed time. I did push the ER doctor to give me a time scale within which she would feel comfortable with me giving the shot, which she finally said was 72 hours.

Again, I then acted responsibly yesterday and took ds to our peditrician, who agreed with me that the chances of him having contracted tetanus from this wound was zero, and that the DTaP was not necessary for this injury. But by the time I saw her, I was well informed and had my notes in my purse just in case I needed them. As it turned out, I managed to remember even some complicated statistics from the CDC site, which showed her that I was serious and had considered all angles.

I wish I could be one of those people who remembers all this information, but I can't. I could just remember that DTaP has particularly nasty side effects, and that tetanus is not caused by minor wounds that bleed. But that was enough to have me trust my instincts - which I think is all that you need to do at the time.

Thanks to all who gave me info and links over the weekend. You made my job of researching very much easier!
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#23 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 12:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
I would NOT attempt to argue it at all with a dr. Especially not in an ER situation. I would simply stand my ground.

-Angela
If you are being lied to, and you know it.... I would stand your ground! It really isnt worth the fight, but if they are going to keep on pressing it, and you know what you want, set them straight! I cant stand most doctors, for the reason that they LIE and use the Scare Tactic... Not all, but most! And half of them really worry me with the knowledge THEY DONT KNOW! So why not educate them a little??? Half the time when I go in for an appointment for my daughter, whether we are seeing the Neurologist, Immuniologist, or taking a ride in an ambulance, I am on POINT... because I have seen doctors screw up MANY MANY times... and I wont let it happen again...

Believe it or not, I have faxed, emailed and mailed MANY papers, articles, and information to her doctors, to set them in there place..... Plus it got them to shut up!

I dont have a list right now. But if you go through all the threads and look at websites posted you will come up with quite a bit!

Its better to be educated and informed when you go into the docs office than not saying anything at all! When you act like you dont know, thats when they take advantage... thats just my opinion! Plus if you are like me, I am a scatter brain with a 2 1/2 year old and a 4 month old! So I forgot everything I have read, or want to say, and I get flustered!
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#24 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 12:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
I did feel like a blundering idiot in ER, but dh told me yesterday that it didn't appear that way. I just kept politely repeating that this was not a decision made out of ignorance, that I had done my research and that I was comfortable with my choice. I tried to keep it polite, but not engage in discussion. I feel that this was the right tack to take.

I also bought time and sought compromises - in the end the agreement was that I'd not have the shot, but would go home, do my research, talk to the ped and allergist, and take it from there.

I honestly feel that this is the best way to deal with these situations. I am a reasonable person, and I like to be informed. I don't make decisions lightly, and so I needed time. I did push the ER doctor to give me a time scale within which she would feel comfortable with me giving the shot, which she finally said was 72 hours.

Again, I then acted responsibly yesterday and took ds to our peditrician, who agreed with me that the chances of him having contracted tetanus from this wound was zero, and that the DTaP was not necessary for this injury. But by the time I saw her, I was well informed and had my notes in my purse just in case I needed them. As it turned out, I managed to remember even some complicated statistics from the CDC site, which showed her that I was serious and had considered all angles.

I wish I could be one of those people who remembers all this information, but I can't. I could just remember that DTaP has particularly nasty side effects, and that tetanus is not caused by minor wounds that bleed. But that was enough to have me trust my instincts - which I think is all that you need to do at the time.

Thanks to all who gave me info and links over the weekend. You made my job of researching very much easier!
Good for you! Doesnt it just make NO SENSE how they push the DTaP in the ER, or in any doc office for that matter? They push it for ANYTHING these days. I could go get a paper cut and they would ask if I had a tetanus shot... its soooooo stupid!

We are just guinea pigs to them!
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#25 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 10:48 AM
 
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250 units TIG intramuscle,anything else is useless.Glad I found this thread.If and when I have to contend with another e.r. visit I'll hopefully still have this tibit stashed in the mental hard drive.

Hugs mamma,it's hard to be put on the defense by well meaning,educated,brainwashed idiots,when in fact your only trying to advocate for your child.Give yourself a hug for sticking to your guns and standing up for not only your child but any one else who might be unlucky enough to get that particular e.r. doc!
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#26 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 02:02 PM
 
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ITA that there's no risk from that wound. Nearly all the annual cases are from IV drug users and farm workers, not little kids who get minor injuries.

The first time one of my kids had a "potential" risk injury I turned down the shot in the ER and the doctor started to question my choice. I told him what I'd learned about how many annual cases there are, who gets it, and what wounds are at risk and he admitted that was true.

I'm anaphylactically allergic to tetanus vaccination (and yes it is tetanus, not the pertussis part) and hell will freeze over before I give one of my kids that vaccine!
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#27 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 02:03 PM
 
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From my experience, you are lucky you were able to leave with your baby. Most doctors view not vaccinating as child neglect and would turn your child over to CPS asap.
fortunately that hasn't been our experience! we've had at least 6 ER visits (3 different hospitals) for wounds and never been given serious flack about our non-vaccinating.
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#28 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 02:17 PM
 
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I'm anaphylactically allergic to tetanus vaccination (and yes it is tetanus, not the pertussis part) and hell will freeze over before I give one of my kids that vaccine!
OT- did you have an ana reaction? How old were you? How many doses had you had before?

I know I'm allergic and was warned I could have an anaphylactic reaction the next time around...

-Angela
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#29 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 02:44 PM
 
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fortunately that hasn't been our experience! we've had at least 6 ER visits (3 different hospitals) for wounds and never been given serious flack about our non-vaccinating.
My DH and I never took our oldest three to the ER for anything.

Our last and fourth baby was another story. We first went when he was 9 months old and injured himself in the care of a babysitter; we went in when he was 12 months old after injuring himself in his sister's care to the same ER and were surrounded by seven LAPD and detained for several hours; we never got any first aide for his injury. Every single time we have went in to different ERs and were treated in the same rude manner. He is now 16 years old.

I have a personal physician and an attorney on call and a list of ER doctors that I have notified the CMA and would never let touch him again.

"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, OMS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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#30 of 44 Old 06-25-2008, 03:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
From my experience, you are lucky you were able to leave with your baby. Most doctors view not vaccinating as child neglect and would turn your child over to CPS asap.
Can you provide proof of this? Anything to back this? I have been reading alot of forums on vaccination and have yet to read one where non-vaccinating parents have their children taken away as standard practice like you are implying.
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