if you dont like it so much why dont you just leave? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 49 Old 12-17-2001, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i have been on the recieving end of this one a lot recently... when criticizing our govt and w bush.

is anyone else here offended by these remarks?

how is that patriotism anyway, telling me to leave... i thought patriotism was the value we put in our "free" country

id go on but my little girl just woke up
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#2 of 49 Old 12-17-2001, 03:25 PM
 
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.
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#3 of 49 Old 12-17-2001, 03:41 PM
 
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I think we live in a contry where my beliefs are allowed. I am always stuck by the comment, "Why don't you just leave." Why should I? Isn't that what living in America is all about? Personally I think it is valuable for me to speak into the "System" and make my thoughts known. We (dh and I) believe that we can change the system from within.

Thank you very much, I'll stay here.

PS Funny aside, how is this comment about leaving any different from the public breastfeeding, "can you go in another room/bf in the bathroom/would you be more comforatable leaving?" Hmmm, I am comfortable here, thank you very much. Much like the bf issue, I am hoping to make changes from within the culture.
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#4 of 49 Old 12-17-2001, 04:46 PM
 
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Grisletine, we have been talking about this a bit on another one of these threads and I would have to agree with Shoshannas mom that is usually because the other person doesn't really have the ability/energy/knowledge to get into the debate with you or deep down inside they realize something is very wrong too but they don't want to hear about it.

Ignorance is bliss!!!
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#5 of 49 Old 12-17-2001, 05:37 PM
 
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you know what.. we often talk about leaving the States (also because i am european), but since we still are here, i figured i ought to make sure to stay well informed and make a difference in all my actions. Was it Jeffersson who said, that if you want a country of ignorant and free you're asking something that cannot be..
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#6 of 49 Old 12-17-2001, 09:13 PM
 
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I think it was Mark Twain who said

"Love your country always. love your government when they deserve it."


I love that!
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#7 of 49 Old 12-18-2001, 09:39 PM
 
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A very dear friend (I thought) told me that since I was going to college on taxpayers money (I recieve financial aid, but hey, I've paid the amount ten times over in taxes over the years) that I should respect the opinions of the majority of taxpayers and support Shrub 110% and that I should shut my mouth and have the American flag tatooed to my chest. He actually said this to me and much much more. He totally tore me to shreds for suggesting that the government is not always wise or prudent in it's actions. Now, this man is a former Vietnam war protesting hippie gay male who once lived on a commune. Go figure.
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#8 of 49 Old 12-19-2001, 12:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Such a statement is fatuous and a reasonable indicator of the functional IQ of the person who said it.
And that presumption is indicative of an ivory tower mindset that refuses to consider that an intelligent, educated person might genuinely be interested in knowing why one stays in a country one abhors.

I was one of the dunder-heads in the other thread that expressed bewilderment at why some who vociferously object to this country's policies would want to live in said country. Let me spell it out so that I might be clear to myself... it helps me if I can see my idears in print so as I can tells if Ahm makin any sens...

1. I hates me the policies in China. Them policies are bad!!

2. If I was livin in China I would be hatin it.

3. Inasmuch therefor I would leave.

4. But ya'll are welcome to stay. I just can't figure out why you'd wanna. (scratches head)
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#9 of 49 Old 12-19-2001, 01:16 AM
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Oh my god, Merebear, I am ROFLMAO! That was a HOOT!

That said, I have to stay on the other side of the fence from you and agree that if everyone loved every single thing about the U.S. and it's policies, nothing would ever change and most citizens would have to admit that they find fault with this or that about the states.
Also, quite a few people who hate the states are extremely socioeconomically disadvantaged and can't leave.
And like I used to tell my ex, the punk rocker who wouldn't grow up, you can create more change working from the inside than the outside. Great quote, Chanley!!
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#10 of 49 Old 12-19-2001, 01:45 AM
 
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oh my---am I going to have to explain our Constitution again?
If you don't like it you have two choices--leave it or change it. Neither choice is better than the other. I'm just happy to retain the right to criticize it. Thanks, JMHO.
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#11 of 49 Old 12-19-2001, 01:48 AM
 
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I can kind of see both sides here. On one hand, it drives me nuts to deal with people who use "love it or leave it" as their knee-jerk response to dissent -- ANY dissent. I love my country; I just happen to disagree with my government on a regular basis, and when I do, I speak out.

On the other hand, I've encountered people (mostly on the far left, but that may be because I grew up in Madison) who really do seem to HATE the U.S. on all sorts of levels, and who have nothing good to say about it at ALL, and who hate anyone who has anything good to say about it. And in some cases I think they WOULD leave if they could -- have any of you ever actually looked into emigration? The U.S. is not the only country in the world that doles out a limited number of work visas each year!

This is kind of like the introspection vs. self-blame divide I've seen. On one hand, there are people (mainly on the right) who feel that ANY introspection about underlying causes of terrorism is equivalent to excusing the actions of the terrorists. This drives me nuts. On the other hand, there are people (mainly on the left) who really DO talk at length about how it's all our fault that the WTC happened, because we support Israel or because we're wealthy or because red, white, and blue are bad colors to put on a flag or WHATEVER. There IS a middle ground here. It is worth inquiring into the causes of terrorism, just as it is worth interviewing convicted serial killers to find out what motivated them to kill, how they chose their victims, etc. (the FBI's profiling unit did this at one point, and gained some extremely valuable information) -- and that doesn't mean that any victim of any serial killer has ever deserved to be murdered. See what I'm getting at?

The same thing applies. I guess my point here is that morons drive me nuts, whether they're lefty morons or righty morons!
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#12 of 49 Old 12-19-2001, 01:50 AM
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When one says, "Why don't you leave?" it makes a pretty strong statement -- one that doesn't really invite discourse and really puts the person being asked on the defensive. Maybe it is more helpful for inquisitive minds to ask what the basis of someone else's feelings is, or why they see things a certain way. Communication is much more enriching. I guess you could say it's all in the asking!
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#13 of 49 Old 12-27-2001, 11:17 PM
 
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"If you hate it here so much, why don't you just leave?" When I come up against this I try to reply "Actually I love it here so much that I'm trying to change the things I don't like!"

Anybody who has ever challenged others to "just leave", have you ever considered that they stay out of love and loyalty and HOPE?!

And have you ever tried to just leave and be allowed in anywhere else? Where are you supposed to "just leave" to? Just step off into the ocean?! What do you think, no other country has immigration restrictions?

Sorry, but as a recently naturalized citizen who is American by choice, not an accident of birth, and who, as a thinking individual, reserves the right to criticize government policy and certain social norms, while celebrating others, this is something I feel very strongly about. And yes, I agree -- this response is calculated to silence and dismiss, not further discussion. It is certainly not, as merebear suggested indicative of a genuine interest on the part of an educated, intelligent person.
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#14 of 49 Old 12-28-2001, 05:14 PM
 
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"Love it or leave it" LOL
I love this country, it's the government I'm not so fond of. Hey I'll stay they can go.
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#15 of 49 Old 12-28-2001, 05:44 PM
 
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I've seen Merebear ask this question. She made it very clear at the time she asked that she was saying "I don't understand why you want to live here" as opposed to sarcastically saying "Just get out then." She went out of her way to try to make that clear, so people would know that she wanted to understand, not offend everyone. If you had a problem with it, why didn't you just tell her directly?
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#16 of 49 Old 12-28-2001, 05:51 PM
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Daisy, where do you buy your hammers? Becauae you sure do know how to hit a nail right on the head. Very very good point.
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#17 of 49 Old 12-28-2001, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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actually i started this thread in response to a post i read{ that was not directed at me} by nursing mother..

quote:
"that comparison of bin laden and pres bush by daniel stolz was the most pitiful bunch of untruth ive read in a long time........ if people like him believe he is living in a terrorist country why not get his butt out of here?"

ive just heard this one a lot recently and it angers me.. i love this land and also wish to change it back to the way it was intended... a statement like that.. if you dont like it why dont you just leave ? undermines the entire concept of democracy, in my opinion.

i did not direct this at nursing mother because she is entitled to her opinion.. and it was not directed at me.
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#18 of 49 Old 12-28-2001, 11:16 PM
 
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We were born as a REPUBLIC <NOT> a democracy.

So why do only the conservatives get to be called close-minded, eh? I was raised by conservatives and my father's favorite mantra to us was to be free-thinkers and not go along with the mob rule. My parents were radicals of the conservative persuasion--no TV when EVERYONE had TV's, encouraging us to EXPAND our minds, get eurail passes and travel Europe, be involved in the political process, speak out against injustice!

So they also happened to not want the govt getting their grubby h ands on all their hard-earned pennies, believed in free-enterprise and small govt.

Close-minded? Not. Conservative. You bet.

Just wanted to clarify that NOT all conservatives are close-minded. Liberals have plenty of that themselves.

peace, moondancer who Loves her God, Likes her country, and leaves the govt alone.:
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#19 of 49 Old 12-28-2001, 11:46 PM
 
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I'd love to leave Unfortunatley, I have looked into emigration and its a lot of red tape and other mess. Hopefully, within the next ten years I will be living in a hut in a jungle or on a beach somewhere, half naked, barefoot and preggo Also, my husband wants to wait until his little brother is out of school before we disappear.

What is the point of the constitution if everyone is supposed to smile and nod to everything that the govt says we should?
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#20 of 49 Old 12-29-2001, 03:27 AM
 
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Right on sister. I get a wee tad tired of it myself. :


peace, moondancer who voted for Reagan when many of you were still in diapers:
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#21 of 49 Old 12-29-2001, 04:31 AM
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NM, I find myself complimenting yourself yet again. That is exactly what I like about you and why I think we get on so well. You are quite right, and I'm slightly to the left, but I am willing to consider all points of view, as long as they are presented in a decently respectful manner, as are you. You are truly the most open-minded individual I know and your conservative little voice is needed for the balance it brings these political/moral discussions. I so seldom agree with you but always look forward to hearing you.
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#22 of 49 Old 12-29-2001, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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nursing mother i meant no offense.. your post merely reminded me of a few times ive heard this before.
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#23 of 49 Old 12-29-2001, 04:15 PM
 
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Actually, we are looking at central and south america. We are talking about going with either the peace corp or wycliff. If we work with wycliff, it wouldn't actually be as bible translators. I would teach missionary kids. I am finishing up my degree in early childhood education now (I graduate in may ) Then DH is going back to school. We haven't decided if we are going to wait until he gets out or not.

For as long as I can remember I have wanted to live in a third world/developing country. I remember seeing an ad for peace corp when I was about 4. I always knew I would go away some day and do something totally different. I have a little sis who is adopted from El Salvador. She came to live with us when I was 12. She was born with Spina bifida. She saw her parents murdered during the civil war. She was then taken by soliders, tortured, and left on a burning trash heap to die. She was found by a nun and taken to an orphanage. She kept getting pneumonia. They decided that since she was crippled and worthless anyway, that the next time she got sick they were going to quit feeding her and let her die. A friend of my mom's brought her back to the states when he learned what they were planning. He collects supplies/money and takes it to El Salvador a few times a year. He has also started working with orphanages in the surrounding countries. I would also love to go and work in some of the orphanages that he is affiliated with. Those places are filled with disabled children who believe that they are destined for a life of begging on the street. It would be awesome to be able to help them do something more. My DH and I have built houses in Mexico for the past 5 summers. He would like to continue doing construction type work in other countries. Maybe then we can raise little jungle babies

So - while I do have huge issues with our government and the beliefs that we are conditioned to hold by the mainstream, that is not my only reason for wanting to leave. I feel drawn to go somewhere else, where I feel I can do something much cooler than I can do here.
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#24 of 49 Old 12-29-2001, 07:52 PM
 
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Both. I believe that my need to get away from america is part of God's call. I have no desire to preach or "spread the word." I feel that God is calling me to teach and my husband feels called to do something more hands on, like construction or agriculture or something. I have always been totally comfortable around children and people with disabilities. Both my parents taught children with visual impairments. So, I have never seen anything "weird" or "sad" about children with disabilities. They are children. Period. They are unique like everyone else. Most of the people I am friends with or have met do not share this same level of comfort. I feel that part of that is God's way of telling me that I should work with disabled children. Or at least "regular" children so that I can help prevent the furthur spread of children growing up thinking that disabled people are "weird" or "sad." Funny story - I had never told DH about wanting to join peace corp. He was raised out of church and with no background of what missionaries were/did. A few years ago he looks at me one day and asks "So, what do you think about the peace corp?" This came totally out of no where. While we don't know yet where we will go or with what type of backing, we both feel that we need to/are being called to go. Also, as fate would have it, when my Dh, then boyfriend, decided to come to church, he met the guy that is now his best friend. This guy was a missionary kid. He was born in Sierra Leone (sp) while his parents were in the peace corp and grew up in Zaire while they did mission work (sustainable farming) under a different organization. Other thing - DH is the son of an old hillbilly. However, he has always felt drawn to the hispanic community. He is happier when we are in Mexico (either vacationing or working) then anywhere else. Because of my sis and the connections through my mom and DH's level of interest and comfort with Spanish speaking people, we feel drawn to central and south America and Mexico.

What is New Tribes Mission? Where do they work?
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#25 of 49 Old 12-29-2001, 08:35 PM
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OMG, Treehuginhippie, I get all upset over so many silly things and then I read a story like yours and you know what? I need to spend my energy much more wisely. I can't thank you enough for the reality check.
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#26 of 49 Old 12-30-2001, 09:23 AM
 
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I am highly critical of many of our government's policies, but I stay because I am hopeful that I can participate in changing at least some of them. I (along with a zillion others of course) have worked hard to change a few, and it worked, so I keep hope alive.

Besides if everyone like me left, there would be no one left in the country except for folks who say stuff like "if you don't like it, leave," and we can't have that now can we? Ack.

An acquaintence once actually said of some folks she deemed too "left wing," "Why don't they go back to the former Soviet Union?" :
Let me just pack some undies and gas up the time machine!
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#27 of 49 Old 12-30-2001, 10:46 AM
 
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gas up the time machine! pretty funny!

On a more serious note -- missionaries have been resposible for the decimation of indigenous cultures and robbing native peoples of their heritage. Not that missionaries don't do good work too, in the form of humanitarian aid. But that's not all they do. It comes with strings attached in the form of religious indoctrination. They are guilty of teaching that their belief system is "the right one", rather than teaching the value of diversity and celebrating difference. I hope everyone who is all starry-eyed about missionary work takes this into consideration too.
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#28 of 49 Old 12-30-2001, 11:40 AM
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Just Wondering, in reply: I get upset over all kinds of silly, inconsequential things such as when my sister is being particularly bitchy or when the market stops carrying something I use. What struck me about THH's story was not that she longs to help people. I volunteer for an AIDS food bank bringing meals and grocerieds to AIDS victims unable to leave their homes. I feel like I am helping. Now, what made me feel silly was hearing about the orphan left to die tortured by soldiers. it is the smae feeling I get when I think of refugee camps or children being forced into slave labor to harvest diamonds. I have it so good relative to anything that I feel like a ninny for my self pity at times. I am not very religious, and I sure am not one for missionary work, but, totally off topic, two really nice Morman missionaries helped me change a flat tire once.
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#29 of 49 Old 12-30-2001, 02:45 PM
 
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I did leave, and I have spent most of the last seven years abroad, but current events may force me to return to America next year.

I just returned from two weeks vacation in the U.S., and it scared the hell out of me. The knee-jerk patriotism is worse than ever. Everyone's attitude seems to be "You're either with us or against us." Or, "If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem." I can't stand it. Bush is the first president that really seems to revel in being ignorant and stupid. Right now, anyone who disagrees with the government is considered suspect. What's next? Anyone that wears glasses or has a university degree should be put in a gulag?
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#30 of 49 Old 12-30-2001, 02:58 PM
 
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N.M., It is arrogant and bigoted to believe that it is acceptable to go to less developed countries and preach your ideas of what the "truth" is. Would you find it to be acceptable for the Taliban to come to America and try to convert people to their idea of the truth?

The most notable contribution of the missionaries has been the missionary position.
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