Is breastmilk vegan? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
View Poll Results: Is breastmilk vegan?
Yes 233 68.13%
No 82 23.98%
Other 27 7.89%
Voters: 342. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 07:42 PM
 
fastyfeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride View Post
Wolves, lions, coyotes, dogs, cats, tigers, hyenas, vultures, humans, etc.
I would disagree with this. Yes, a cow might be a biologically appropriate food for the above but a steak is a human cut of meat. What animals butcher their prey before eating, besides humans?
fastyfeet is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 07:44 PM
 
tboroson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Honalee
Posts: 6,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastyfeet View Post
I would disagree with this. Yes, a cow might be a biologically appropriate food for the above but a steak is a human cut of meat. What animals butcher their prey before eating, besides humans?
Many animals selectively eat from their kills. Humans have merely refined that tendency.
tboroson is offline  
#63 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 07:48 PM
 
JustKiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
*blinks*

Was the question ever answered?? It seems most people think yes - is that thought based on a philosophical definition of veganism, rather than the Merriam-Webster definition?

Quote:
a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products
If it is based on a philosophical definition - what is that definition? Or, is it the thought that it's not really an animal product? That breastmilk isn't really a dairy product?

The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience.
| @jovialady is Kiya ~ TTC 3 years & counting for a ~ Connsumte BookDragon|
JustKiya is offline  
 
#64 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 07:49 PM
 
meowee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How could human milk be considered vegan? 1) It comes from an animal and 2) It has a very similar make-up to other kinds of milk, just with a different ratios of fat, sugar, and a other things. But chemically it is just another variety of milk...
meowee is offline  
#65 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 07:51 PM
 
meowee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh but FWIW human milk is considered parve under kashrut.
meowee is offline  
#66 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:14 PM
 
FoxintheSnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: nak
Posts: 5,822
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Cow's milk, goat's milk, etc are not inherently nonvegan. The act of another species (ie humans) using them for consumption makes them not vegan.

Mother of 3, welcomed a new baby girl July 2011

FoxintheSnow is offline  
#67 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:16 PM
 
~PurityLake~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, US
Posts: 5,802
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I voted no, because obviously, humans are animals and breastmilk is an animal product.

Also, not all moms are vegans, very few, actually, so that makes breastmilk doubly non-vegan for non-vegan mothers.

Katreena, peace.gif 39 year old Alaskan treehugger.gif Mama to 1 hearts.gif and 1 lady.gif gd.gif
 
 
 
 

~PurityLake~ is offline  
#68 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:27 PM
 
~PurityLake~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, US
Posts: 5,802
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkerbell View Post
By definition, vegan means "to abstain from the consumption of products or by-products derived from an animal". Period.

So no, BM would not be vegan.

Your REASON for choosing to be vegan does not affect the definition of the word (ie: having to do with choice, being from the same species, etc).
I agree, and that is why I said no on the poll, and I hadn't read through this thread when I voted. I don't like to taint my answers with other people's opinions prior to voting.

In my dictionary, Vegan is defined as:
A person who does not eat or use animal products.

So I still stand by my answer.

I don't think it matters anyway, though, because we all know breastmilk is good for babies, whether the mom is vegan or not.

I do know that being vegan is often a philosophical choice, as it is for my sister. But that doesn't change the fact that humans are animals, and breastmilk is an animal product. I think some people are just sometimes vain in feeling people are superior, so what we produce cannot be labeled an animal product.

Katreena, peace.gif 39 year old Alaskan treehugger.gif Mama to 1 hearts.gif and 1 lady.gif gd.gif
 
 
 
 

~PurityLake~ is offline  
#69 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:30 PM
 
FoxintheSnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: nak
Posts: 5,822
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The UK Vegan Society(an extremely well respected organization among vegan) defines veganism as:

T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals

Mother of 3, welcomed a new baby girl July 2011

FoxintheSnow is offline  
#70 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:43 PM
 
~PurityLake~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, US
Posts: 5,802
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokerama View Post
The UK Vegan Society(an extremely well respected organization among vegan) defines veganism as:

T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals
see. breastmilk is not vegan, not even by the philosophical definition.

Katreena, peace.gif 39 year old Alaskan treehugger.gif Mama to 1 hearts.gif and 1 lady.gif gd.gif
 
 
 
 

~PurityLake~ is offline  
#71 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:49 PM
WNB
 
WNB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abi's Mom View Post
see. breastmilk is not vegan, not even by the philosophical definition.
err... seems to me that breastmilk (one's own, at a minimum) fits right in with the philosophy and way of living of vegans: no exploitation, no cruelty involved in its production.

I see where Jokerama was coming from with her post bemoaning all the silly "gotcha" arguments.
WNB is offline  
#72 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 08:53 PM
 
whateverdidiwants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Exiled in Bi-ville
Posts: 2,938
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm so sick of people who aren't vegan trying to decide what is and isn't vegan. It has nothing to do with superiority or vanity. To me, it would be the same thing as non-Christians or non-Muslims or non-Jews deciding that *they* were going to define what is and is not Christian/Muslim/Jewish/whatever.

Veganism a lot more nuanced than "avoiding animal products", and it's ridiculous to try to boil it down to a dictionary definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokermama
Cow's milk, goat's milk, etc are not inherently nonvegan. The act of another species (ie humans) using them for consumption makes them not vegan.
This is a perfect example.

In fact, I'd argue that human fingernail and hair extensions are vegan, and so is donated blood and plasma, and human organ transplants. I'd even consider vampires drinking blood to be vegan so long as the person whose blood they were drinking consented to it.
whateverdidiwants is offline  
#73 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 09:03 PM
 
JustKiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
I'm so sick of people who aren't vegan trying to decide what is and isn't vegan. It has nothing to do with superiority or vanity. To me, it would be the same thing as non-Christians or non-Muslims or non-Jews deciding that *they* were going to define what is and is not Christian/Muslim/Jewish/whatever.

Veganism a lot more nuanced than "avoiding animal products", and it's ridiculous to try to boil it down to a dictionary definition.


This is a perfect example.

In fact, I'd argue that human fingernail and hair extensions are vegan, and so is donated blood and plasma, and human organ transplants. I'd even consider vampires drinking blood to be vegan so long as the person whose blood they were drinking consented to it.
So it IS a philosophical definition, not a literal one. That's fair enough.

Literally - no, breastmilk isn't vegan.
Philosophically - yes, breastmilk IS vegan.

*nods* Seems to make sense - and is also a perfectly short answer.

"Literally, no, as humans are animals. But within the more nuanced philosophy/theory/practice of veganism, it is."

Now I have a smackdown for people who try to pull a gotcha.

Thanks.

The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience.
| @jovialady is Kiya ~ TTC 3 years & counting for a ~ Connsumte BookDragon|
JustKiya is offline  
#74 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 09:27 PM
 
whateverdidiwants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Exiled in Bi-ville
Posts: 2,938
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You're welcome.

I also want to add that kissing is vegan, as are certain sex acts that I'm not allowed to describe further due to the UA.
whateverdidiwants is offline  
#75 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 10:19 PM
 
candiland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Waiting for Calgon to take me away.
Posts: 3,892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Um, humans are the only species to consume large quantities of other species' milk for non-survival purposes. This is one of the inherent ideas behind taking vegetarianism a step further........ nothing could be more unnatural than not only drinking another specie's milk on a regular basis for non-survival purposes but CONTINUING to do so well into adulthood, beyond when baby/childhood milk weaning would naturally occur.

Again, we are the only species to do this. So therefore, one could rationalize that veganism is at least partially based on the fact that looking at nature and biology, as well as modern science, consuming mass quantities of another specie's milk products specifically designed to meet the nutritional needs of their young is unhealthy and unnatural.

So therefore, babies and young children eating massive quantities of breastmilk FROM THEIR OWN SPECIES is, indeed, vegan, because it is nature's baby food and it comes, again, from their own species.

candiland is offline  
#76 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 10:58 PM
 
CarolynnMarilynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
You're welcome.

I also want to add that kissing is vegan, as are certain sex acts that I'm not allowed to describe further due to the UA.
That really cracked me up. Touche!
CarolynnMarilynn is offline  
#77 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:15 PM
 
nicole lisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
I also want to add that kissing is vegan, as are certain sex acts that I'm not allowed to describe further due to the UA.
:

It seems the only people I EVER come across who don't believe breast milk and the above are vegan are omnivores. Every vegan organization I've ever been involved with believes breast milk to be vegan. There may be the odd misinformed vegan out there who doesn't believe it's vegan but they're in the minority.
nicole lisa is offline  
#78 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:16 PM
 
eclipse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Mexico
Posts: 7,439
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
You're welcome.

I also want to add that kissing is vegan, as are certain sex acts that I'm not allowed to describe further due to the UA.

But what about if you're jogging with your mouth open and you accidentally swallow a fly? Are you still a vegan then?:
eclipse is offline  
#79 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:34 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,687
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blissful_maia View Post


I thought that vegan meant that it was not an animal product (or animal). Like, cow's milk (or cheese, or yogurt) is an animal product. Aren't humans animals?
I think that is what we are trying to determine, what factors go into this. It isn't simply a matter of it being an animal product or not, and it sounds like the biology isn't the issue, it's whether or not it conforms to the ideals of veganism. I think the issue is if people try to use the fact that a mother breastfeeds to discredit her as a vegan, or argue that she can't raise her child as a vegan as long as she breastfeeds.

It might be rare, but I have heard of self-described vegans who do not breastfeed because of concerns about breastmilk being an animal product. And possibly vegans who do not wish to breastfeed could use that as an excuse. One time in a visit to PETAs website, they were advocating the use of soy formula, but I didn't see them advocating breastfeeding, so I kind of wondered. However, I'm sure most PETA members would support breastfeeding. Mostly I hear this argument with people trying to take shots at vegans.
Viola is offline  
#80 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:35 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,687
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
But what about if you're jogging with your mouth open and you accidentally swallow a fly? Are you still a vegan then?:
Some people just don't know when to be serious.



Viola is offline  
#81 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:37 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,687
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
I also want to add that kissing is vegan, as are certain sex acts that I'm not allowed to describe further due to the UA.
Don't be afraid to swallow!
Viola is offline  
#82 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:38 PM
 
momto l&a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokerama View Post
In my experience, most nutritionists know squat about veganism.
A lot of vegetarians/vegans I know know squat about vegetarians/vegans.

Seriously.
momto l&a is offline  
#83 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:53 PM
 
bellymama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: humboldt california
Posts: 2,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
okay, anyone who put yes...i am confused. it is an animal byproduct...meaning it is not vegan, right? i don't really have the time right now to go over the whole thread, so if anyone wants to breakdown the argument that somehow it isn't an animal byproduct, i would really appreciate it...thanks!
bellymama is offline  
#84 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:56 PM
 
candiland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Waiting for Calgon to take me away.
Posts: 3,892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Bellymama - here is why it is considered vegan -

Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland View Post
Um, humans are the only species to consume large quantities of other species' milk for non-survival purposes. This is one of the inherent ideas behind taking vegetarianism a step further........ nothing could be more unnatural than not only drinking another specie's milk on a regular basis for non-survival purposes but CONTINUING to do so well into adulthood, beyond when baby/childhood milk weaning would naturally occur.

Again, we are the only species to do this. So therefore, one could rationalize that veganism is at least partially based on the fact that looking at nature and biology, as well as modern science, consuming mass quantities of another specie's milk products specifically designed to meet the nutritional needs of their young is unhealthy and unnatural.

So therefore, babies and young children eating massive quantities of breastmilk FROM THEIR OWN SPECIES is, indeed, vegan, because it is nature's baby food and it comes, again, from their own species.

candiland is offline  
#85 of 142 Old 07-27-2007, 11:58 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,687
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by momto l&a View Post
A lot of vegetarians/vegans I know know squat about vegetarians/vegans.

Seriously.
Like the "vegans" who eat fish and chicken?
Viola is offline  
#86 of 142 Old 07-28-2007, 12:05 AM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,687
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellymama View Post
i don't really have the time right now to go over the whole thread, so if anyone wants to breakdown the argument that somehow it isn't an animal byproduct, i would really appreciate it...thanks!
No one is saying that it isn't an animal by-product. They are saying that a child can be vegan and breastfed, because breastfeeding is in line with what veganism is working to accomplish. Because it is freely given by the mother and comes from the same species.
Viola is offline  
#87 of 142 Old 07-28-2007, 12:19 AM
 
blissful_maia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,110
Mentioned: 183 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post
I think that is what we are trying to determine, what factors go into this. It isn't simply a matter of it being an animal product or not, and it sounds like the biology isn't the issue, it's whether or not it conforms to the ideals of veganism. I think the issue is if people try to use the fact that a mother breastfeeds to discredit her as a vegan, or argue that she can't raise her child as a vegan as long as she breastfeeds.

It might be rare, but I have heard of self-described vegans who do not breastfeed because of concerns about breastmilk being an animal product. And possibly vegans who do not wish to breastfeed could use that as an excuse. One time in a visit to PETAs website, they were advocating the use of soy formula, but I didn't see them advocating breastfeeding, so I kind of wondered. However, I'm sure most PETA members would support breastfeeding. Mostly I hear this argument with people trying to take shots at vegans.
Thanks for explaining. I think in that case, it's neither (simply because it can't be both)! Milk (whether human, cow, goat, sheep, etc.) IS an animal product, and therefore consuming it cannot be "vegan". But, on the other hand, it is the natural, and most biologically healthy way to feed an infant, and I can see how that would jive with much of the philosophy behind veganism.

I think that's pretty sad that some vegans wouldn't breastfeed because of this crazy question though, and I'm surprised you personally know people who do this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Grateful midwife and peaceful mama to four wonderful people: dd11, dd8, ds5
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and brand new dd 07/23
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
blissful_maia is offline  
#88 of 142 Old 07-28-2007, 02:42 AM
 
sunnysideup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland View Post
Um, humans are the only species to consume large quantities of other species' milk for non-survival purposes. This is one of the inherent ideas behind taking vegetarianism a step further........ nothing could be more unnatural than not only drinking another specie's milk on a regular basis for non-survival purposes but CONTINUING to do so well into adulthood, beyond when baby/childhood milk weaning would naturally occur.
I just don't get this argument. As I said upthread, humans are the only animals to regularly consume the milk of another animal, because we're the only one's with the ability. Most animals will drink another animal's milk if given the opportunity. We're also the only animals that grow crops--so what?

There are lots of good arguments for avaiding dairy products, I just don't get this one.

I do think that human milk is vegan. A person can choose to be vegan, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a mammal--and baby mammals need milk.
sunnysideup is offline  
#89 of 142 Old 07-28-2007, 02:55 AM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
I just don't get this argument. As I said upthread, humans are the only animals to regularly consume the milk of another animal, because we're the only one's with the ability. Most animals will drink another animal's milk if given the opportunity.
This is very true. Animals exploit calories, pure and simple. The more calories you can get, the better your species does. If they could figure out a way to regularly access the calories in other species' breastmilk, they would undoubtedly do so, and do so throughout their lives. I am sure the large predators drink the milk found in full udders of prey animals. Other species' ova (eggs) are one of the most common food sources across the predator spectrum, after all, so there's no reason to think that they wouldn't use milk if they could get it. (By the way, I've never seen an animal refuse fresh milk when offered--even the horses would eagerly drink it.)
thekimballs is offline  
#90 of 142 Old 07-28-2007, 02:59 AM
 
moondiapers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lakeport, California
Posts: 5,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'd say "no" since we're animals and it's an animal milk. But I don't think that's bad either. Infants aren't meant to be vegan, they are meant to have mama's milk They can be vegan when weaned.

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
moondiapers is offline  
Reply


User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Online Users: 1,105

10 members and 1,095 guests
Abigail1985 , airzatix3 , emmy526 , idler , iryna.prokh , kathymuggle , KerriB , lauritagoddess , lmaraial57
Most users ever online was 21,860, 06-22-2018 at 09:45 PM.