More on the SB277 RICO lawsuit - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 10 Old 09-20-2016, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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More on the SB277 RICO lawsuit

If you haven't been following this awesome strategy/lawsuit by Travis Middleton, here is the lowdown....

http://bolenreport.com/private-citiz...ernment-sb277/

The full 71-page brief:

http://www.cafepeyote.com/files/RICO..._Amended_2.pdf

The GoFundMe account:

https://www.gofundme.com/2abvdy58

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#2 of 10 Old 09-20-2016, 02:12 PM
 
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Well, that is very interesting.

The legislators got money from pharma.

Pharma will get money from increased vaccine sales.

Lovely virtuous circle...
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#3 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 07:30 AM
 
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I don't think this is an awesome strategy. This is not going to be successful. There is a reason, Travis Middleton is filing this Pro Se, no licensed attorney would ever take this case, because it is not going to be successful. It is a waste of resources that could be spent changing this law legislatively if that is what is desired. Travis Middleton it seems really likes Pro Se (representing oneself) RICO cases, this is the third he has filed. None have been successful at even making it court. This one will not either.

He is not an attorney. I find it interesting that Doris Reiss is constantly attacked as "not an attorney" because she hasn't taken a Bar Exam, and is "Just" a law professor. Travis Middleton is not an attorney, has not been to law school, has not been to graduate school. He files a lot of lawsuits (including 3 filed in an attempt to have his indecent exposure conviction overturned) but none have been successful. In fact, it appears none of them even make it into court. Because he isn't basing his briefs on sound LEGAL reasoning, nor LEGAL grounds. His 2 page overview of the Tuskegee experiment (which reads like a high school term paper) may make vaccine critics pump their fists and get excited, but it isn't related to this case, and he isn't making an actual legal argument for how it is. Legislators also have immunity for most of what they do and filing a lawsuit directly against them (and their spouses?) for voting on legislation is a futile endeavor.

I feel bad for all the contributors giving hard earned money to this. Alan Phillips (A vaccine attorney who is an expert on vaccine policy) has talked about how this needs to be resolved legislatively. No amount of people filing lawsuits like this is going to be successful. It actually ends up having the opposite result the more lawsuits like this, that don't survive summary judgement, and get thought of as frivolous, the less attention legislators and sympathetic public are willing to pay to this. The money spent filing this lawsuit would have been better spent trying to get signatures for a referendum, or campaigning for legislators who don't agree with the legislation.
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#4 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I beg to differ, I think Travis is a very smart guy. Have you heard him talk about the case? He is only litigating counts he knows he can win, and he has done his research. Frankly, I think Alan Phillips is wrong about changing this legislatively, because the CA State Legislator is vaccine-biased, bought and paid for, and corrupt. Unless the citizens of CA can get every last one out of there, not much can be done about it.

The difference between Travis and Dorit is Travis is smart and independent, Dorit is a parrot for the pharmaceutical industry, and relies on the information put out by the "skeptics".
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#5 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 07:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post
I don't think this is an awesome strategy. This is not going to be successful. There is a reason, Travis Middleton is filing this Pro Se, no licensed attorney would ever take this case, because it is not going to be successful. It is a waste of resources that could be spent changing this law legislatively if that is what is desired. Travis Middleton it seems really likes Pro Se (representing oneself) RICO cases, this is the third he has filed. None have been successful at even making it court. This one will not either.

He is not an attorney. I find it interesting that Doris Reiss is constantly attacked as "not an attorney" because she hasn't taken a Bar Exam, and is "Just" a law professor. Travis Middleton is not an attorney, has not been to law school, has not been to graduate school. He files a lot of lawsuits (including 3 filed in an attempt to have his indecent exposure conviction overturned) but none have been successful. In fact, it appears none of them even make it into court. Because he isn't basing his briefs on sound LEGAL reasoning, nor LEGAL grounds. His 2 page overview of the Tuskegee experiment (which reads like a high school term paper) may make vaccine critics pump their fists and get excited, but it isn't related to this case, and he isn't making an actual legal argument for how it is. Legislators also have immunity for most of what they do and filing a lawsuit directly against them (and their spouses?) for voting on legislation is a futile endeavor.

I feel bad for all the contributors giving hard earned money to this. Alan Phillips (A vaccine attorney who is an expert on vaccine policy) has talked about how this needs to be resolved legislatively. No amount of people filing lawsuits like this is going to be successful. It actually ends up having the opposite result the more lawsuits like this, that don't survive summary judgement, and get thought of as frivolous, the less attention legislators and sympathetic public are willing to pay to this. The money spent filing this lawsuit would have been better spent trying to get signatures for a referendum, or campaigning for legislators who don't agree with the legislation.
I've read Phillips' arguments about this and am inclined to agree. He contends that the courts simply cannot be trusted with this issue. So far, he's been right. Things can even backfire if the judge commits any judicial legislation. I understand how livid Californians are right now. But knee-jerk reactions aren't the answer, and they may need to work patiently to elect some new people and work through this legislatively.

And as much as her passive-aggressive debating style drives me crazy, I think that Dorit is pretty intelligent. On legal issues, however, I do tend to listen more to licensed attorneys with extensive experience practicing in the U.S. legal system. That would nix Dorit and Travis.
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#6 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 08:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
I beg to differ, I think Travis is a very smart guy. Have you heard him talk about the case? He is only litigating counts he knows he can win, and he has done his research. Frankly, I think Alan Phillips is wrong about changing this legislatively, because the CA State Legislator is vaccine-biased, bought and paid for, and corrupt. Unless the citizens of CA can get every last one out of there, not much can be done about it.

The difference between Travis and Dorit is Travis is smart and independent, Dorit is a parrot for the pharmaceutical industry, and relies on the information put out by the "skeptics".
I agree with most of this. Not sure who watched the coverage of the committee hearings. The lobbyists were taking directly to Pan during the hearings! The only support people got through the legislature was through the republicans which are the minority in a state like CA.

There are some really stupid bills that have been passed like the banning of plastic bags. They have not taken affect because they have been in the courts. That is also the only reason gay marriage became legal in CA - challenge through the courts after the voters voted against it.
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#7 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 08:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
I beg to differ, I think Travis is a very smart guy. Have you heard him talk about the case? He is only litigating counts he knows he can win, and he has done his research. Frankly, I think Alan Phillips is wrong about changing this legislatively, because the CA State Legislator is vaccine-biased, bought and paid for, and corrupt. Unless the citizens of CA can get every last one out of there, not much can be done about it.

The difference between Travis and Dorit is Travis is smart and independent, Dorit is a parrot for the pharmaceutical industry, and relies on the information put out by the "skeptics".

He may be a very smart guy. I have heard him talk about the case.

He may have done research on vaccines, but he has not done his research on the legal system and how legal reasoning and legal research works. He is not only litigating counts he knows he can win, because this is the Third RICO pro se lawsuit he has filed. He has not won of the two others that he filed. Not only has he not won in court, they haven't made it passed summary judgement. he also did not win the three appeals that he filed for a criminal violation he received. He is not going to win this case.

Honestly, I find it perplexing that you are more inclined to believe a non-attorney who has a history of filing lawsuits similar to this that have all been thrown out, than Alan Philips a vaccine injury plaintiffs attorney with a history of winning in court, and who is sought after as an expert on vaccine policy.

Another difference between Dorit and Travis, is that Dorit is an expert on legal policy with graduate legal training and teaches at a law school. And she doesn't have a history of filing unsuccessful lawsuits.
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#8 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Travis has done his research. If it fails it fails, he is facing an uphill battle fueled by ignorance and corruption. Dorit might know "law" but she doesn't know vaccines. As for Alan Philips, he is good at what de does, but that doesn't mean he is right in this instance. I for one wouldn't hire him as my attorney.

Something has to be done about SB277, and doing via the legislative process ain't gonna work. So more lawsuits the merrier, keep the courts occupied and the message out there.
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#9 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 10:10 AM
 
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There are some really stupid bills that have been passed like the banning of plastic bags.
Four years ago, the CA state legislature introduced a bill to outlaw black cars because of something to do with climate change.

Where is the science in that legislation?

The bill failed - some people testified that Black people often buy black cars out of pride.
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Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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#10 of 10 Old 09-21-2016, 10:47 AM
 
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I can't say I agree that wasting time and money filing losing lawsuits is at all good for the cause. It makes the whole thing look a bit silly and lose credibility.

I can't imagine that having multiple losing cases that could potentially help set a precedent is a good thing.

I think this guy sounds like a total walnut, personally.

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