a sad,sad,sad day............. - Mothering Forums

 
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#1 of 31 Old 03-19-2004, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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one year ago today the u.s. and British forces invaded the Middle East nation of Iraq. our boys are coming back in body bags, bombs go off at hotels, destruction.

war is not the answer. war brings suffering and shortages and death. I know . i lived in central america during the 80's.


war is living nightmare.
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#2 of 31 Old 03-19-2004, 03:15 PM
 
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Yes, and with the huge bombings that have happened in the last couple of days a lot of innocent people are paying a huge price for Bush's BIG MISTAKE of a war!
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#3 of 31 Old 03-19-2004, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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a sad day turned into a bad day. the school i was working at is near downtown and we had to get all the children inside. there were so many helicopters over head. i started to cry and panic in the room. the staff was supportive and knew what was happening. i excused myself to go pour water on my face. i couldnot stop crying and panicking. i was looking for a place to hide........like under a table. by this time i had a migrane. it was terrible.

i got off at noon and there were still stupid helicopters intimidating the protesters.......and police vans. that was when i really lost it. all these police vans in riot gear. it scared me. i have flash backs of Nicaragua in the 80's. all these helicopters going over head.
i want to find my children and hold them tight and pray.
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#4 of 31 Old 03-19-2004, 10:47 PM
 
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Hope you are feeling better Jannan! Sorry about your flashbacks. I can't imagine living there in the 80's! I hope the children are OK!! Loads of Helicopters can be scary. We live by a MArine/Army base and sometimes they are loud!!

That has to be terrible! Riot gear on police for protesters of a war that has gone terribly wrong and causing US and Iraqi deaths daily.

I love and hug my child all the time, but lately it's a little more and more fearful. My gov't has abandoned international treaties and has decided that what the US wants the US will get-no matter what the cost.

A very sad day indeed!!!

We have 2 papers in my area and the one for the OC has a picture of Bush on the front page giving thumbs up to soldiers.

The LA Times has a picture of the people of Iraq carring the coffins of the dead from the lastest bombing through the streets. Our country is very divided and I just don't understand how some papers can ignore death.
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#5 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 12:20 AM
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It's not a sad day for everyone. Their was a reporter on tv this evening that said they had interviewed 7000 Iraqs in 100 different cities and the general consensus was things were better since SH was gone.

Secondy, it isn't just Bush that decided to go to war , congress had to vote on it. The responsibility of the war goes to every person who voted to go to war. It is easy to make one person a scapegoat by forgetting that it was voted on and the majority believed it was necessary.
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#6 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 12:40 AM
 
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Yes Laura, but with rhetoric flying around like 'you're either with us or against us' from GWB, don't you think it's a little difficult to make a stand & say I won't vote to go to war without UN backing? Political suicide, IMO, & GWB knew that the Dems would be forced into it. That & a fair few of them are hawks anyway who love a good war. Makes life exciting for them, I think. Never mind the poor souls who get blown up over the whole mess........


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#7 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 02:29 AM
 
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Holy cow, NM, where'd you get all those quotes? And I think there are more hawks in the Democratic party than I'd first imagined- sorry, been out of the country for a while & I just don't get the mass of info that you all do. Which is probably lucky or the only news the rest of the world would have is about America!

I think I'll bring it all back to the OP:
Quote:
war is not the answer. war brings suffering and shortages and death. I know . i lived in central america during the 80's.
In the end it doesn't really matter whether they are Repubs or Dems if you've got bombs flying over your head, now does it?

(glad to see you here Nursing Mother )

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#8 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 03:20 AM
 
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I'm sick of all of 'em. Blech.

: :
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#9 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 09:29 AM
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Nursing Mother, great post. I think the quotes show that Sh has always been seen as a major threat. The dems are just trying to dump anything that goes wrong on Bush.
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#10 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 10:03 AM
 
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I'm sad, NM, that you, after all these years in here with us, seem to delight in painting us all with a broad brush of "the other".

You should know that most of us don't support our current politicians. You should know that we were all disgusted with them when they voted to give Shrub the power to go to Iraq.

You were here with us all then. Trying to defend their votes, defending your president.

Do any of you Shrub supporters hear us at all? Don't you get the underlying part of our angst? It isn't *just* anti-Shrub. It never has been *just* that. Most of us are frustrated with the whole system. We are painfully aware that we have polititians who don't represent us at all. We ache for the future of us all as a result of this. We are just pawns in their big chess game.


The bottom line with the war in IRAQ is that everyone was lied to. Everyone voted based on those lies. So, imo, they *are* justified in calling Shrub on it.

Many of those past quotes NM would advocate *doing* something only within the UN. The US has no business invading a sovereign nation in order to set up a new gov't. Most of those quoted would agree with that.

Keep telling us how happier Iraqies are now. Then tell me what we say when the ppl of N Korea start crying out for "democracy". What do we do? How about the ppl of Tibet? Do we go "free" them next? Any one of the African countries that desparately need "freedom" from evil dictators?


Where do we go next?
How do we tell them no?
Do you see at all the precedent this war set?



On another note, is anyone going to a rally today?

Kucinich will be a keynote speaker in NYC. Wish I could be there.......................

(I can't go to Chicago bcuz of dd's morning schedule...... )




El
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#11 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 01:10 PM
 
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Nursing Mother:

Those are all just quotations, opinions. They are not actions. They are not 2 or 3 hour presentations in front of the UN seen around the world. Those are not the president standing with the prime minister claiming Saddam has nuclear weapons. Those are comments from members a party - not the hired members of one man's administration.
Here's hypocrisy:
On June 27th, 2001, Secretary Rumsfeld submitted an $8.3 billion request for missile defenses, the largest single weapons program in the Pentagon budget. On September 7th, 2001, the Senate Armed Services Committee tried to move $600 million into anti-terrorism efforts instead. Rumsfeld threatened a presidential veto.

Two days later, September 11th.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tc/script.html
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#12 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 02:10 PM
 
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Great post! Els!


Yes, I DO BLAME MY PRESIDENT! BUSH! He really does have the final say on attacking another country. He is the top dog!

Of course there are many to blame along with him. BUSH IS IN CONTROL OF AMERICA< HE IS TO BLAME!

The following quotes and links are available for anyone who does not want to admit that their president and his men are LIARS!!!!



1. Powell relies on FORGED documents to link Saddam to terror.

MSNBC: "They have been the closest of allies. But under the intense pressure of a diplomatic crisis at the United Nations and an imminent war in Iraq, the friendship between the United States and Britain is beginning to fray. The most recent strain emerged when U.N. nuclear inspectors concluded last week that U.S. and British claims about Iraq's secret nuclear program were based on forged documents. The fake letters supposedly laid out how Iraqi agents had tried to purchase uranium from officials in Niger, central Africa."

MORE: http://www.msnbc.com/news/883164.asp?cp1=1

CNN: WASHINGTON (CNN) --" Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors. "

MORE: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/spr...nts/index.html

Sydney Morning Herald, Australia: "The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, has demonstrated that UK and US intelligence authorities relied on forged documents to support assertions that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa. "

MORE: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...583740556.html

LA Times: WASHINGTON -- "Phony weapons documents cited by the United States and Britain as evidence against Saddam Hussein were initially obtained by Italian intelligence authorities, who may have been duped into paying for the forgeries, U.S. officials said Friday. The documents, which purport to show Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium from Niger, were exposed as fraudulent by U.N. weapons inspectors last week. The matter has embarrassed U.S. and British officials. "

MORE: http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-docs15m...,5016930.story

And even more:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=...rged+documents

* * *

2. Bush/Powell's UN "evidence" relies on even MORE supposedly "up to date" FORGED documents to link Saddam to terror.

CNN:" Large chunks of the 19-page report -- highlighted by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell at the U.N. as a " fine paper ... which describes in exquisite detail Iraqi deception activities" -- contains large chunks lifted from other sources, according to several academics. " The British government's dossier is 19 pages long and most of pages 6 to 16 are copied directly from that document word for word, even the grammatical errors and typographical mistakes," Rangwala said. Al-Marashi's article, published last September, was based on information obtained at the time of the 1991 Gulf War, Rangwala said. " The information he was using is 12 years old and he acknowledges this in his article. The British government, when it transplants that information into its own dossier, does not make that acknowledgement. " So it is presented as current information about Iraq, when really the information it is using is 12 years old."

MORE: http://asia.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...rq.uk.dossier/

UK Guardian: "Downing Street was last night plunged into acute international embarrassment after it emerged that large parts of the British government's latest dossier on Iraq - allegedly based on "intelligence material" - were taken from published academic articles, some of them several years old. Amid charges of "scandalous" plagiarism on the night when Tony Blair attempted to rally support for the US-led campaign against Saddam Hussein, Whitehall's dismay was compounded by the knowledge that the disputed document was singled out for praise by the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, in his speech to the UN security council on Wednesday. "

MORE: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comme...892069,00.html

http://education.guardian.co.uk/high...890962,00.html


3. Bush/Powell tries to use edited audio-tape to LIE about Saddam/Bin Laden Connection.

NY Times: "It offered little evidence of an alliance between Mr. Hussein and Mr. bin Laden, but it did seem to validate Arab leaders' warnings that Islamic extremists would exploit any assault on Baghdad to further inflame the region."

MORE: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/12/in...st/12TAPE.html

NY Times: "Germany dismissed Wednesday U.S. claims that a new audiotape purportedly by Osama bin Laden proved he was in league with Iraq, while some Muslims were cheered by the possibility the accused mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks was still alive."



Philadelphia Daily News: "But if bin Laden was trying to show personal solidarity with Saddam himself, he had a strange way of doing so. He denounced Saddam's secular, socialist al-Baath party as "infidels." What's more, the statement said that Iraq's rulers had "lost their credibility long ago" and that "socialists are infidels wherever they are." He didn't even mention Saddam by name."

MORE: http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/5157847.htm

Salon.com: "War, lies and audiotape If truth is the first casualty of war, then this war's second casualty is the credibility of Colin Powell. Yesterday morning he insisted that the new tape from Osama bin Laden would show a "partnership" between al-Qaida and Iraq. He told the nation that he had a transcript of bin Laden's remarks. Understandably, however, the secretary of state didn't read from the transcript he claimed to have in his possession -- because it so clearly contradicted the headlines he was trying to create. "

MORE: http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason.../index_np.html

* * *
4. Bush/Powell LIES again about Saddam's ability to deliver weapons of mass destruction.

News Interactive: An Iraqi drone found by UN weapons inspectors is of "very primitive" design and is definitely not capable of flying 500km as suggested by US Secretary of State Colin Powell, Jane's Defence Weekly said today.

"On February 5, Powell told the UN Security Council that the Iraqis possessed a drone that could fly 500km, violating UN rules that limit the range of Iraqi weapons to 150km. " There is no possibility that the design shown on 12 March has the capability to fly anywhere near 500 kilometres," drones expert Ken Munson said on Jane's website (http://jdw.janes.com). " The design looks very primitive, and the engines -- which have their pistons exposed -- appear to be low-powered," he said."

MORE: Article Link

Originally from the NY Times: "AL TAJI, Iraq -- To hear senior Bush administration officials tell it, Iraq's latest pilotless drone has the potential to be one of Saddam Hussein's deadliest weapons, able to deliver terrifying payloads of chemical and biological warfare agents across Iraq's borders to Israel or other neighboring states. It could even, they say, be broken down and smuggled into the United States for use in terrorist attacks. But viewed up close yesterday by reporters hastened by Iraqi officials to the Ibn Firnas weapons plant outside Baghdad, the vehicle the Iraqis have code-named RPV-30A, for remotely piloted vehicle, looked more like something out of the Rube Goldberg museum of aeronautical design than anything that could threaten Iraq's foes. To the layman's eye, the unveiling of the Iraqi prototype seemed to lend the crisis over Iraq's weapons an aura less of deadly threat than of farce."

"In any case, he and other officials said, the vehicle could not be controlled from a distance of more than 5 miles, in good weather, since its controllers tracked it "with the naked eye."

MORE: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._drone13.shtml

Boston Globe: "Duct tape reinforced by aluminum foil held together the black and white drone's balsa wood wings. The wooden propellers and tiny engines were fastened to a well-worn fuselage, fashioned from the fuel tank of a larger aircraft. The words ''God is Great'' were hand painted in red ink on both sides. Perched on a sawhorse at a military research base 20 miles north of Baghdad, the drone looked more like a large school science project than a vehicle capable of delivering chemical and biological weapons. Iraqi officials denied the airplane had any strategic use."

More: Article Link

* * *
5. Bush/Powell LIE about Iraq's Nuclear capabilities concerning "aluminum tubes":

ABC News: "Before Congress, and in public, President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell have repeatedly pointed to aluminum tubes imported by Iraq which they say are for use in making nuclear weapons. But on Friday, head United Nations nuclear inspector Mohammad ElBaradei told the Security Council that it wasn't likely that the tubes were for that use. ElBaradei also said that documents Bush had cited and relied upon to make the case that Iraq tried to buy uranium from a country in central Africa were fake. "

More: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/2..._evidence.html

Washington Post: "The finding: Iraq had tried to buy thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes, which Bush said were "used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon." But according to government officials and weapons experts, the claim now appears to be seriously in doubt. After weeks of investigation, U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq are increasingly confident that the aluminum tubes were never meant for enriching uranium, according to officials familiar with the inspection process. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were "not directly suitable" for uranium enrichment"
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#13 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 03:00 PM
 
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On another note, is anyone going to a rally today?
I'm a little too nervous to take my kids to the rally here in Portland, OR today. This city tends to get pretty crazy including tons of arrests, rubber bullets, pepper spray, etc etc. Plus, a recent Oregon supreme court ruling now states that the cops can no longer arrest protesters for refusing orders to disperse. This is a victory for the protesters however, i do not know what the cops will do to keep control if (when) it gets out of hand. It should be interesting, to say the least.

If you are interested, this web site may have video later....

portland indy media
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#14 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 03:59 PM
 
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Originally posted by Els' 3 Ones



The bottom line with the war in IRAQ is that everyone was lied to. Everyone voted based on those lies. So, imo, they *are* justified in calling Shrub on it.

Many of those past quotes NM would advocate *doing* something only within the UN. The US has no business invading a sovereign nation in order to set up a new gov't. Most of those quoted would agree with that.


.......................






El
What Els said!!

It is a sad day!! I do not live in the region being "liberated" for Hallibuton and other to make a profit. I don't see my children dying everyday. But, everyday in the paper I see US deaths and injures that come from an unjust war.

No one ever disagreed tht he was a dictator that had many human rights abuses. But, the man said he had ties to 9/11 and that made many people believe in this conflict.

The UN is the place for this, not just one country. Yes, the UN Bush denounced as this war started and now has asked for assistance this year!

And I am out protesting later today! It starts at noon around here. I know that it will not be as large as San Fran or LA, but we will be heard!
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#15 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 04:15 PM
 
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Today is a sad day. I'll never forget how I felt, last year, today.
I was so so so sad. I was thinking of all those kids, and their parents, trying to explain....
Will it ever end?
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#16 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 04:28 PM
 
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I'm actually headed out the door to our local rally, but I wanted to give props to Nursing Mother... that's what this forum is all about to me. You have well-researched, intelligent discourse, and it's great to "hear" both sides of an issue.

NM, you know I'm over with the bleeding hearts , but I wanted to say I'm glad you are posting here again. It's great to have input that is respectful and well-researched from "the other side".

....edited to add I loved your posts Els and Marg! You go!!!!!
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#17 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 04:54 PM
 
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So why do you say "keep telling us about how happy the Iraqi's are now......."
I had broke paragraph and was then referring to the collective "Shrub supporters".

Sorry that wasn't more clear.



El
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#18 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 05:10 PM
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It seems that people are forgetting that we wouldn't have went to Iraq unless congress voted for it. Here is an excellent article on the truth of what has been happening. The idea of removing SH was already in place before Bush became president. The only really sad thing we have going on is the rhetoric and lies that the democrats are perpetuating to advance their own agenda. Iraq facts and fantasies

I know there is nothing nice about war. Many people suffer and sacrifice, but when we are faced with evil we should never back down.
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#19 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 05:24 PM
 
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With this resolution, Congress has now authorized the use of force. I have not ordered the use of force. I hope the use of force will not become necessary. Yet, confronting the threat posed by Iraq is necessary, by whatever means that requires. Either the Iraqi regime will give up its weapons of mass destruction, or, for the sake of peace, the United States will lead a global coalition to disarm that regime. If any doubt our nation's resolve, our determination, they would be unwise to test it.

The Iraqi regime is a serious and growing threat to peace. On the commands of a dictator, the regime is armed with biological and chemical weapons, possesses ballistic missiles, promotes international terror and seeks nuclear weapons. The same dictator has a history of mass murder, striking other nations without warning; of intense hatred for America; and of contempt for the demands of the civilized world.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021016-1.html

Congress was lied to. The threat was no where near what the admin made it out to be.

We have been saying this all along. NOT JUST NOW THAT THE ELECTION IS HERE. Not just now that the rest of the world is starting to say it. Not just now that more democrats are saying it.

In here, we said it all along. THAT is what I figured you forgot NM. And I am as sad and frustrated as you are.


Will one of the Shrub supporters answer my questions?

Where do we go next?
How do we tell them no?
Do you see at all the precedent this war set?


Let me add a few more.

Since you support this war and the lack of a good reason to be in it - are you joining the military to do your part? (afterall, the CIC would not put anyone in harms way unless ab-so-lute-ly necessary, right?)

How about your children? Ready to raise them up lovingly to send them around the world as occupiers?


Answer me. Please.




El
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#20 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 05:50 PM
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Congress was lied to? Are you saying that they had no access to the intelligence information? What about our allies who had their own intelligence information? Are you suggesting that SH has never been a threat?

Why do the anti-war people ignore the horrendous act that SH has committed?

Me join the service? I'm to old . My dh would've gone in a heartbeat, but he's to old.
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#21 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 06:13 PM
 
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That was an answer? 1 question out of the bunch?

For pete's sake!



Yeah, SQ, everyone was lied to. Do your own research, won't be hard to come up with as it has been all over for months.

SH was not a threat 1yr ago.

The congress debated a mere 30 hours over the resolution. How could they have evaluated all of the intelligence?



How do you know I ignored what a beast SH was? Every hear of Voices in the Wilderness ?

WE OWNED SH - WE KNEW EVERYTHING HE DID FOR YEARS.

WE HELPED HIM DO IT. http://www.agitproperties.com/flashtheater.html

Then we got pissed and wasted more than 500 of our own men and women to lock him up.

Shrub wanted this b4 9/11 ever happened.

Had nothing to do with WMD and everything to do with oil.



Anyone else care to really answer my questions?


El
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#22 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 07:21 PM
 
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Originally posted by sleeping queen
It seems that people are forgetting that we wouldn't have went to Iraq unless congress voted for it.
unfortunately, sleeping queen has a point and illustrates exactly why as much as i despise the incompetent civil-liberty-crushing lying incompetent currently in the oval office, i can't support kerry who voted in support of all the garbage this president asked for.

it will be interesting to see how this plays out in november.
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#23 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 07:23 PM
 
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el makes an excellent point. the root of much of this evil is Reagan, who sold his ethics - and ultimately sold out america - to arm both saddam and osama. on 9-11, what went 'round finally came 'round.

G-d help us when the future horrors whose seeds we're planting today come calling...
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#24 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 07:30 PM
 
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Where do we go next? How do we tell them no?
Do you see at all the precedent this war set?
Sadly, El's I don't think a lot of people care, They are too comfortable watching BS on their TV's none of this is a reality for them. The lies are much too soothing.

But wait till their little boys and little girls are drafted to fight the next war and the next. And have to look in the eyes of another young man or woman as they take their life, when they should be falling in love.

What has killing innocent people ever solved?

And about the Iraqis who are better off, that's BS. My best friend's friend went to Iraq before the last invasion as a human shield, she is still there living with the people and sending back their messages. They're lifes have not improved, somethings have gotten worse.

Sleaping Queen, I'd be happy to find and pm you copies of my friends letters from Bagdad. and anyone else who wants to see them.

NO ONE LIKED SH! But Bush "did something about it" Yes, something terribly evil. He did THE WRONG THING.

What would I have done about it?


Refuse To use any oil from the middle east. Since it's damaging our environment in the first place and we know damn well there are better alternatives.

Worked with the rest of the world for a peacful resolution to the problem. As an example to our children who we are teaching to do the same.
(It shouldn't have been hard. Saddam and Bush had been friends from a long time ago. Haven't you seen the picture of them playing around together.)



And if we cared so much about the Iraqi people, why not send them humanitarian aide to help out with the destruction from the first time we Bombed the hell out of their children's land and devestated the most highly educated and culturally rich country of the region.

Hey why didn't we ask the Iraqi people what they wanted? Did, they want us to do something about there government? In what way we trully could have helped them? Only they could possibly know what could be culturally appropriate.


Why don't we work on making a true working Democracy here at home before going out telling everyone else how to run their countries.
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#25 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Els' 3 Ones

Anyone else care to really answer my questions?
um...it's clinton's fault?
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#26 of 31 Old 03-20-2004, 08:17 PM
 
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#27 of 31 Old 03-23-2004, 03:55 AM
 
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I also wanted to add that Jannan has live in a war zone with the US invading. I think she was relating her experiences with that of Iraq. I have never lived in a war zone and maybe that is why she thinks it's such as sad, sad day!

I mean she lived in Central America in the 1980's!

continue........................
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#28 of 31 Old 03-23-2004, 04:33 AM
 
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You know Sleeping Queen, I agree with you, Congress should also be accountable for the way they voted. Quite irresponsible of them.
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#29 of 31 Old 03-23-2004, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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thank you isleta. that is why i meant it was a sad day. because i was brought back to 1986 in northern nicaragua. i cannot handle a bunch of helicopters over head. i immidiatly look for a place to hide. i 'm going to make an appointment with the dr. some have mentioned to me Post traumatic stress disorder.
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#30 of 31 Old 03-24-2004, 09:23 PM
 
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