avoidance vs not (re: detoxification discussion) - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I wanted to talk specifically about avoidance of intolerances re: the discussion on trying to improve detoxification. I think there's nuance involved, and maybe more factors than we've really discussed in some of the other threads. I'd like to share some thoughts and wait for more insightful and/or educated folks to weigh in.

I'm specifically talking about IgG intolerances, not IgE. Just to be clear (though I want to learn more on what the differences are in healing each, since I think I don't know enough about this).

I want to start with gluten, though the same argument could probably apply to dairy or soy or maybe others (which others??). My daughter showed subtle, but definite improvements when we cut out gluten. Things like: her allergic shiners really lightened, her sleep improved, her poop improved, she started napping again, a lot of systemic things that make me think that elimination alone improved how her body was working. So even though none of that was a huge quality of life issue (well, the resumption of naps really helped the late afternoon) I think elimination alone was worthwhile. I think other folks have had similar improvements just with elimination of other allergens. I have to think that the reduction in stress on her body was benefit enough to avoid it.

And do we need to be doing a healing diet, something like SCD or GAPS in order to really get going on the gut healing, in addition to figuring out (seems like some trial and error will be involved) in what our detoxification issues are?

It really does seem like a different decision-making process is going on when the diet gets really, really limited, and I'm wowed by some of the stuff going on with some of the folks here. And it makes me wonder how much we can jumpstart the healing process with other approaches like homeopathy.

Okay, I need to give up the computer now, but would love to discuss this and see what the concensus is. Thx!
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#2 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 01:00 AM
 
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#3 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 04:34 AM
 
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I'm interested in this conversation too. But my sense is that it may be more useful to tackle every food but gluten. Its such an evil insidious and pervasive intolerance with far reaching complications. Aside from dairy, all the rest of the foods are pretty safe by comparison- even nightshades.

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#4 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 09:37 AM
 
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we were down to very few foods, doing well on strict failsafe. when we challenged amines, a list of our "previously safe" foods failed, failed, failed. i become seriously depressed.

then, i started thinking about why would moderate to high levels of sals pass, but amines didn't. usually it's the other way around.

and then some how (well, i know how ) whoMe and my paths crossed and i got jazzed up about open detox pathways while rotating.

we're on a four day rotation with lots of supplements to heal our guts & open pathways. in about a month's time, we've got fish, seafood, potatoes, CORN, PEANUT BUTTER, honey, and most fruits and veggies. we still have a hard time with onions and garlic - i need to see what i can do about helping our bodies convert sulfites to sulfates (if i have that right - 2hrs of sleep last night, plus two kids and a dog currently in my lap...).

i used to be in the "avoid all traces" camp b/c it seemed to make a difference. but then we sort of stalled on that.

i guess, i finally accepted that we've gotta move forward and support the body's functioning, not avoid it's malfunctioning.

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#5 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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we're on a four day rotation with lots of supplements to heal our guts & open pathways. in about a month's time, we've got fish, seafood, potatoes, CORN, PEANUT BUTTER, honey, and most fruits and veggies.

i used to be in the "avoid all traces" camp b/c it seemed to make a difference. but then we sort of stalled on that.

i guess, i finally accepted that we've gotta move forward and support the body's functioning, not avoid it's malfunctioning.
Whoa! WAY impressed! And it makes me feel like a slacker, cause in the past year and a half, I've sorta accepted our list of vit/min supps, I think they're generally good, but now I'm really wondering if I should be tweaking to optimize them. Our list of bad foods is short, gluten, dairy, cashews, chocolate (the last two are just minor rashes, I really think we can/should get those back) and soy is possibly bad (but my son's not that sensitive, since I think I've been missing it for a year and a half).

And mtn.mama, I've wondered if there are classes of bad foods in terms of intolerances, gluten seems fairly problematic, dairy oftentimes (though I'm more confident we'll someday be able to consume dairy than gluten), what about soy? It seems to co-exist with dairy a lot, and the question is a bit more relevant to me than it was last week. But some folks have seriously bad reactions to even tiny traces of foods they're intolerant too. At times we've reacted to very small amounts of gluten, but our reactions, in the grand scheme of things, aren't that bad. And I guess I should actually try cashews and/or chocolate with my son, I'm not sure where we are on the getting-better scale.

For some, strict avoidance of a larger set of the intolerant foods is basically a requirement for quality of life--so they keep that up while they figure out what's going on with their detox pathways?

Hey, one more question (for all)--when you've got a fairly high toxic load (cause the more I read, the more I'm finding lots of detox pathways that I think have been impaired in me for a couple decades), and so, say, the kids have quite the load (esp my son, I think his detox pathways are similar to mine, and he's got toxins from me that I specifically didn't detox well--and he's the kid with a longer list of intolerances, my daughter's only gluten and probably only some dairy, not all), it seems like there's going to be a big backup of things needing to be detoxed. It seems like we'd need to make some progress on the backlog before it feels much different, functionally, to our overloaded bodies. Fundamentally, I'm having a hard time deciding what my expectations should be. Chocolate caused less reaction in spring 08 than fall 07 (when I figured it out) but I don't know if it was just avoidance, or avoidance and us making progress, and maybe I can optimize our progress.
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#6 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 11:04 AM
 
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tanya - i wanted to caution you on the cashews. nut allergies/intolerances can get scary, FAST.

i went from being able to eat them all the time to full body rash suddenly at the age of 20. The next exposure was tingly lips. It didn't come back as positive on a blood test. SCARY!

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#7 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Everything I've read says that about nut allergies, but the sad fact of the matter is, it took me months, many months, of my son directly eating them, often several times a week because they were a typical snack item for us, for me to connect that red rash around his mouth to a food, and then I had to journal to figure out cashews. They've definitely got a reputation, but the reaction itself is very typical, but on the mild side, of what folks see as normal intolerances. Heck, our (likely) soy problem over the weekend was much more significant (poor kid's bottom was so red, and he was gassy, in addition to the red mouth) but it basically looked like a stronger version of the cashew reaction. And so I've always felt a bit torn on how I should deal with it--the reaction is a typical, mild intolerance reaction, and we did it a lot of times and I wasn't seeing escalation, but it's a nut. So I'm torn.
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#8 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 11:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Everything I've read says that about nut allergies, but the sad fact of the matter is, it took me months, many months, of my son directly eating them, often several times a week because they were a typical snack item for us, for me to connect that red rash around his mouth to a food, and then I had to journal to figure out cashews. They've definitely got a reputation, but the reaction itself is very typical, but on the mild side, of what folks see as normal intolerances. Heck, our (likely) soy problem over the weekend was much more significant (poor kid's bottom was so red, and he was gassy, in addition to the red mouth) but it basically looked like a stronger version of the cashew reaction. And so I've always felt a bit torn on how I should deal with it--the reaction is a typical, mild intolerance reaction, and we did it a lot of times and I wasn't seeing escalation, but it's a nut. So I'm torn.
Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

PB posted a bit ago about aspergillus being the connection between peanuts, soy, and cashew intolerances. it's also in wine and digestive enzymes and other places.

do you have abx allergies? or mold in general? might be worth looking into.

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#9 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I know, that whole discussion was cool, but I didn't have any ah-ha moments for us. As far as I know, I don't have a mold allergy, I've been on antibiotics a few times and haven't ever had a problem, ah, interesting about the soy, but peanuts really are okay (I feel like a fraud writing that after my slow soy realization, but I think they're okay). I've never taken digestive enzymes, and I don't drink much but never saw a problem with wine as far as I noticed.
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#10 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 12:48 PM
 
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Tanya, I believe an immediate oral rash is TONS more serious than a delayed red rash around the anus. Each subsequent exposure of an IgE reaction is worse systemically. And can be fatal. I'd avoid the cashews.


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#11 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But it's not immediate--I mean, by immediate do you mean within an hour or so? It took about a third of a day, maybe only 6 hours, so it was only by journalling that I looked back a meal or so to figure it out. Immediacy (or lack thereof) is one of the things I've weighed in trying to figure out how I should deal with this.
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
But it's not immediate--I mean, by immediate do you mean within an hour or so? It took about a third of a day, maybe only 6 hours, so it was only by journalling that I looked back a meal or so to figure it out. Immediacy (or lack thereof) is one of the things I've weighed in trying to figure out how I should deal with this.
Hmmm...rash on mouth (from nuts) within 6 hours, I'd avoid. Cashews are not a necessary food, imo. Does he have the same issue with pumpkin seeds, Brazil nuts, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, walnuts, almonds? Those are more important nutritionally, I believe. And provide similar protein and fats, and 'snack' quality.


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#13 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The biggest annoyance is the cross-contamination factor. sunflower, pumpkin, peanuts, walnuts, sesame seeds and almonds are all ok, haven't fed him brazils (which is funny, i feed them to our older dog). But we don't do as many nuts as we could, because shelling them is a pain.
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The biggest annoyance is the cross-contamination factor. sunflower, pumpkin, peanuts, walnuts, sesame seeds and almonds are all ok, haven't fed him brazils (which is funny, i feed them to our older dog). But we don't do as many nuts as we could, because shelling them is a pain.
I don't think it has to be all or nothing, unless you want to do testing to confirm. Which I doubt he'd like. With a mild and questionable reaction, I'd be less concerned with cross contamination. With a serious reaction, I'd be absolutely careful to avoid. If the reaction occurs with other nuts, or worsens, I'd be vigilant. I'm not into painful testing, so I'd use my observation skills. And have benedryl immediately available.

The other nuts have more nutritional importance, imo. I buy raw shelled nuts. And I soak them, before eating, as much as possible.


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Earlier this week I decided to trial lemon in the form of PB's green lemonade. We occasionally have citrus based citric acid, but that's really it.
The lemonade was tasty, but what a strong reaction my son had. used 3/4of a lemon, so this is the most he had (mostly through me) in over 2 years. Most of it was behavioral - kicking, throwing, biting, loud screaming - not what he is usually like. He also had some eczema. I got a little itchy. At the moment, until I really figure out the detox pathways, we are going to hold off on the citrus. It was just too hard to parent the way I want to when he was that miserable. I will consider it in the future when we are really into the detoxing. I'm disappointed because lemon is so good for liver detox. I thought it would be a great addition.

I am considering using guar gum, even though my youngest reacts with light eczema. I am totally stuck with making baked goods - totally stuck. For me personally it doesn't matter too much. But for my boys I feel like it is a quality of life issue. They miss the occasional cookie, muffin, and bread. I do have one cookie recipe that works, ok. The bread has been a literal flop though. If anyone has suggestions, please let me know.

Children deserve the respect of puzzling it out.
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I'm interested in this conversation too. But my sense is that it may be more useful to tackle every food but gluten. Its such an evil insidious and pervasive intolerance with far reaching complications. Aside from dairy, all the rest of the foods are pretty safe by comparison- even nightshades.
And the evil, evil corn, right?

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i guess, i finally accepted that we've gotta move forward and support the body's functioning, not avoid it's malfunctioning.
Very well put! I'm almost there... kind of in between. I'm still avoiding the malfunctioning (because it is a serious quality of life issue for DD), but focusing mostly on the supporting now.

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#17 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 03:25 PM
 
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No question that corn is evil and EVERYWHERE in the US.
But I don't think it in itself has the far reaching health implications
that gluten does. However, the fact that its in everything does
twist that data. Same with soy. Used properly, organic and
fermented in small amounts... soy is probably a good thing.
But again not like most Americans depend on it. Gluten OTOH
is just really not good for most people- just my opinion of course.

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#18 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 03:31 PM
 
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I think part of the problem is that many foods we consume have been altered by husbandry or outright genetic modification, so they don't act the same in our bodies as the "old" foods. Gluten plants (and yes, corn, and probably soybeans too though I'm not as informed about soy) barely resemble the ancient foods that they were derived from. The healthy parts of the seeds have been reduced and the unhealthy parts of the seeds have been increased and the result is an insult to our bodies. So it seems to me that it would be wiser to avoid the "new" versions of these and, if you still want to include them in your diet, to go back to the "old" kind... spelt, ancient corn that is properly soaked in lime... non-GMO soy properly fermented...

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#19 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 08:27 PM
 
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I am considering using guar gum, even though my youngest reacts with light eczema. I am totally stuck with making baked goods - totally stuck. For me personally it doesn't matter too much. But for my boys I feel like it is a quality of life issue. They miss the occasional cookie, muffin, and bread. I do have one cookie recipe that works, ok. The bread has been a literal flop though. If anyone has suggestions, please let me know.
Gelatin can replace xanthan and/or guar gum. But you need to use a lot more. It's also really good for the villi, and for digestion in general
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#20 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 08:36 PM
 
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So here are my thoughts on gluten and dairy.

Gluten causes a zonulin reaction. In other words, it opens up the gut.
It would make sense for casein to do the same, so that babies can absorb mom's antibodies, instead of just digesting them.

Someone once mentioned that the traditional diets that included gluten all included dairy as well.

Some people probably do so much better GFCF because that allows their gut to close, and then there's way less burden on the liver to detox all that stuff.

We're talking about opening detox pathways, so that it doesn't matter so much that if our guts leak - cause the liver will be able to clean up the mess.

So my belief of the moment is that once the liver is happy and detoxing, gluten and dairy will just be like any other food.

But there's the issue of gluten and celiac and all that. I'm not sure how I feel about that. But it seems that there's a connection with low vitamin D and celiac. I think we're going to try opening detox pathways and trial goat milk kefir, then add things like lemon juice and iodine to flush out toxins (I don't have reason to think we have many stored up), then try other dairy, and last of all, with amazing vitamin D numbers, we'll try gluten again. We never had a celiac diagnosis, but dd reacted to gluten through my milk. I had elevated IgA antibodies per enterolab, but they weren't all that high.

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#21 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 08:50 PM
 
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And my thoughts on SCD/GAPS, cause it's been on my mind lately, too...

The right gut bacteria are important for doing things like breaking up oxalates, keeping glucuronidated toxins bound, making B vitamins, etc. And keeping the others in check, and all that good stuff.

I see SCD and GAPS as ways of replacing gut bacteria combined with a TED. The thing is, people report all sorts of nasty die-off symptoms and major stress to implement it. And if you look at what you're supposed to be eating for the intro, it's no surprise. It does seem to be effective long-term, though.

So if our probiotics and open detox pathways aren't helping enough, I probably will turn to them, but do a modified version that keeps the detox pathways open as a first priority.

I also question the 'no starch' thing, though. That rule makes sense if you have candida or SIBO, but I don't get symptoms from starch, even white rice with maple syrup. AND if you look carefully at 'legal' foods, lots of the veggies have significant starch/disaccharide content. Like carrots and beets.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems like a brute force way of replacing gut bacteria, and that the mechanisms aren't fully understood. So there's got to be a better way, I just don't know what it is. Yet.

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#22 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 09:09 PM
 
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Ok, never heard of zonulin reaction. So, I googled and found this about gliadin which is the culprit in the zonulin reaction, best I can discern. "Gliadin activates zonulin signaling irrespective of the genetic expression of autoimmunity, leading to increased intestinal permeability to macromolecules." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16635908

Basically leaky gut.

Gluten and gliadin are found in several common grains, especially wheat, rye, and barley.

Gliadin, the offending substance, is not present in corn or rice but is found in the other grains.

In people with celiac disease, gliadin damages the tiny projections, called villi, that cover the lining of the small intestine. Villi help absorb and carry fluids and nutrients. When they are damaged, the body is unable to absorb the nutrients that it needs.http://uimc.discoveryhospital.com/main.php?id=1881


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#23 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 09:12 PM
 
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And my thoughts on SCD/GAPS, cause it's been on my mind lately, too...

The right gut bacteria are important for doing things like breaking up oxalates, keeping glucuronidated toxins bound, making B vitamins, etc. And keeping the others in check, and all that good stuff.

I see SCD and GAPS as ways of replacing gut bacteria combined with a TED. The thing is, people report all sorts of nasty die-off symptoms

Why the die-off? Just curious.


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#24 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 09:23 PM
 
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Why the die-off? Just curious.


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Cause it's really easy to starve yourself, releasing toxins, you're killing off bacteria that are holding on to toxins, and you're not supplying all the B vitamins and magnesium we're learning are so important. So you end up with a bunch of toxins floating around that can't get out, and then your neurotransmitters get out of whack so you go crazy.

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#25 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 09:47 PM
 
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Cause it's really easy to starve yourself, releasing toxins, you're killing off bacteria that are holding on to toxins, and you're not supplying all the B vitamins and magnesium we're learning are so important. So you end up with a bunch of toxins floating around that can't get out, and then your neurotransmitters get out of whack so you go crazy.

Ah, yes, the starving problem has a cascade of consequences. That is what worries me the most about the long term TED. Well, that and the lack of nutrients.

It seems to me to ADD probiotics and ADD foods which help detox and ADD nutrient dense foods and ADD gut healing alternatives is a safer route.


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#26 of 240 Old 02-20-2009, 09:50 PM
 
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It seems to me to ADD probiotics and ADD foods which help detox and ADD nutrient dense foods and ADD gut healing alternatives is a safer route.
Right. But if you have a serious bacteria issue, that might not be enough. And so they seem effective at getting bacterial issues under control, just a little harsh.

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Right. But if you have a serious bacteria issue, that might not be enough. And so they seem effective at getting bacterial issues under control, just a little harsh.
There are natural antibacterial foods and spices, and natural antifungal foods and spices. And whole food probiotics which actually colonize the gut, rather than just pass through, or not make it to the gut, due to stomach ph. And foods which help to alkalize the body...

I'm just a MORE AND, rather than a LIMITS gal.


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#28 of 240 Old 02-21-2009, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My impression, though (and we haven't done SCD or GAPS yet, though I'm considering GAPS later this year for my husband) is that it's not just a lack of nutrients for excreting the toxins from the candida, it's that it could be _so_much_. I thought that was a lot of the negative reactions at the beginning, and the reason I am a bit hesitant and, if we do this, we will very slowly and gradually ease into it.

But Pat--some of us are so messed up from so many years of not being mindful of our bodies, and our particular weaknesses fit so well into the things we've not paid attention to that I think a healing diet like this can be needed.

Hey, sorta new question, but along the same lines.... Are we saying that kids with IgG intolerances, that reacted through breastmilk, have moms with both a leaky gut and detoxification problems? I'm thinking there's a range of gut leakiness and a range of severity of detoxification problems. We need a checklist to figure out which is worst for everyone's individual situation.

I mean--I have fairly significant detoxification issues, but my gut isn't terribly leaky--my son definitely didn't start reacting to cashews and chocolate until he started directly eating them, and he didn't have blatant stuff going on for gluten or dairy. But we're going to be working on detoxification for a few years. So it seems like someone could have a balance mostly the other way, and the gut healing focus here in this forum could be a lot more helpful to some. And I bet there are some with both serious detoxification problems and serious gut leakiness.
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#29 of 240 Old 02-21-2009, 11:33 AM
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And whole food probiotics which actually colonize the gut, rather than just pass through, or not make it to the gut, due to stomach ph.
By this do you mean probiotics from food (fermented veggies, etc.) or an actual class of probiotic supplements that are derived from whole foods? I have been taking primal defense and am almost out and trying to decide whether to stick with it or switch to another brand. Any elaboration you care to add on this subject would be much appreciated.

I am enjoying this thread immensely (as well as WhoMe's thread), but probably understanding 35%. I recently cut out wheat/dairy/beef/caffeine/alcohol/peanuts/sugar/citrus as well as raw fruits and veggies on advice of my doctor while awaiting blood work to see what's been causing long-term digestive problems. Also supplementing with magnesium, ubiquinol, B complex, primal defense, and clo. But I definitely had die off at first despite that. She's checking for yeast, so maybe that is the cause. But I ate mostly whole foods before the change, so I was surprised how strong my reaction was.

Anyway, back to lurking.
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#30 of 240 Old 02-21-2009, 11:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post

Hey, sorta new question, but along the same lines.... Are we saying that kids with IgG intolerances, that reacted through breastmilk, have moms with both a leaky gut and detoxification problems? I'm thinking there's a range of gut leakiness and a range of severity of detoxification problems. We need a checklist to figure out which is worst for everyone's individual situation.

I mean--I have fairly significant detoxification issues, but my gut isn't terribly leaky--my son definitely didn't start reacting to cashews and chocolate until he started directly eating them, and he didn't have blatant stuff going on for gluten or dairy. But we're going to be working on detoxification for a few years. So it seems like someone could have a balance mostly the other way, and the gut healing focus here in this forum could be a lot more helpful to some. And I bet there are some with both serious detoxification problems and serious gut leakiness.
That's the hypothesis/conclusion I've been mulling about in my head for the past few days/week as I've been reading these detox threads. I've never been convinced that I've had a huge leaky gut...or that leaky gut was all of the issue. (natural birth, no significant abx history, no serious candida symptoms...) I do think I may have more of a detox issue. Plenty of amalgams, single exposure to spray paint in 2004 that was correlated in time with weird symptoms that eventually got me a lupus dx, amalgam removal/replacement when ds was 5 mos old (don't ask! VERY bad decision on my part, I know), bacon craving and satisfaction in pregnancy...who knows.

DS, 10/07. Allergies: peanut, egg, wheat. We've added dairy back in. And taken it back out again. It causes sandpaper skin with itchy patches and thrashing during sleep. Due w/ #2 late April, 2012.

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