detox gone wrong: what not to do - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 93 Old 03-03-2009, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm trying to understand what to do right. I think it would help to understand what is definitely wrong.

The big thing we (mamas) are trying to avoid is toxins in general circulation, cause that's when they get into the milk. Toxins in circulation cause badness as well. Right?

So how do you mobilize toxins?

And how do you prevent them from being conjugated in the liver?

And how do you reabsorb them after they're in your gut?

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#2 of 93 Old 03-03-2009, 10:34 PM
 
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Well I've heard that lemon in water mobilizes toxins.

ALA mobilizes toxins

Milk thistle helps detox

that's all I got so far.

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#3 of 93 Old 03-03-2009, 11:04 PM
 
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Pascalite (calcium bentonite clay?) helps sop up toxins so they can be excreted, iirc.
Iodine *can* mobilize toxins.

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#4 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 02:06 AM
 
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But clay apparently can *also* mobilize toxins (at least initially.)

Drinking too much kombucha can mobilize toxins. (Just ask Pat .)

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#5 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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What is happening when toxins are mobilized? Is something telling them to get out of the cells they're hanging out in? Are they getting pushed ('get out, now!') or pulled (like a concentration gradient?)?

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#6 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 02:19 AM
 
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Good question...

I know that with yeast die-off, the good bacteria are eating through the yeast cell wall, which allows all the toxins inside to escape. I think it depends on what is mobilizing it. Like clay will adsorb/absorb, so it would be pulling toxins out, but things like kombucha that have live bacteria are probably breaking down cells of bad bacteria and flushing things out that way.

I'm very sleepy, so ignore my whole post if that didn't make sense. Going to bed now...

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#7 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 02:24 AM
 
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For halides (fluoride, chloride, bromide), it's often that they're being displaced by by iodine taking it's proper place...

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#8 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 02:32 AM
 
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Things like alpha lipoic acid and cilantro both form a chemical bond to some types of heavy metals, but the bond isn't perfect (it's not perfect for anything) so while the ALA+metal unit is travelling around, some of them separate and you're left with a molecule of said metal floating (and a molecule of ALA which can then bond to a different molecule of metal and start the process again), and if you don't have enough bandwidth in your detox pathways to get the metal out some other way, it'll settle in somewhere. I thought kombucha did something similar, though I'm not sure what the chemical in kombucha is that would do it.
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#9 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 02:49 AM
 
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Losing fat will mobilize toxins (as they are stored in fat). Use caution when eliminating (ED, TED, other allergy restrictions...) and be sure to nourish with nutrient dense foods!!!
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#10 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 10:20 AM
 
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I am concerned about what to do about toxins that get mobilized but don't get flushed away and instead get re-absorbed. I mean, how can you know whether this is happening or not? You can use clay to help flush them away, but how would you know when you need it. I mean, would you just take clay all the time, just in case?
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#11 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 10:48 AM
 
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Is chlorophyll relevant with toxin removal some how?
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#12 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 10:53 AM
 
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yes, it's a chelator.

children crawling all over me, so i've got to go now. but i just found this article and skimmed it. seems relavant to what we're discussing.

Edited: posted wrong link, here's the right one: http://www.healingdaily.com/oral-che...-chlorella.htm

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#13 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 01:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Things like alpha lipoic acid and cilantro both form a chemical bond to some types of heavy metals, but the bond isn't perfect (it's not perfect for anything) so while the ALA+metal unit is travelling around, some of them separate and you're left with a molecule of said metal floating (and a molecule of ALA which can then bond to a different molecule of metal and start the process again), and if you don't have enough bandwidth in your detox pathways to get the metal out some other way, it'll settle in somewhere. I thought kombucha did something similar, though I'm not sure what the chemical in kombucha is that would do it.
I thought that it was because of the s.boulardi (sp?) in kombucha, but I could be wrong.

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I am concerned about what to do about toxins that get mobilized but don't get flushed away and instead get re-absorbed. I mean, how can you know whether this is happening or not? You can use clay to help flush them away, but how would you know when you need it. I mean, would you just take clay all the time, just in case?
Just finished reading The Clay Cure, and he recommends taking it daily.

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#14 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 04:39 PM
 
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I believe that chlorella pulls mercury from our teeth (and other locations in the body) and releases it into the blood stream, to be eliminated by the colon. However, from my reading, it depends a lot on how well you digest/absorb the chlorella; and whether the chlorella has heavy metals in it, itself; and how quickly the mercury is excreted after being mobilized from the stored locations. It does seem to pull it from the tooth fillings, per my reading and some could be excreted into breastmilk.
http://www.mercola.com/article/mercu...x_protocol.htm
http://www.danasview.net/chelate.htm
http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/HgDetox.html

This article disagrees:http://books.google.com/books?id=3LQ...um=9&ct=result

Maybe FF/PB/SB or Tanya will chime in, as I'm no toxic metals expert.

Now, as I'm not well informed about this, I'd love more information to clarify my understanding. But, apparently, there are some alternatives which help to bind *released* mercury so that it is not redeposited in the organs, brain. (Clay? vit C? selenium?)

And there are some alternatives which *remove* the mercury from storage in the body, including removing it from our teeth fillings, if present. But, my understanding is that it is therefore *released* in the body then. Netting MORE circulating mercury DUE TO the "removal" agent. And more mercury going to your milk, I believe.

There are varying issues, whether mercury fillings are present, or whether nursing a baby, are the two biggies, I believe.


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#15 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 05:00 PM
 
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Kombucha's S. boulardii does displace and replace the candida, leading to die-off of the candida, if you have candida. Worse yet, if you have mercury toxins "stored" and bound up in the candida, they are released also. Other toxins are "stored" by the candida, "helpfully" also, apparently. So, even without mercury issues, we could have stored toxins released by killing off candida. Plus, you have the toxins of just the yeast die-off, just like when anything decomposes.

"Also, kombucha helps the liver to release more bodily waste by supplementing the already present glucuronic acid with more of the same, thereby increasing the liver's capacity to function efficiently and eliminate waste. It is also believed that it improves circulation and allows for the rapid and efficient elimination of waste." http://blog.worldvillage.com/health/...for_detox.html But, that all seems "good" except for nursing mamas, perhaps. Those who've started kombucha before pregnancy are in a different situation, than those *starting* to remove toxins while pregnant or nursing.

Theoretically, any probiotics or antifungals (Nystatin, Threelac, Diflucan, etc.) coconut oil, altered stomach ph, "gut healing" which result in the candida to die, could result in mercury and toxins to be released to the breastfed baby, per my understanding.


Also, the candida just repopulate the gut, if replacement probiotics are not available. Kombucha has the benefit of replacing the candida in the gut (for 2-3 weeks). Other probiotics are needed concurrently, as they do not *recolonize* the gut, except temporarily. We need a constant supply (weekly?) of "good bacteria" coming to the gut.

However, without adequate "removal" of the toxins (vit C, selenium, clay?, open detox pathways), the toxins are just released to the blood. When they are "adequately" removed by being bound to something (such as chlorella? clay? selenium?) they are mostly excreted in the colon, rather than in the breastmilk, I believe.

My understanding is that the vit C helps improve the detox pathways (perhaps improving nutrient absorption?), rather than binds with the toxins. Not sure about this though.

Pat

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#16 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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My understanding is that the vit C helps improve the detox pathways (perhaps improving nutrient absorption?), rather than binds with the toxins. Not sure about this though.

Pat
Vit C "frees" glutathione which binds with toxins. Is that what you mean by improving detox pathways?

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#17 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 05:18 PM
 
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Is chlorophyll relevant with toxin removal some how?
Chlorophyll is different than chlorella. I'm reading a bit to understand it better.

"A fiber rich diet will bind with fat-soluble toxins in bile and quickly move them out of the body through the next bowel movement. Pectin and algin are also effective and bind and removing mercury out of the body and preventing its reabsorption."

Found this book about toxins and breastfeeding!!
http://books.google.com/books?id=RNf...sult#PPA103,M1

You all come read it online!!

Pat
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#18 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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Vit C "frees" glutathione which binds with toxins. Is that what you mean by improving detox pathways?
That is great. Also, my understanding is that many nutrients are more effectively absorbed if adequate vit C is present.

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#19 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 05:33 PM
 
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Theoretically, any probiotics or antifungals (Nystatin, Threelac, Diflucan, etc.) coconut oil, altered stomach ph, "gut healing" which result in the candida to die, could result in mercury and toxins to be released to the breastfed baby, per my understanding.
newbie here (in the allergy forum at least) with a dumb question: should i be avoiding probiotics & kombucha now that i'm nursing?
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#20 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 07:09 PM
 
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newbie here (in the allergy forum at least) with a dumb question: should i be avoiding probiotics & kombucha now that i'm nursing?
No. Yes. Do you have mercury fillings? How many? Do you have candida, yeast, thrush? Had antibiotics during pregnancy or birth or while nursing? Taken any antifungals? Have you been taking either probiotics or kombucha for any duration already? Started before pregnancy?

Depends...


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#21 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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Not who originally asked the question, but have been wondering this. May I jump in?

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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
No. Yes. Do you have mercury fillings? How many? Do you have candida, yeast, thrush? Had antibiotics during pregnancy or birth or while nursing? Taken any antifungals? Have you been taking either probiotics or kombucha for any duration already? Started before pregnancy?
For me, I have 2 amalgams. No candida, antibiotics, antifungals. I started kombucha a few months ago and I drink about half a bottle per day, although sometimes a whole bottle. I don't know if it's relevant, but drinking kombucha sort of makes me feel mildly buzzed, but just for a minute or two. I highly doubt it's due to the minute alcohol content... is it from the detox effect? If so, is that a sign that I should NOT be drinking it since DS still nurses? I don't know if just the 2 amalgams are enough to worry about. Thanks for letting me barge in
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#22 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 08:26 PM
 
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Kombucha's S. boulardii does displace and replace the candida, leading to die-off of the candida, if you have candida. Worse yet, if you have mercury toxins "stored" and bound up in the candida, they are released also. Other toxins are "stored" by the candida, "helpfully" also, apparently. So, even without mercury issues, we could have stored toxins released by killing off candida. Plus, you have the toxins of just the yeast die-off, just like when anything decomposes.

"Also, kombucha helps the liver to release more bodily waste by supplementing the already present glucuronic acid with more of the same, thereby increasing the liver's capacity to function efficiently and eliminate waste. It is also believed that it improves circulation and allows for the rapid and efficient elimination of waste." http://blog.worldvillage.com/health/...for_detox.html But, that all seems "good" except for nursing mamas, perhaps. Those who've started kombucha before pregnancy are in a different situation, than those *starting* to remove toxins while pregnant or nursing.

Theoretically, any probiotics or antifungals (Nystatin, Threelac, Diflucan, etc.) coconut oil, altered stomach ph, "gut healing" which result in the candida to die, could result in mercury and toxins to be released to the breastfed baby, per my understanding.


Also, the candida just repopulate the gut, if replacement probiotics are not available. Kombucha has the benefit of replacing the candida in the gut (for 2-3 weeks). Other probiotics are needed concurrently, as they do not *recolonize* the gut, except temporarily. We need a constant supply (weekly?) of "good bacteria" coming to the gut.

However, without adequate "removal" of the toxins (vit C, selenium, clay?, open detox pathways), the toxins are just released to the blood. When they are "adequately" removed by being bound to something (such as chlorella? clay? selenium?) they are mostly excreted in the colon, rather than in the breastmilk, I believe.

My understanding is that the vit C helps improve the detox pathways (perhaps improving nutrient absorption?), rather than binds with the toxins. Not sure about this though.

Pat
Yes, it's spares glutathione...well to be more accurate it allows it to be recycled.

And yes to the above part. We use chlorophyll to bind the metals as well as clay (they can have different affinities so we cover our bases.) They are mostly secreted in the colon, but they *can* end up in the breastmilk.

Halogens are mobilized by iodine. So too can metals be.

In *general* chemicals are bound in fat, metals are bound in tissues and organs. There are exceptions.

I have fillings with no plans on getting them removed. In general I feel comfortable chelating (this is just me) because of all the precautions I have taken. I also monitor things pretty closely. My kids are metal toxic and they are chelating as well. Interestingly enough my sister just had her kids tested and they are in rough shape as well. We know my family has excretion problems but I have been working on that with success and now my sister is joining me.

I started iodine when my nursing ds was very young. He was a few weeks old when I was first tested and I started supplementation right then and there.

I have used clay for years as well as chlorophyll. We used to use chlorella, but for a variety of reasons we are sticking with chlorophyll. We also use NAC (reduced intracellular glutathione) vitamin C, selenium, biotin, folate, B 12 etc. etc. etc.

Of course this is only part of our routine. We also use homeopathy and nutrition. We drink and eat a ton of greens (all of us) and don't use any foods that aren't real. We use nutritive herbs. We do supplement with minerals as well. Zinc and cobalt are big for us. Probiotics for the most part are taken in the form of food (yogurt, saurkraut and pickles are our favorites!)
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No. Yes. Do you have mercury fillings? How many? Do you have candida, yeast, thrush? Had antibiotics during pregnancy or birth or while nursing? Taken any antifungals? Have you been taking either probiotics or kombucha for any duration already? Started before pregnancy?

Depends...


Pat
yes, at least 4 mercury fillings. no: never had candida/yeast/thrush. one dose of abx during homebirth for GBS (no abx otherwise). no antifungals. drank komucha pre-pregnant, stopped during pregnancy. took probiotics for last half of pregnancy. i drank kefir, but quit since i'm off dairy. i ate kim chee & sauerkraut during pregnancy, and continue to eat it daily.

so, what does that mean for nursing my baby (almost 3 months old) and toxins?
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Yes, it's spares glutathione...well to be more accurate it allows it to be recycled.

And yes to the above part. We use chlorophyll to bind the metals as well as clay (they can have different affinities so we cover our bases.) They are mostly secreted in the colon, but they *can* end up in the breastmilk.

Halogens are mobilized by iodine. So too can metals be.

In *general* chemicals are bound in fat, metals are bound in tissues and organs. There are exceptions.

I have fillings with no plans on getting them removed. In general I feel comfortable chelating (this is just me) because of all the precautions I have taken. I also monitor things pretty closely. My kids are metal toxic and they are chelating as well. Interestingly enough my sister just had her kids tested and they are in rough shape as well. We know my family has excretion problems but I have been working on that with success and now my sister is joining me.

I started iodine when my nursing ds was very young. He was a few weeks old when I was first tested and I started supplementation right then and there.

I have used clay for years as well as chlorophyll. We used to use chlorella, but for a variety of reasons we are sticking with chlorophyll. We also use NAC (reduced intracellular glutathione) vitamin C, selenium, biotin, folate, B 12 etc. etc. etc.

Of course this is only part of our routine. We also use homeopathy and nutrition. We drink and eat a ton of greens (all of us) and don't use any foods that aren't real. We use nutritive herbs. We do supplement with minerals as well. Zinc and cobalt are big for us. Probiotics for the most part are taken in the form of food (yogurt, saurkraut and pickles are our favorites!)
So you use clay and chlorophyll to bind to the metals that are released by chelating with iodine and other things? And then you support the pathways with the above mentioned vitamins & minerals? Is that right?

Mom to DMI & Silly Apple
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#25 of 93 Old 03-04-2009, 09:17 PM
 
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Yes. Mostly. LOL. Some of the minerals are therapeutic. Our copper is through the roof so the zinc is used to start kicking copper and rectify the imbalance. But yes, you basically have it!
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Yes. Mostly. LOL. Some of the minerals are therapeutic. Our copper is through the roof so the zinc is used to start kicking copper and rectify the imbalance. But yes, you basically have it!
To what do you attribute your high copper? I have extraordinarily high copper. Maybe my gammadyne zinc will help.

Is there a resource that can help one figure out what is needed to do what? What chelates what? What binds what? What assists what?

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#27 of 93 Old 03-05-2009, 01:35 AM
 
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For me, I have 2 amalgams. No candida, antibiotics, antifungals. I started kombucha a few months ago and I drink about half a bottle per day, although sometimes a whole bottle. I don't know if it's relevant, but drinking kombucha sort of makes me feel mildly buzzed, but just for a minute or two. I highly doubt it's due to the minute alcohol content... is it from the detox effect? If so, is that a sign that I should NOT be drinking it since DS still nurses? I don't know if just the 2 amalgams are enough to worry about. Thanks for letting me barge in
My opinion, is that the kombucha in small doses is fine with few amalgams and no history of recent antibiotics.

Personally, I'd choose kefir (water or milk) and fermented vegetables for my probiotics. And only occasional use of the kombucha, couple ounces, couple of times a week.

Tanya, who knows more about detox, will disagree.

Pat

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#28 of 93 Old 03-05-2009, 01:38 AM
 
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Tanya, who knows more about detox, will disagree.

Pat
Have I ever mentioned that I love how you, Tanya, SB and a few other select people totally know who to turn to to ask about certain things and what points you'll disagree on?
I feel so privileged to be able to have you all to turn to.

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#29 of 93 Old 03-05-2009, 01:40 AM
 
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yes, at least 4 mercury fillings. no: never had candida/yeast/thrush. one dose of abx during homebirth for GBS (no abx otherwise). no antifungals. drank komucha pre-pregnant, stopped during pregnancy. took probiotics for last half of pregnancy. i drank kefir, but quit since i'm off dairy. i ate kim chee & sauerkraut during pregnancy, and continue to eat it daily.

so, what does that mean for nursing my baby (almost 3 months old) and toxins?
With four mercury fillings and a dose of antibiotics, I'd personally choose not to drink much kombucha while nursing. I'd reconsider consuming raw goat's milk kefir, in addition to the kimchee and sauerkraut. Kefir has its own beneficial properties and cultured dairy is much more easily toleranted than "dairy".

The issue is that the mercury is bound in the gut in candida, so you don't want to kill a bunch off with the kombucha. I feel like Susan Weed, 'candida is our friend'... https://www.mothering.com/discussions...candida+friend

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sonnambula, thank you for your post above. Always very good to hear your perspective.

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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
My opinion, is that the kombucha in small doses is fine with few amalgams and no history of recent antibiotics.

Personally, I'd choose kefir (water or milk) and fermented vegetables for my probiotics. And only occasional use of the kombucha, couple ounces, couple of times a week.
Thanks Pat. I also do goat kefir & fermented veggies. I'll try not to go crazy w/ the kombucha.. it's just sooooooo yummy!

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the more we know, the more we realize, we don't know
So true! I've done so much over the past year... but there is so much more to learn and implement.
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