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CookAMH 06-12-2009 06:52 PM

I posted this in the c-section allergies thread but thought I'd do it separately as I haven't gotten any responses. Any help is appreciated. Many questions!

I had a c-section and I've been battling a yeast rash in my 6 week old for 4 1/2 weeks. The rash is red dots on either side of his anus, red on his cheeks, with little bumps in the creases of his legs. I started on probiotics two days after surgery but it must not have been enough. I thought I had a decent regimen for the rash (vinegar in bath, air time, lotrimin alternating with coconut oil/oregano oil/TTO mixture) but the rash is NOT healing. He was pretty fussy for a few days last week week and I tried cutting out dairy, not sure if it would make a difference so soon (if even an issue) but he was back to himself after a day. Then I had a Wendy's frostie Saturday night and Sunday morning, he was in obvious discomfort then he's been fine since. I'm not sure how long it would take to get out of my system if the dairy alone could be causing the rash.

Either way, I believe I need to kill some yeast quickly and from reading what has been said in the long c-section allergy thread, I want to do something quicker than diet would do.

I had a yeast infection that I thought was gone by the end of my pregnancy but I now think it was not. We do not vaccinate. Breastfeeding is going well. No thrush that I can tell (pink nipples but not really any pain and no white patches). Poops are good though not as seedy as they have been, more wet, but mustardy-yellow. He's gained over three pounds in 6 weeks. I have no fillings.

I asked for an Rx for nystatin powder today from my m/w but she can't prescribe that for me. I then called the pedi to get one for DS, and pedi was willing to go with my idea of treating internally and they'll call in the powder for him, but the pharmacy won't have it till Monday. I was about to order Threelac overnight to arrive Monday before the pedi called back.

Should I take the nystatin power myself, OR give it to him? Wait for Threelac? Any help? I purchased a good probiotic and Candex in preparation for taking nystatin myself, as well and my 6 week old's Pharmex infant probiotics arrived today. Seems like I shouldn't bother treating the yeast in him if I don't treat it in me. I wanted to start the kill today. We travel on the 24th so I hope the die off can start and mostly feel better by then (but continue the kill). Is that foolish to try? Should I wait until after the trip?

Should I perhaps just try the probiotic on him and see if that helps? I'd think the yeast would still need to be killed though.

1. If I do Threelac, do I also take the enzyme (candex)? Is oxygen elements a must-have with Threelac?
2. I have nystatin cream...should I try that again on his bottom?
3. What order and spacing should I do the nystatin, probiotic and enzyme, or with Threelac, oxygen elements and enzyme? One probiotic is 12b one enough when I do take it?
4. Is this a dosage to follow if I use nystatin? (Dr. Buscher) Is the children's dose ok for young infant?
5. Should I expect his rash to get worse after the kill before it gets better?

I want to start this ASAP!! I would like to get this going before our trip unless that's dumb to try (we leave in 12 days, though perhaps the worst of the die-off should be well over by then), otherwise it'll be about three weeks before I can do anything about it and I am really concerned about his rash. For this weekend, should I perhaps do Candex, probiotic in me and him, and drink diluted GSE (myself)?

ETA: Apparenty the powder is not available, only the liquid. Last night I decided to go ahead and order the Threelac and oxygen elements. DS had some dark flecks in his diaper this morning - from what I read, that seems to be yeast die off, right? Also, I was pretty gassy last night after only taking 2 candex and then later on, a probiotic. His rash is also not as red but I'm not sure if that was his chiro adjustment, me stopping peanut butter, or his own probiotic, or the thicker barrier cream we used yesterday

CookAMH 06-13-2009 02:00 PM

The last couple diapers, he has had some dark flecks throughout his poop. Die-off already after two doses of Candex for me, probiotics, and three doses of probiotics for him.

WuWei 06-13-2009 03:12 PM

Mama have you ever had any mercury fillings removed?

What probiotics have you been taking so far, how long?

What supplements do you take, describe your diet? Cause basically, unless you improve nutrient bio-availability (with stomach acid) and open detox pathways, you are just dumping die-off toxins (from the candida) to baby via breastmilk, plus his own die-off toxins to detox. And the candida just comes back. The candida is there *for a reason*. Generally due to a leaky gut--- secondary to your food intolerances.


CookAMH 06-13-2009 03:26 PM

Thanks for the reply. I've never had a cavity.

I took a probiotic from a local pharmacist/ND/nutritionist at times during pregnancy and was taking GNC acidophilus since the birth. Yesterday, I switched to Udo's Adult's Probiotic (8 strains).

From the threads I read on the c-section allergies thread (got through 26 pages so far), I had the understanding that doing a yeast kill can get rid of the nasties and repopulate good guys, and then for maintenance and avoidance, diet plays a huge roll. And that diet alone would take forever to get rid of the yeast.

My diet in the past hasn't been terrible or great (nothing avoided basically but went for whole grains, natural sugars, not too good with veggies, drank raw milk, used coconut oil, not a lot of caffeine). Right now, I am off gluten, dairy and sugar. Also, no malt or vinegar or peanut butter. I had been taking the rest of my prenatals (from the same local guys above, better sourced) but haven't lately, and haven't taken C for a couple weeks either. I was taking 3-4,000mg of ascorbate a day. I have this multi that I kep forgetting to take:

I plan to see an ND in the next week or so to see about restoring nutrient levels that were depleted from pregnancy and still with breastfeeding.

WuWei 06-13-2009 03:53 PM

The gut is 70-80% of the immune system. It all starts with nutrient-dense foods, effective digestion (with adequate stomach acid), absorption of nutrients (in the gut with balanced microbials), and detoxification of the chemical byproducts of foods and environmental toxins by the liver, with adequate bio-available nutrients to support the detox pathways.

I would do whole food probiotics, cod liver oil, magnesium, vit. C, zinc, coconut oil, bone broths, green juices. Support the immune system.

Gut healing: Where to start? Help 101

Are you keeping a food journal? It sounds like there are more foods which YOU are reacting to, perhaps. Generally, it is the mama's leaky gut which baby has difficulty with. Baby gets probiotics from your milk. I always recommend whole food probiotics.

Are you doing any Bubbies sauerkraut or water kefir, fermented vegetables, coconut yogurt? Cabbage products help with stomach acid which helps improved bio-availability of nutrients which help to open detox pathways.


CookAMH 06-13-2009 04:02 PM

Thanks. So I understand, are you pointing towards that instead of a yeast kill? I believe there is a yeast issue in addition to a possible leaky gut issue. I know those will give some longer term help but I also want some immediate relief and would like to try both approaches. It's gonna take me a while to learn how do make all those foods (I own Nourishing Traditions but haven't been able to read very much yet. I'll pull that out now!).

I don't know how to tell whether I'm reacting to anything. I don't have a lot of the symptoms other people complain of. I have a weird skin thing on my chin that I got during pregnancy that is slowly going away now that I've had my son.

I have non-synthetic CLO but haven't been faithful with it but took some today.

ETA: We have a couple trips coming up where we will not have much control over our diet, and we will be moving this summer. I will not be able to have the regularity of the gut healing foods to have that take care of the yeast (unless I completely misunderstand) but once we move, I can delve into it a lot more and implement it more fully.

I was able to look into kefir and if DS seems to be bothered by dairy, with the way kefir changs the milk, is it safe to use raw milk to make kefir?

WuWei 06-13-2009 04:44 PM

My concern is that die-off makes it much worse for baby and mama since you are increasing the toxins without opening detox pathways. Therefore, the toxins go deeper and folks end up with bloody mucusy stools, rather than just a rash. They end up with severe reflux and abdominal pain and baby screaming with pain. Then you get sleep deprivation and insanity along with trying to identify culprit foods, and a limited diet which only exacerbates nutrient deficiencies for both baby and mama. And long-term, they end up with infections, asthma, and impaired immune systems. This is how auto-immune issues develop.

For a non-nursing adult, sure do the hard and fast detox. You only release toxins to yourself.

1. Epsom salt baths.

2. Bone broth.

3. Green juices or liver.

4. Water kefir.

This is my "Cliffs Notes" version for healthy guts.

When you make the candida obsolete, it goes away.


CookAMH 06-13-2009 05:59 PM

I've been thinking about what you've said and I feel discouraged by it because by the time I can get my hands on what I need to do some gut healing (ie to order kefir grains or powder) it will be later this week, and then we go out of town not long after that and can do none of this then, so I'm putting it off by three weeks with his rash persisting. I have been mulling over though how you said the toxins will just dump into him through my leaky gut.

Since Threelac kills yeast and repopulates, would that be less of a discomfort compared to Candex which is killing the yeast but not repopulating (however I"m taking the probiotic to repopulate)? If I understand you correctly, I may be killing yeast but it's leaking out my gut anyway instead of going out through my bowels and it's going to DS. Is that what the flecks are in his poop and not his own yeast being killed off?

Just got off the phone with my local HFS and they carry kefir powder. I don't have coconut water though but will the powder work on coconut milk? Also, can I use raw milk even though DS seems to react to it based on how the milk is converted?

mamafish9 06-13-2009 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by CookAMH View Post
Just got off the phone with my local HFS and they carry kefir powder. I don't have coconut water though but will the powder work on coconut milk? Also, can I use raw milk even though DS seems to react to it based on how the milk is converted?
No idea on the yeast, but the kefir powder I found at my local HFS has skim milk powder in it. I know kefir is a lot more digestible than straight milk (I'm currently trialing homemade raw goat's milk kefir to see how that goes with my dairy sensitive guy). Milk kefir grains work in coconut milk, but I don't know about the powder.

I'm sure it's really hard to contemplate this while traveling, but maybe you can do parts? Epsom salts baths are easy and really healing, and you can buy some green powders that might do for the short term to make green smoothies? There are even a few places online and stores where you can buy premade coconut water kefir (not sure where you'll be traveling, I know body ecology sells one on their site).

WuWei 06-13-2009 06:27 PM

I understand the frustration. Basically, the mama's leaky gut (as evidenced by yeast rashes) allows undigested food proteins through to baby. That is why so many foods become intolerant. The baby is exposed to undigested proteins when the mama has a leaky gut. The yeast is just the tip of the iceberg. Killing off the yeast doesn't address the leaky gut. Repopulating it does help. But, adequate stomach acid allows nutrients to be absorbed which open detox pathways, EVEN IF the gut is leaking.

When we kill off bacteria or yeast, they decompose into toxins for us to detox. If the detox pathways are overloaded by undigested proteins (in mama, and from mama) the toxins are "too much" for the body and thus you get symptoms: rashes, bloody, mucusy stools, reflux due to undigested proteins, imbalances in the body ph, and asthma, etc.

Sure, three weeks isn't going to make a huge difference one way or the other. You may get worse symptoms, you may get less symptoms due to repopulating the gut. But, add random foods which your body may not be processing properly (while eating here there and yonder), and not opening the detox pathways, PLUS the added toxin load of die-off, and you'll likely get MORE, worsening intensity of symptoms. Just read on the Allergies forum a bit and you'll see, those who don't eliminate the culprit foods "develop" more and More and MORE symptoms and more foods to which the child DOES react. It is a cascade of food intolerances due to nutrient deficiencies due to limited foods, due to worsening leaky gut.

Just saying, addressing the symptom doesn't resolve the cause. Add toxins to a leaky gut and more food chemical byproducts while traveling and you are not setting yourself up for improvement, imo.

To make coconut water kefir, you need REAL water kefir grains and any coconut water. Get the canned water kefir, order now on line and find some REAL kefir grains. No refrigeration needed, you can take it with you. Although, you need nutrient dense foods to help open detox pathways.

However, many babies have issue with coconut, it seems, on the Allergy forum. Water kefir and Bubbies sauerkraut and kombucha all have multiple strains of beneficial probiotics which repopulate and colonize the gut. It just ain't natural to disrupt the gut without expecting a rebound effect, ime.

I could send you water kefir grains. But, with the summer heat, they'd probably die. There is someone local to you with water kefir grains, I'm confident you could find some in 48 hours. Post on the Kefir thread in Swap, post in Allergy forum, post in FYT, post on the Making Kefir yahoogroup. Even the commercial milk kefir is better than none, imo, unless either of you or baby are IgE to casein.

Milk kefir for babies has been demonstrated to lessen allergies. But, it isn't a panacea. You need a food journal and to eliminate the culprit foods from your diet to heal your gut. There are things you can ADD to help heal the gut also. The yeast is basically irrelevant. It is just a symptom of the body being out of balance. Not the cause of the body being out of balance. Do you see the difference?


CookAMH 06-13-2009 06:40 PM

Thank you for explaining all that. If I jumped on this by Monday, would there be some benefit in a week or so after?

Could you weigh on the question of using raw milk to make kefir if he seems to react to dairy?

Are you suggesting to not use the powder that is at the store? I was going to run down there now for it.

And in the meantime, can I take more of my probiotics but lay off the Candex?

Thank you.

WuWei 06-13-2009 06:53 PM

Any kefir is better than no kefir, IMO, unless IgE allergy to the milk. Raw milk is TONS better than commercial milk. However, with the starter, you have to heat the milk to kill off all the benefits of the raw milk. The kefir starter has only about 10 beneficial microbials. They are not in balance with raw milk microbials and the raw milk microbials could theoretically over grow the kefir microbials. This is not the same with REAL kefir grains which have 30+ benefical microbials to balance raw milk microbials. There are mamas in the Traditional foods forum who do not heat their raw milk and use starter. I'm not comfortable recommending that for mama or baby, personally. Although, we drive an hour to buy raw milk for our use and I make REAL milk kefir with it, unheated.

There are many differences in the microbials. If you heat the raw milk that is still better than commercial milk, imo. So, yes, make kefir ASAP with ANY type of milk.

Yes, there should be benefit. Not certain of your symptoms, but kefir and yogurt can be used topically and vaginally also. Coconut oil helps with topical rashes of yeast. Although, that is insufficient a "treatment" as it is merely symptomatic relief.

ACV and lavender or baking soda baths help with topical rashes also. The Epsom salt baths will help most with opening detox pathways. The magnesium and sulfate are both essential and commonly deficient.

HTH, Pat

WuWei 06-13-2009 06:58 PM

You want to start slowly with probiotics, imo. Some are better than none. As most capsule probiotics are denatured by the time they reach your large intestine, it is ok to take them, just not a lot of benefit. And you have to detox dead probiotics. I'm just a whole foods probiotic fan.

Check for Bubbies sauerkraut or dill pickles at the store. They are in the refrigerated section. Check for any type of yogurt, with "Active Live Cultures". Look for dairy free, goat's milk yogurt is more easily digested than cow's milk.

I'm reluctant about dairy kefir for a baby intolerant of dairy, however. It is a toss up, since I don't believe that dairy is meant for human consumption. Although, I do use a tablespoon of dairy kefir each day. Dh drinks raw milk.


CookAMH 06-13-2009 06:59 PM

Thanks for a quick reply. I called my HFS and they also have kombucha and bubbies saurkraut and already made cow's milk kefir.

Do I also continue to eliminate gluten, dairy and sugar I was doing that in light of doing a yeast kill?

ETA: just saw your other post...

I'm not sure what an IgE allergy is but we've had no testing.

What do you mean by detoxing probiotics?

yogurt ok with his seeming reaction to dairy? Is goat's milk yogurt not considered dairy? I like greek style yogurt.

WuWei 06-13-2009 07:29 PM

Food journal.

Limit the cultured dairy. A tablespoon of each a day will be great. Add the Bubbies and small amounts of kombucha for you. Start slowly. You'll get die-off. Do the Epsom salt baths.

When bacteria or yeast die, they create "toxins" for the body to detox. Any food byproduct is detoxified by the body, mostly by the liver. There are herbal infusions to support the liver, milk thistle is great for nursing mamas. Nettles helps with nutrients. Kelp in small amounts helps. Read the links, lol.

Yes, eliminate all dairy and gluten for 6 months, minimum, imo. I'd focus on getting water kefir grains asap, still. Sugar isn't food.

IgE allergy is any immediate rash/hives due to allergen exposure, can occur due to minute amounts. Here is a list of hidden diary:

Hidden corn:


mamafish9 06-15-2009 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I understand the frustration. Basically, the mama's leaky gut (as evidenced by yeast rashes) allows undigested food proteins through to baby. That is why so many foods become intolerant. The baby is exposed to undigested proteins when the mama has a leaky gut. The yeast is just the tip of the iceberg. Killing off the yeast doesn't address the leaky gut. Repopulating it does help. But, adequate stomach acid allows nutrients to be absorbed which open detox pathways, EVEN IF the gut is leaking.
Pat, this entire post was a beautiful, beautiful thing. But the bolded line makes so much sense to me for my DS. A place to focus.

OP, you are getting some amazing advice here - good luck as you travel, I know that makes changes that much harder to make!

CookAMH 06-15-2009 05:08 PM

(TMI) I noticed blood in my stools today - what connection would that have? There was fresh blood on the TP and red flecks in the stool....

WuWei 06-15-2009 09:58 PM

What have you been doing differently lately? Any hidden dairy? GMO-corn? Those are the most inflammatory foods in our house.

What about CLO, CO, zinc, vit C, these help with gut healing. Nutrients to help with inflammation vit C, b-vitamins, vit D, magnesium, zinc. Large changes in probiotics/antibiotics/anti-microbials can be inflammatory to the gut also. (GSE, some spices, some foods)

Often, it feels like searching for a needle in a haystack, as they say. We are very liberal with our diet variety; however, we also are consistent with gut healing protocols, and avoid commercial additives in food (processed foods are rare). So, it might be a million things. The food journaling helps to track down the culprits.

Other alternatives are constipation, dehydration causing an anal fissure.


CookAMH 06-15-2009 11:04 PM

Thanks. It could have been the probiotics. I got some food probiotics and also had already started supplements, so maybe that is it. No hidden dairy that I can think of (I did not react to dairy (or corn) previously). Have been off gluten for two days and dairy for more than a week. Am taking CLO, C, coconut oil.

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