Our test results.... updated #12, #21, #146 - Page 13 - Mothering Forums
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#361 of 426 Old 03-15-2010, 11:54 PM
 
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Yeah- I think you're probably right. Which really sucks, because our plan was to TTC this spring, and there's no way in hell... I'm just too broken.
Oh man - no, that's so not what I meant I was hoping it was another way to investigate, not a total downer.

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#362 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I know Deb. I'm the downer, not you.

Man... I gotta find a safe mag. (I'm using NC, but DD doesn't like it.)

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#363 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:07 AM
 
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I know Deb. I'm the downer, not you.

Man... I gotta find a safe mag. (I'm using NC, but DD doesn't like it.)
Yeah - but I was trying to find something hopeful to think about, not yet another thing to add to your crappy day. Bleck.

And yeah, work on the mag thing. I forgot she had high antimony - and it is unbelievable how much it messed with my DS. The upside is, I think it only took about 5 months to get to the point where it was no longer affecting his mag at all (and that's with a VERY slow chelation approach).

Cutler recommends methylation supps to chelate antimony - DS couldn't tolerate them, but let me go figure out what they were...

Here.. methyl B-12(100mcg/lb) / folate(10mcg/lb) / TMG(10-20mg/lb)

Or SAMe, 5mg/lb.

So, for a 25lb kid, 2500mcg methyl B-12, 250mcg folate, 250-500mg TMG. Or 125mg of SAMe.

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#364 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:08 AM
 
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To add to Deb's theory (wouldn't that be awesome if she's right?) methylation are what clear antimony and arsenic. So folate and B12. For us, folate is what keeps dd's low mag at bay. Since you still have environmental allergy symptoms (right?), have you thought about increasing methylation support for both of you? Have you tested B12 levels?

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#365 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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uh.... I don't think we've tested b12, but I'm not certain. I have really mild enviro symptoms occasionally- nothing like they used to be though. I've added the b-complex and was taking 5mtfr (until I ran out), along with my multi. What else to increase methylation? And I started giving DD a sprinkle of my b-complex.

Oh yeah- I was going to ask you guys- Thorne has 3 different types of mag. Any opinions on which one I should get?

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#366 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:23 AM
 
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uh.... I don't think we've tested b12, but I'm not certain. I have really mild enviro symptoms occasionally- nothing like they used to be though. I've added the b-complex and was taking 5mtfr (until I ran out), along with my multi. What else to increase methylation? And I started giving DD a sprinkle of my b-complex.

Oh yeah- I was going to ask you guys- Thorne has 3 different types of mag. Any opinions on which one I should get?
I just posted the methylation supps and amounts that Cutler recommends for chelating antimony, if that helps. DS is really sensitive to methylation supps, so they were a bust for us, but if they worked for you, that would be great!

I think we used the mag citramate from thorne (has mag citrate and mag malate, so I figured that gave us two things to work!). And it doesn't taste as foul as mag glycinate (although it by no means tastes good).

ETA: Also, did you figure out the source for DD's high antimony (mattress, carpet, and jammies are the most likely)?

This is the methyl b12 we use - not a lot of ingredients - but probably the citric acid is corn? http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas...enges/129?at=0

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#367 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:27 AM
 
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uh.... I don't think we've tested b12, but I'm not certain. I have really mild enviro symptoms occasionally- nothing like they used to be though. I've added the b-complex and was taking 5mtfr (until I ran out), along with my multi. What else to increase methylation? And I started giving DD a sprinkle of my b-complex.
For methylation - sulfur foods (lamb, broccoli), folate, b12 are the biggies, then B6, B2, then mag. The 'back door' path is phosphatidyl serine, phosphatidyl choline, DMG/TMG (betaine). I give dd 400ish mcg/day.

If you can get B12 tested (tomorrow?), try and get MMA (methylmalonic acid) tested as well - it's a more sensitive indicator.

I think I'm remembering you at JR's with the allergies... When did they start to get better? Were they bad when you were pg? I'm thinking about J's tongue tie...

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#368 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 12:54 AM
 
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I think I'm remembering you at JR's with the allergies... When did they start to get better? Were they bad when you were pg? I'm thinking about J's tongue tie...
oh dear lord, my house. there's enough allergens in this house to take out an elephant.

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#369 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 01:14 AM
 
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oh dear lord, my house. there's enough allergens in this house to take out an elephant.
But isn't it more about the degree of the reaction than the trigger(s)? I wasn't having any issues...

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#370 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 01:17 AM
 
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But isn't it more about the degree of the reaction than the trigger(s)? I wasn't having any issues...
I suppose that's true but I'm still having issues. (bird dander allergy) I barely remember what it's like not to be stuffed up- which sucks bc that was one of my when I quit smoking.

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#371 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 01:22 AM
 
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I suppose that's true but I'm still having issues. (bird dander allergy) I barely remember what it's like not to be stuffed up- which sucks bc that was one of my when I quit smoking.
How are *you* with folate/B12/methylation?

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#372 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 01:43 AM
 
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How are *you* with folate/B12/methylation?
Not sure, but those are the next 2 supps on my list for the beginning of April.

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#373 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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lol- I forgot about my reaction at JR's house. That's honestly the worst allergy reaction I've had since I moved back out West. When I lived in the Midwest they were horrible- I was allergic to everything there. But out here in Seattle, they rarely bother me at all.

So can I just use the b-complex for methylation? Or do I need to do separate supps for each thing? I will look into the TMG.

I assume the antimony was from the carpet in our old apartment. It was installed *right* before we moved in, and that was when I was about 2mo pregnant. It was the super-cheapo apartment carpet that was LOADED with stain retardants and stuff. (I know because all the stains by our front door- made from tracking in sticky juice from those trees with the horrible orange berries- came out in about 30 seconds with a wet washcloth after being there for a year. ) So not only was it offgassing (and shedding tiny fibers everywhere) while I was preggo, but DD was crawling around on it for her first year. I've always been really careful about not getting flame retardant pj's. Her mattress is conventional, but until a month ago she rarely slept in it. So I'm assuming it was all the carpet and now we're clear of that source... but who knows. It would be interesting to do another hair test someday and see how it looks.

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#374 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:02 AM
 
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lol- I forgot about my reaction at JR's house. That's honestly the worst allergy reaction I've had since I moved back out West. When I lived in the Midwest they were horrible- I was allergic to everything there. But out here in Seattle, they rarely bother me at all.

So can I just use the b-complex for methylation? Or do I need to do separate supps for each thing? I will look into the TMG.
Ah, environmental allergies are weird.

I don't count the B12 in a B complex since it's not sublingual, and I'm a fan of more good folate than the 400mcg that's usually in them. But for the other B's, yeah, B complex unless there are specific deficiency symptoms popping up (like for us with riboflavin).

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#375 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:05 AM
 
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I'd try a sublingual methyl b12 if you can - it's way better absorbed that way, and I'd be concerned with your DD's schmucked digestion, she won't get hardly any from swallowing it.

Could totally be the carpet... what do you sleep on (I assume that's where she's been sleeping)?

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#376 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There's no way DD could work a sublingual. She would just chew it up and swallow it.

We sleep on a 10+ year old mattress. Ehhh... I forgot about the 5-ish year old tempurpedic topper. I have no idea what is in that stuff... probably don't want to know. hmm. I can't take it off the bed though- I bought it after a car accident because of my back/hip pain... and now my hips are hurting so bad again that it's waking me up even having that topper on the mattress.

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There's no way DD could work a sublingual. She would just chew it up and swallow it.
That still counts. Mine (Jarrow) even says on the bottle that chewing it is an option. Either way, the high dose getting swallowed means *some* can be absorbed via passive diffusion vs nothing from the b complex-sized doses. (Assuming non-optimal gut condition, of course )

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#378 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh man... I'm looking around at iHerb and saw that Solgar makes a liquid b12+b complex, but it's cyano not methyl. And calcium folinate- is that an acceptable form? I noticed that Thorne uses that along with 5mtfr in some of it's multis.

eta: I'm not finding anything that I think would be safe for DD. It's all flavored and sweetened. I was doing the Source Naturals myself for a while, and she seemed ok with that, but I don't think she would be ok with them directly with all those ingredients.

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#379 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 03:32 AM
 
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Calcium folinate = folinic acid. It's a little easier to convert, I think, than folic acid.. or something like that.

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Oh man... I'm looking around at iHerb and saw that Solgar makes a liquid b12+b complex, but it's cyano not methyl. And calcium folinate- is that an acceptable form? I noticed that Thorne uses that along with 5mtfr in some of it's multis.

eta: I'm not finding anything that I think would be safe for DD. It's all flavored and sweetened. I was doing the Source Naturals myself for a while, and she seemed ok with that, but I don't think she would be ok with them directly with all those ingredients.
Calcium folinate is folinic acid, which is the other food form. I'm taking half that. If there are MTHFR issues, you'll want at least some 5mthf, though.

Are you having trouble finding B12 or folate? The Thorne folates (both forms) don't have much taste at all and are easy to hide. If you're having lots of trouble with B12, I think Mercola might have a nasal spray that would hopefully be safer and still well-absorbed? Or you could try the source naturals and if she does react, then keep them for yourself?

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Trouble with the sublingual b12. Yeah- I guess I could just try it... stupid flavorings and sweeteners.

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Trouble with the sublingual b12. Yeah- I guess I could just try it... stupid flavorings and sweeteners.
No kidding. B12 and xylitol candy were dd's introduction to candy and what gave her her sweet tooth... Of course there was a bit of enabling from dh, but still...

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So is the type of b12 different in the sublingual, or just that you're taking it sans capsule so some of it gets absorbed before the gut? Like- could I just get some capsules of b12 and dump some in her food like I do with all the other capsules we use? eta: or mix it with some honey so that she's licking it off a spoon for a bit?

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#384 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 05:22 AM
 
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There's no way DD could work a sublingual. She would just chew it up and swallow it.

We sleep on a 10+ year old mattress. Ehhh... I forgot about the 5-ish year old tempurpedic topper. I have no idea what is in that stuff... probably don't want to know. hmm. I can't take it off the bed though- I bought it after a car accident because of my back/hip pain... and now my hips are hurting so bad again that it's waking me up even having that topper on the mattress.
DS just chews the jarrow ones too - I give him half, I figure more gets absorbed vs. swallowed that way.

Yeah - your mattress is almost guaranteed to be full of flame retardants, and the topper. The deal is, that likely means your DD has higher antimony now than when you did the last hair test (due to continued exposure) - I only bring that up because it might be part of the explanation for why you are seeing things getting worse.

Based on what I've seen with DS as his antimony decreased, the relationship with how it affects magnesium isn't steady (e.g. a little less antimony didn't always mean a little better mag symptoms). It was more like there were major thresholds/tipping points where things suddenly got a lot better (and I can think back to some moments in the past where things seemed to have suddenly gotten worse).

People wrap their mattresses in a special kind of plastic to prevent the antimony getting through, but IMO, that's awful to sleep on. So not sure what to suggest... I made a wool topper with wool from whitelotus.net - maybe you could make a kid sized topper just for her to put on top of your topper? Does she stay enough in one spot that could work?

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So is the type of b12 different in the sublingual, or just that you're taking it sans capsule so some of it gets absorbed before the gut? Like- could I just get some capsules of b12 and dump some in her food like I do with all the other capsules we use? eta: or mix it with some honey so that she's licking it off a spoon for a bit?
Great question, no idea on the answer .

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yeah, our carpet was I don't know how old, at least 5-10 years? And I think it was the major source for dd. So the mattress is entirely likely in addition to the apartment carpet.

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So is the type of b12 different in the sublingual, or just that you're taking it sans capsule so some of it gets absorbed before the gut? Like- could I just get some capsules of b12 and dump some in her food like I do with all the other capsules we use? eta: or mix it with some honey so that she's licking it off a spoon for a bit?
I think that'd totally work! The hard part would just be finding a capsule with a high enough dosage. The passive diffusion in the gut doesn't really kick in till 500mcg+ for an adult. Below that, and it's pretty much just candy.

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#386 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:03 PM
 
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We have Methyl B12 from Natural Factors, 1000mcg. Ds chews/sucks 1/2 occasionally. Other Ingredients: Lactose (from milk), cellulose, croscarmellose sodium, magnesium stearate (vegetable grade).

Just read: The following drugs can interfere with the absorption or utilization of vitamin B12: antibiotics, Aldomet®, Atromid-S®, Azidothymidine (AZT), Azulfidine®, birth control pills, Cimetidine (Tagamet®), Metformin (Glucophage®), Isoniazid (Laniazid®), Pepcid®, Prevacid®, Prilosec®, Ranitidine (Zantac®).


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#387 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ummmm.... that has lactose in it.

So will just having a topper help in the case of the mattress? I mean I use a mattress pad, so we're not right up against anything... does that make a difference? Or do we need to quickly move our latex mattress from IKEA way up the wish list?

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#388 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:34 PM
 
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breast milk has lactose.

IgE to dairy?


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#389 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:45 PM
 
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So will just having a topper help in the case of the mattress? I mean I use a mattress pad, so we're not right up against anything... does that make a difference? Or do we need to quickly move our latex mattress from IKEA way up the wish list?
Does the mattress pad have flame retardants? This is what I'm sloooowly working on right now. Trying to figure out reasonable alternatives since we're in the market for new ones anyway. So far, haven't done any research

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#390 of 426 Old 03-16-2010, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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breast milk has lactose.

IgE to dairy?


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Yes, very much IgE. And I'm pretty sure their lactose is from cows, not humans.

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Does the mattress pad have flame retardants? This is what I'm sloooowly working on right now. Trying to figure out reasonable alternatives since we're in the market for new ones anyway. So far, haven't done any research
Huh- that's a good question. Off to see if they normally put it in mattress pads. I just assumed no- it's kind of like a thick sheet. Never crossed my mind that they might.

eta: I can't find anything either way about flame retardants in mattress pads. I'm going to go with no.

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