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#151 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 06:02 AM
 
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Another question: what about the fact that a candida infection is at least partially if not solely dependent on biotin deficiency? Have you ever tried dealing with that and seeing if it helps to tip the scales?

Since biotin prevents the yeast from turning into the fungal form (the dangerous one) wouldn't that be a decent option for a nursing mother? It would stop the cycle and allow for the implementation of healthy flora without having to use a drug. Oleic acid does the same, so olive oil supplementation would help as well.
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#152 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 10:50 AM
 
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Hi Calm,

Thanks for the info. I had heard about the OoO being suppressive to breastmilk so taht's out for me, although I might give it to my daughter.

I read the post about the "problem" with Threelac introducing a bad bacteria. I was wondering if you'd read that information and what you thought about it? Also, on the enzymestuff website she recommends an enzyme taken along with a yeast killer. I was wondering what your thoughts on that are? Finally, is OoO ok for a 1 yr old?

Thanks,

Carren

ETA: Will babe experience die off through me & him? Sort of a double whammy?

Mom to DMI & Silly Apple
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#153 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
er.

I read the post about the "problem" with Threelac introducing a bad bacteria. I was wondering if you'd read that information and what you thought about it? Also, on the enzymestuff website she recommends an enzyme taken along with a yeast killer. I was wondering what your thoughts on that are? Finally, is OoO ok for a 1 yr old?

Thanks,

Carren

ETA: Will babe experience die off through me & him? Sort of a double whammy?
Oh yes the baby will!!! I highly recommend the enzymes along with the yeast killing regimen.

Can you quote the post about threelac and the "bad bacteria?" From what I know about it it's not a bad bacteria, it's just not normally found in the human gut so it won't colonize. Essentially once you stop taking it it's gone and you need to follow up with some other strains. Very effective stuff though. I'm wondering if I missed something....
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#154 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 11:26 AM
 
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MotherWren,
I will look it up for you. It was a one time thing a long time ago and I couldn't begin to tell you. I do have it written in my book from that year. As soon as I can I will look it up.
Oh thank you! Sorry didn't mean to make you work

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#155 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 11:38 AM
 
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Can you quote the post about threelac and the "bad bacteria?" From what I know about it it's not a bad bacteria, it's just not normally found in the human gut so it won't colonize. Essentially once you stop taking it it's gone and you need to follow up with some other strains. Very effective stuff though. I'm wondering if I missed something....
This post wasn't addressed to me but I actually stopped taking Threelac when I was nursing because I just couldn't get 100% comfortable with it due to some things that I had read. This article has some of the "bad bacteria" info, if you scroll about half way down. Here's a quote from the article:
Quote:
The problem bacteria seems to be enterococcus faecalis and it is enough of a concern that the Australian Department of Health and Aging has labeled it a serious health hazard in Australia.
Basically the findings said this: Members of the meeting noted that a consultant (Natren) noted that this bacteria was not of low risk, due to its implication in transfer of antibiotic resistance in a hospital context. "Natren said that bacillus coagulans or lactobacillis sporogenes, bacillus laterosporus, enterococcus faecalis, and enterococcus faecium should not be permitted in therapeutic goods on safety grounds. Natren claims that E faecium and E faecalis are able to aquire antibiotic resistance and is a common opportunitistic pathogen in U.S. hospitals."
Natren was asked to provide scientific evidence to prove what they said but it appears they never did. The Australian government has issued health warnings concerning enterococcus faecalis, and enterococcus faecium. Since that meeting in 1998 the Australian Department of Health and Aging has approved new drugs in 2005 to combat infections caused by enterococcus faecalis. The Canadian government has listed enterococcus faecalis as a health hazard and infectious agent. They claim enterococcus faecalis is responsible for 9% of bacteremia infections, 16% of urinary tact infections, and 5 to 15% of bacterial endocarditis infections.
Here's a research article on Enterococcus faecalis. I am not great with dissecting research myself, but thought it might be of interest...

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#156 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 12:06 PM
 
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Huh...I bet that's why they intro'd the oxygen....sadly though they aren't recommending that they ONLY be used together...

I have to dig more on this.
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#157 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 01:06 PM
 
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Thanks Motherwren for digging up the citation.

So you think the threelac should be used only WITH the oxygen? What exactly is the oxygen? Who sells it?

Mom to DMI & Silly Apple
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#158 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 01:13 PM
 
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they sell it, and it's relatively new. If you go to buy threelac often it will pop up as a "package." They don't say that you should use them together for safety reasons. They push it as another product but that's about it.
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#159 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 01:32 PM
 
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hi girls, i have been lurking on this thread, unable to grab a minute to identify myself but i've been hanging around this subforum for months now.
i have an 11 month old daughter with sensitivities through my bm to so many foods it's out of control. i now am limited to some veggies, some fruits, evoo, salt, pumpkin seeds and walnuts. she only eats bm, sweet potatoes, prunes and bananas. she was a c-sect, 1 dose of broad spectrum abx to me after the cord was clamped. we had blood incompatibility and i had 2 doses of rhogam, 1 before and 1 after birth. i also took bc pills for years and was off them a year before conceiving. dd had, unfortunately, vaccines through 6 mos on dr sears schedule.

i take:
pure encapsulations: multi, ca/mag, coq10, l-glutamine, ( i was taking quercetin but it's derived from legumes so i stopped)

digest gold during meals, i just ordered enzymedical virastop for between meals http://www.enzymedica.com/products/Virastop

i take 2 tsp kirkmans cow milk colostrum, casein free per day
http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...4_Spec804.html

i take 2 caps kirkmans lactobaccillus duo http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...llusduo90.html

i take twin labs clo, mint

dd gets a smidge of the probiotics right now, we're trying to work up since we've had a rough go in the past trying probiotics with her.

dd started gastrocrom 2+ weeks ago. we are sending both our urines for oat and both stools for yeast/parasites.

she gets epsom baths daily.

i am still having random, idiotic (i mean idiopathic) body rashes. dd and i seem to be over our random hives ( i also had angioedema , dd never did thank god) coming almost daily. she is not reacting to anything right now ( fingers crossed smiley) but her very mild reflux has progressed to pretty painful sounding and causing crying in her sleep. i dont want to treat it, because i've read so much about the harm we cause ourselves by treating acid reflux which winds up exacerbating the problem. let me know if you know differently, please! she seems to be more sensitive gradually with no end in sight.

i dont want to derail, but can anyone elaborate on the comment early on about l-glutamine being unsafe? i cant find info on that at all.
also, can anyone speak to the biotin question by firefaery? i would like to know more about biotin....

this is a great thread, greetings all. thank you for any insight you have to offer.
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#160 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 01:44 PM
 
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L glutamine is an excitotoxin, and can cause restlessness but I do not personally feel that it is unsafe.

I agree with you on the reflux meds, have you tried any structural work to help with the reflux? If the diaphragm has gotten torqued due to the reflux then it's a vicious cycle. It can take very consistent work until the allergens are removed for her body to hold an adjustment. However it should minimize the severity of the reflux.

Structural things are also something to consider in the midst of the yeast killing. I said on the other thread that while it is possible to have yeast independent of anything else, it is rare. It is very important to treat the whole picture....and certain structural issues like tongue tie which is WILDLY underdiagnosed and leads almost inevitably to yeast overgrowth and food allergies should be looked at as well.

Yeast almost never occurs in isolation.
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#161 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
Another question: what about the fact that a candida infection is at least partially if not solely dependent on biotin deficiency? Have you ever tried dealing with that and seeing if it helps to tip the scales?

Since biotin prevents the yeast from turning into the fungal form (the dangerous one) wouldn't that be a decent option for a nursing mother? It would stop the cycle and allow for the implementation of healthy flora without having to use a drug. Oleic acid does the same, so olive oil supplementation would help as well.
I would love to hear more about this. I'm not having good luck with any yeast killers so far.... so using a drug-free remedy would be great. What is biotin found in? Or is it a supplement too?

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#162 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 02:04 PM
 
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It's a B vitamin-B-7 I believe. It is found in many foods, but for yeasty issues you'd take it as a supplement.
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#163 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 02:24 PM
 
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thanks for the info on l-glut, sorry i posted on the wrong thread kinda. i have them both open on my laptop and keep following them. im gonna cross post my saga, i hope that's ok! i guess they are both headed in the same direction anyway.
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#164 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 02:47 PM
 
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You know, I used to supplement with Biotin - because of my son's very mild case of cradle cap in the early months. I had done some research online and when I started to take Biotin the cradlecap went away.

It actually came back again and I had been wondering about it. It's not oozing or anything, it's just "there".

Back then I didn't know that it could be related to yeast. Now I am putting some pieces together and it seems that Biotin could indeed have a good effect in 'treating' yeast overgrowth.

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Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
Another question: what about the fact that a candida infection is at least partially if not solely dependent on biotin deficiency? Have you ever tried dealing with that and seeing if it helps to tip the scales?

Since biotin prevents the yeast from turning into the fungal form (the dangerous one) wouldn't that be a decent option for a nursing mother? It would stop the cycle and allow for the implementation of healthy flora without having to use a drug. Oleic acid does the same, so olive oil supplementation would help as well.
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#165 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 03:05 PM
 
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thanks for the info on l-glut, sorry i posted on the wrong thread kinda. i have them both open on my laptop and keep following them. im gonna cross post my saga, i hope that's ok! i guess they are both headed in the same direction anyway.
I'm right there with you. I've got this thread, the "Healing the Gut" thread, and the "Yeast is your friend..." thread that I'm watching, and I've posted in all three. It gets confusing!

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You know, I used to supplement with Biotin - because of my son's very mild case of cradle cap in the early months. I had done some research online and when I started to take Biotin the cradlecap went away.

It actually came back again and I had been wondering about it. It's not oozing or anything, it's just "there".

Back then I didn't know that it could be related to yeast. Now I am putting some pieces together and it seems that Biotin could indeed have a good effect in 'treating' yeast overgrowth.
That is really interesting. Maybe I will see if there are any safe supplements for me to try.

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#166 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 04:47 PM
 
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yeah, the healing the gut tribe was the one i meant to post on but i guess we pertain to this thread too since we were c-sectioned
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#167 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 05:35 PM
 
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yes, I have posted MANY times about cradle cap being helped with biotin....mostly people just think that I'm crazy. Sometimes they even go out of their way to tell me that it isn't the case....really though cradle cap IS related to yeast and is also a biotin deficiency as they are very interconnected.
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yes, I have posted MANY times about cradle cap being helped with biotin....mostly people just think that I'm crazy. Sometimes they even go out of their way to tell me that it isn't the case....really though cradle cap IS related to yeast and is also a biotin deficiency as they are very interconnected.
Here is info on food sources of biotin. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=42 (it references cradle cap as an indication of needing more biotin.)

Excellent sources of biotin include chard, tomatoes, romaine lettuce, and carrots. Very good sources include almonds, chicken eggs, onions, cabbage, cucumber, and cauliflower. Good sources includes goat's milk, cow's milk, raspberries, strawberries, halibut, oats, and walnuts.



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Here is info on food sources of biotin. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=42 (it references cradle cap as an indication of needing more biotin.)

Excellent sources of biotin include chard, tomatoes, romaine lettuce, and carrots. Very good sources include almonds, chicken eggs, onions, cabbage, cucumber, and cauliflower. Good sources includes goat's milk, cow's milk, raspberries, strawberries, halibut, oats, and walnuts.



Pat
Thanks for posting that. Wouldn't you know... DD is allergic to almost every single one of those foods. But I think she's ok with me eating cabbage and cauliflower. Maybe I will have to move those up the list of things to trial asap.

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#170 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 08:37 PM
 
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My personal stance on this is if you are already messing with a deficiency (evidenced by cradle cap, yeast overgrowth and hte like) while it's admirable to include foods that contain the needed nutrients you may need to level the playing field with supplementation for the time being. Of course, you need to go with what makes you comfortable...but that's my 2 cents. Once you correct the deficiency then aim for food as being your source. Again, YMMV.
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My personal stance on this is if you are already messing with a deficiency (evidenced by cradle cap, yeast overgrowth and hte like) while it's admirable to include foods that contain the needed nutrients you may need to level the playing field with supplementation for the time being. Of course, you need to go with what makes you comfortable...but that's my 2 cents. Once you correct the deficiency then aim for food as being your source. Again, YMMV.
I agree that's probably true... but I honestly haven't found one supplement yet that DD doesn't react to. Everything either contains, or is derived from, or is grown on one of our major ones, like dairy, soy, or corn.

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#172 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 09:06 PM
 
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try Cardiovascular Research Ltd. No corn, soy, wheat, yeast or dairy. the supplement (IIRC) is megabiotin-though admittedly I may be crossing brands. That would be a good choice for you though, assuming it does exist.
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#173 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 09:07 PM
 
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http://www.amazon.com/Cardiovascular.../dp/B00014DZ70

hmmmm, they took dairy off the label, but I'm pretty certain it's dairy free. I'd contact them to be certain.
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#174 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 09:09 PM
 
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I agree that's probably true... but I honestly haven't found one supplement yet that DD doesn't react to. Everything either contains, or is derived from, or is grown on one of our major ones, like dairy, soy, or corn.
Have you ever tried Country Life brand? I use their biotin for both DS and myself, and it appears to be pretty hypoallergenic. Just throwing it out there in case you want to investigate it as a possibility.
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#175 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 09:41 PM
 
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yes, I have posted MANY times about cradle cap being helped with biotin....mostly people just think that I'm crazy. Sometimes they even go out of their way to tell me that it isn't the case....really though cradle cap IS related to yeast and is also a biotin deficiency as they are very interconnected.
i'm so excited to give biotin a try..dd has had cc since birth
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#176 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 09:54 PM
 
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That's exactly what I was thinking, too...

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Wouldn't you know... DD is allergic to almost every single one of those foods.
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#177 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This post wasn't addressed to me but I actually stopped taking Threelac when I was nursing because I just couldn't get 100% comfortable with it due to some things that I had read. This article has some of the "bad bacteria" info, if you scroll about half way down. Here's a quote from the article:


Here's a research article on Enterococcus faecalis. I am not great with dissecting research myself, but thought it might be of interest...
This is a relevant concern.
I have to point out, even though it is irrelevant to the current issue, that some info from their site is totally false, and makes me wonder if they are worth their salt at all, such as:
Quote:
Because these bacteria are also lactic acid producing they raise the ph of the intestine. Ph is very important because good bacteria prefer an environment that is more alkaline and the oxygen it produces. These good bacteria keep yeast under control.

The small intestine is supposed to be slightly alkaline and the large intestine is a neutral ph around 7.0.
http://www.yeastinfectionadvisor.com...lacreview.html
When you make something more acidic, you LOWER the pH, not raise it. Good bacteria like the ACID environment, bad guys like alkaline – in general. So the lactic acid production is a GOOD thing. The large intestine varies in pH, from acidic to neutral.

There are a few things to note about E Faecalis. The focus on the reaction to it here in Australia has been blown out of proportion. It is allowed as a probiotic, starter culture, in the Aust. Quarantine list.

It is also part of the normal human gut flora, in the upper (alkaline) part of the digestive system. It's about balance, as always, adding more of what one has lost in favor of yeast.

The Naked Scientists have a great forum and always have interesting reading that isn't from just your average Joe Bloggs. This is from an article on how the gut becomes colonised from birth and info on probiotics etc.
The Naked Scientists:
Quote:
The main bacterial residents at the relatively acidic top end of the small intestine are Lactobacillus and Enterococcus faecalis. Towards the bottom of this section, where the living conditions are less arduous, less acidic, and more appealing to a wider section of the bacterial community, Lactobacillus and E.faecalis are joined by other bugs such as E. coli, and Bacteroides.
(note, the acidic top end of the small intestine is the duodenum, which comes straight from the stomach so hasn't gone alkaline yet, just for the pedantic reader )

E Faecalis is part of the normal furnishings in a newborn gut and has beneficial uses (depending on the strain):


Enterococcus faecalis from newborn babies regulate endogenous PPARγ activity and IL-10 levels in colonic epithelial cells

Quote:
Here, we show that in colonic cell lines and in primary colonic cells, Enterococcus faecalis isolated from newborn babies possess the ability to regulate peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-γ1 (PPARγ1) activity through phosphorylation. This results in elevated DNA binding and transcriptional activation of downstream target genes, including IL-10, a cytokine known to modulate innate immune function...

The colonization of the human gastrointestinal tract by microbes occurs almost immediately after birth. Here we demonstrate that a strain of E. faecalis (denoted as EC16), transferred from mother to child, can regulate and activate the transcription factor PPARγ1 in colonic cell lines as well as mouse primary colonic epithelial cells. This study reinforces the growing notion that microbiota contribute to mechanisms of homeostasis closely connected to postnatal endocrinological processes (reviewed in ref. 21)...

Selective species of E. faecalis have been shown to antagonize diarrhea induced by E. coli K88 through unknown mechanisms (32), but it is conceivable that not all strains of E. faecalis will have beneficial effects
What all that means in English is that it is a normal part of even a newborn gut, and is doing good things for immunity and development, including reducing the diarrhea that can occur from E Coli, and that it keeps things in balance. "Colonic epithelial cells" is referring to the colon wall.

Now, having said all that, it is a good opportunity to mention something about probiotics, not limited to E Faecalis. And that is they all risk muting the immune response to them, sort of like “antibiotic resistance”. They are bacteria, after all. We have E Coli and a whole host of pretty nasty microorganisms residing normally in our gut. It isn't the organism that is the problem, it is when it gets away from the immune system, or when it overgrows. All of them have the potential to do that.

I don't know if I've made anyone feel better or worse about probiotics with this .

Really, the key word is balance. Making sure you eat, breathe and in other ways consume as many strains of the good guys as you can, and less of bad guys (eg, moldy bathrooms, infected water sources...). Cleansing, keeping the immune system up to speed and cleaning house thoroughly if ever you take or do something that knocks that out of balance. Like I've mentioned though, just the way Westerners eat and live can knock that in favor of yeast, that's why we treat it and not bacteria unless we have reason to treat bacteria.

Re biotin, I agree with FF about supps. I supplement with 1000mcg a day, I'd be hard pressed to eat enough of anything to reach that amount. I may not have stuck to it long enough for it to affect ds's itchy scalp dermatitis/cradle cap before I started yeast treatment on it, but I didn't notice a difference. I had to use an anti dandruff shampoo as first front line, he was pretty messed up and nothing else was working fast enough to give him relief. But maybe I should have waited longer. Patience isn't my strongest virtue.

Biotin is produced by good bacteria, it is one of their jobs. That's why a yeast overgrowth favors the knock out of biotin so heavily – as FF said, biotin helps prevent it going fungal, and yeast overgrowth lessens the amount of bacteria there is to produce biotin, as that is the natural source of it, even though it is found in food. I supplement for DS's scalp, but also because that and B12 and many other things are affected with their is a poor bacteria/yeast ratio.

Regarding metals, Fire, I will need another post for that as the subject deserves more attention.

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#178 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 10:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotherWren View Post


Here's a research article on Enterococcus faecalis.
Here is another: http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

I couldn't understand the first study.

Basically, the second one says that generically the enterococci bacteria have benefits as "probiotics" due to their ability to survive the GI system and *adhere* to the gut wall, displacing some other ("bad") microbials. The concern is that some enterococci bacteria are pathogenic and have developed multi-drug resistance. This study indicates some specific enterococci which are sensitive to vancomycin. The concern is that the enterococci bacteria are able to genetically alter and perhaps develop drug resistance.

Beneficial bifudus bacteria also are able to *adhere* to the gut wall for an extended period of time, absent daily recolonization. These bacteria are considered "safe" and are MOST important to recolonization.

Here is an interesting study which dissects the microbials in a specific traditionally made cheese. Interestingly, it has both Enterococcus faecalis and Enterococcus faecium. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

However, this article indicates: E. faecium should not be confused with the pathogenic strain called Enterococcus faecalis. Although often used synonymously, preliminary studies have shown that E. faecalis has virulent factors while E. faecium does not. E. faecalis is found mainly in animals other than humans, but it can be found in humans as a pathogen.
http://www.innvista.com/HEALTH/nutri...cs/proborg.htm



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#179 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 10:41 PM
 
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This is an interesting "Probiotics 101" and more: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/.../msg00269.html

B. bifidum is the most beneficial form of lactic acid and acetic acid
production. It has the ability to:

*Digest lactose
*Ferment indigestible fibers, thereby producing more energy
*Synthesize some vitamins, especially several of the B vitamins
*Assist in mineral absorption, especially iron, calcium, magnesium, and
zinc
*Inhibit the growth of Salmonella, Bacillus cereus, Staphylococcus
aureus, Candida albicans, Campylobacter jejuni, Listeria, Shigella, E.
coli and Clostridium by crowding them out and eating the nutrients
they need
*Fight bad bacteria by lowering the intestinal pH through its
production of fatty acids, lactic acid, and acetic acid
*Absorb large quantities of ferrous ions, thereby inhibiting the growth
of bad bacteria that use it for food
*Help decompose nitrosamines (cancer-causing substances) and suppress
the production of nitrosamines in the intestines
*Help lower serum cholesterol



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#180 of 1043 Old 09-12-2008, 11:01 PM
 
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I have been meaning to post an update, but keep getting caught up in reading and then run out of time to post! This is the best discussion I have seen anywhere on this subject!

I posted a while back on my issues, but in a nutshell it is leaky gut/Candida that has caused (IMO) my autoimmune problems and food intolerances. After the last C/S (3rd) and all the crap that went with it (steroid shots, antibiotics galore and infection) I really went downhill fast.

The diet (currently on BED) changes helped, but then I knew I had to do more. I started the Nystatin over a week ago and then added in Threelac about 4 days ago. Every time I have added or changed something I have die off. It does not seem to affect the baby too much that I can tell.

I also take VRP Kandidaplex, Biotin (5000mcg from ARG), adrenal fatigue supplements (mostly B vitamins, yeast free), milk thistle, quercetin, coq10, coenzyme A, systemic enzymes (bromelain, serrapep, Candex) and a Houston's No-Fenol along with the Nystatin. I also started drinking the Coconut Kefir today.

It seems like a lot to do while nursing a baby, but he is 17 months old and probably needs some of this anyway. I am considering treating him more directly, although he doesn't really show any yeast symptoms. Now that doesn't mean much to me, since I never really showed any through the years either. I know that I have had Candida for many years. It is because of this very thread that I am realizing just how I really HAVE had it for years.

I don't know what it is going to take to get rid or it or bring myself back into balance, but I hope that I can at least get back to pre-autoimmune.

I know Diflucan is hard on the liver, but I am considering using it to rotate with Nystatin. It would be to address more of the systemic yeast and I do take milk thistle, so maybe that will help some. I have a Rx for it, so easy enough on that part. Just not sure how long to take it for and also concerned about how much gets into the milk. My 17 month old is a frequent nurser, especially at night.

Any thoughts on this?

Jane
:yawning: :Mama to Erik (11) ASD:, Severe Dyslexia, Julie (8) asthma, eczema and Christopher 17 mo NT so far and unvaccinated :
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