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Grown man, no kids. No idea what the etiquette is :-(

2K views 16 replies 13 participants last post by  MilaMar 
#1 ·
I've just posted a long reply to an old thread but maybe I'm better starting a new one...

What if the toddler asks to sit on a man's lap? I don't have kids so don't know the rules! I'll explain...

I went camping alone and on the first night met 3 couples and their kids, everyone was friendly and they made me hot dogs etc.

The following day a toddler and his sister came over to my tent (about 20/30 meters away, the mum knew they were with me after thinking she'd lost them, I called out to say they were ok) and sat and chatted and the boy started climbing my knees while I was in my chair. His sister said "he wants to sit on your lap" so....I let him. Why wouldn't I? I'm not a nasty man!

A few minutes later 2 brothers came over, a bit older and asked if they could go in my tent. I said "it's very boring but if you want" again, why wouldn't I? I'd say the same to any other human on the planet! The tent door was open. It was daylight 10 am!

One of the dad's came over and said they needed to go with him, at the time I thought he was getting them out of my hair but I've since been called a predator and a pedo.

It's really messed with my head. So I just say no to kids asking things like that? That's not who I am and I don't want to change being a caring person because of what others think. If I say ask your parents it could sound like I've asked if they can.

I think the parents shouldn't have let the kids come sit with me or at least told their kids not to ask "strangers" such questions (I say strangers as I'd only met the people the day before)
 
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#2 ·
You're an adult. You're supposed to have some independent sense of appropriate boundaries with children.

Appropriate boundaries aren't always simple. The same action can be required of a parent, okay in family and friends, and outright skeevy in chance-met strangers. In this situation, you are a chance-met stranger, and while your intentions may have been benign, you exercised terrible judgment about boundaries. That makes you a bad risk for parents. They don't want you to hang around, they've said (bluntly) what you're behavior made them worry about, and you will not win these parents back. In fact, you'd make it worse by trying.

I would not let a stranger's child sit in my lap. If children showed up in my campsite, and their parents seemed to think they were lost, I wouldn't just call over, I would walk the kids back to their parents. If a child asked to climb up or tried to climb up, I would have a reason ready. "We've only just met," is fine. So is "I have to work on X", "It's nice of you to visit, but I'd like to read my book," "Your mom seems worried about you. Let's get you back to her."

Letting random kids from the campsite poke through your tent was going to ring a lot of alarm bells. Would you let the neighbor kids at home sift through the belongings in your bedroom? (If so, cut that out immediately.) "Oh no, thanks. The tent flap is open to keep things from getting too hot, but people's tents are private."

These things aren't "being uncaring." They are the opposite. They're demonstrating to children what safe and responsible boundaries look like.
 
#5 · (Edited)
You're an adult. You're supposed to have some independent sense of appropriate boundaries with children.

Appropriate boundaries aren't always simple. The same action can be required of a parent, okay in family and friends, and outright skeevy in chance-met strangers. In this situation, you are a chance-met stranger, and while your intentions may have been benign, you exercised terrible judgment about boundaries. That makes you a bad risk for parents. They don't want you to hang around, they've said (bluntly) what you're behavior made them worry about, and you will not win these parents back. In fact, you'd make it worse by trying.

I would not let a stranger's child sit in my lap. If children showed up in my campsite, and their parents seemed to think they were lost, I wouldn't just call over, I would walk the kids back to their parents. If a child asked to climb up or tried to climb up, I would have a reason ready. "We've only just met," is fine. So is "I have to work on X", "It's nice of you to visit, but I'd like to read my book," "Your mom seems worried about you. Let's get you back to her."

Letting random kids from the campsite poke through your tent was going to ring a lot of alarm bells. Would you let the neighbor kids at home sift through the belongings in your bedroom? (If so, cut that out immediately.) "Oh no, thanks. The tent flap is open to keep things from getting too hot, but people's tents are private."

These things aren't "being uncaring." They are the opposite. They're demonstrating to children what safe and responsible boundaries look like.
You've made a few assumptions here, just like the other small minded people involved.

1. It wasn't the parents that accused me. It was another random person.

2. They weren't sifting through my items, they just sat in the doorway.

3. They weren't random, I knew their names and their parents names

4. We were all in the same camp site, they were a few pitches across from me.

5. You can't compare a tent to a house. Granted, I didn't say how small the tent was (I was camping alone, 3 man single dome tent) but a house is so different. It has rooms and cupboards you cannot see from the doorway.

STOP reading things that aren't there!! You're letting your brainwashed mind get the better of you.

If I have kids they can talk to anyone I talk to and interact the way kids do. I'd rather my kids communicated and interacted with as many people as possible instead of cutting them off just because of fear induced by the media.
 
#3 ·
The thing is people are not mind readers. They can't scan your brain and say oh yes he's a decent guy. You are a stranger, your intentions are unknown to them. Fact is pedophiles often do what is known as 'grooming'. If you haven't heard of the term before basically it means they appear to be really nice people, generous and great with kids. They gain a child's or even the parents trust before doing something really hideous to the children. No I would not allow a strangers child to sit on my lap or go through my tent. If the child is very young and is climbing on you, ask the parent if that is okay. The other point for saying no to the kids is parents often try to install in their kids what is safe and unsafe to do. Going into a strangers tent is not safe, just like getting into their car isn't safe. By telling them no nicely and informing the parents you are helping both the kids and the parents. The parents can then take the child aside and explain how we don't go into other peoples tents. It's bad manners for one and could be dangerous. being a decent guy you want these children to be safe because if you show them it's okay to do and they do it to the wrong person, then something could happen to them. Be friendly but understand why the boundary is there.
 
#4 · (Edited)
1. What parents need to understand is I am not a mind reader. Just because im an adult doesn't mean I know the boundaries. I have had very little to do with children, no nephews or nieces, no friends with kids. They don't give us a rule book! Why should I be expected to know this when parents could just keep their children nearby?

2. The media has you convinced there is a male predator around every corner. No wonder kids struggle to communicate with men. Their lives are filled with women. I feel if I had been female it would have been different. It's not right that I should be made to feel like this because some parents haven't taught there kids manners. Keep them on a leach? Would a pet dog be allowed in my tent or do dog owners worry about bestiality in the same way?

3. Thanks for the advice but I don't think I'm going to change who I am to suit paranoid parents. They can change or they can change their kids. I've broken no laws, I've done nothing wrong but be polite and friendly! Maybe I'll just avoid kids all together in future....What a wonderful world we live in where kids will one day never meet men. They'll think all men are monsters. Shame on you.

4. Why would I walk them back when the mother realised where they were!? She can either collect them or leave them with me (she left them with me) it's not my job as a non breeder to do the parent thing! If a kind man is that much of a threat surely the parent would jump in at that point?

Thinking about it, this group IS called mothering...What about fathering? Seems very one sided and the first woman to respond was very quick to make assumptions and I'm pretty sure she thinks we all have an in built manual for how to deal with kids. The second response seemed to come from a regular human being, so thanks for that :)

I'm going to add a note about the saintly parents. When they first invited me to sit with them they were sat with the kids behind a car, engine running, next to the exhaust! One kid came straight over with a yogurt pot with liquid and bits in and put the spoon in my face expecting me to "eat"it. I looked at one of the dad's and made it clear I didn't want to (I didn't know what it was!) He said something like "looks like you gotta eat it" I pretended to, turned out it was water and carrots...could have been anything though. I think that's two examples of bad parenting right there....am I wrong?
 
#6 · (Edited)
There is, in fact, a sexual predator right around the corner, per my county's sex offender registration system. I can't afford to walk around assuming that everyone my children and I meet is a great person, and if they make me uncomfortable, it's probably just that I misunderstand them.

When you start your own multimedia publication, you are welcome to call it whatever you want. This one is mothering.com. There are plenty of men who read it, and the occasional dude in the community, but they don't seem to have the appetite that women do for discussing birth choices and breastfeeding. No one is going to apologize to you for having created a space in which most conversation grows from those topics.

In an attempt to be "nice", you behaved exactly as a predator would. Anyone might do that by accident. However, most people, having had that pointed out to them, would choose to make changes. The fact that you are doubling down and resolving to change nothing suggests that you're actually a pretty awful person.
 
#7 ·
Notamummy, you're right, nothing you described was "wrong" and if you were a woman you would be viewed differently, and the whole thing is incredibly unfair. It really is disturbing how some people view all male "strangers" as predators until proven otherwise.

That being said, figuring out how to maintain some boundaries would reduce your chances of having an uncomfortable encounter with suspicious-minded people or law enforcement. At the very least, keeping kids off your lap (and avoiding hugging and other close physical contact), and keeping them out of your tent, and never being out of sight with kids would be prudent.

And etiquette would also dictate that the parents come over and check whether it's okay with you to have their kids crawling all over your camp site, rather than simply assuming that everybody loves having their kids around.
 
#8 ·
The problem is, as was stated, what you did is also what is done by sexual predator. The difference is the predator then builds on the trust to harm the child. By then it's too late for the child. Harm has occurred. So try looking at it from the parents' perspective. The only way to try to keep their children safe is to treat new acquaintances as possible predators. Is it unfair? To the good guy, yes! To the child, no!

You are being told what the modern rules are. Perhaps they are unfortunate, but necessary. Help the parents teach their children that it takes longer than one meal to decide if someone should be considered a friend.

You said it was not the parents who told you what you did was wrong. Who was it?

Also I think the point about being random was they met you by chance and have no prior history with you. Would you give your wallet with your cash, id and credit cards to someone you had dinner with to hold out of your sight? Isn't a child at least as valuable?
 
#9 ·
I also want to totally leave aside the question of what the parents could or should have done when looking at *your* behavior. Yeah, if it were me, I would not let my kids ramble unsupervised over a stranger's campsite. But those parents haven't shown up to ask what the rules are or how they should behave. You have.
 
#10 ·
Usually I avoid these kind of situation by supervising my babies. They are curious and it is normal that they want to explore. I go where they want to go, I talk to the strangers they want to interact to. I simply think that by seing me socializing they gonna learn how to behave.
Situations like the one you describe already happened to us. Thing is me or my husband we were present and nothing weird..suspicious happened.
On your side it is ok to say:"ask your parents" "you can come back with mom and dad but now i bring you back to your camp"...etc...
 
#11 ·
@Notamummy, I understand why you're upset, and the hostile nature of some of the comments here probably isn't helping. You're absolutely right that the parents should have prevented their kids from invading your campsite if they had a problem with you interacting with their kids. Like you said, it wasn't the kids' parents who made the backward comments, it was someone else... random people will judge you no matter what you do. If you let the child sit on your lap, you're a pedophile, and if you don't, you're an asshole who hates kids. If it was the PARENTS hurling accusations, that would be another story, but it sounds like they didn't have an issue with what happened. So my first bit of advice would be to try to not get too upset at some random stranger who felt the need to say accusatory things--it sounds like it had nothing to do with them, anyway? If I were in your shoes I'd have a few choice words for that person.

As a mom, it's MY job to make sure my kids aren't crawling all over some poor camper who in all likelihood is a decent person who just may not be all that familiar with kiddos. That's not to say that I automatically give strangers the benefit of the doubt, but the fact that you already knew the family and they knew you by name, and that you'd spent some time with them prior, tells me that the parents just weren't concerned about you.

It can indeed be awkward when an infant or toddler wants to climb into your lap and you're not sure what to do. If you know the child, the parents know you, and the parents know you are with the child--I really don't see a problem with this. The fact that you'd spent time with the family the night before changes the situation drastically--it's not as though a random child you'd never seen before tried to crawl into your lap. As I said, if the parents had a problem with you, they should have come to fetch their kids as soon as they wandered over into your campsite. I'd definitely draw the line at allowing them into your tent, though. Clearly, there's a muddy line between "just hanging out in the doorway" and physically being IN the tent, and it's a line you'd probably be better off just avoiding altogether. It's okay to tell a kid "no"--they hear it all the time! Just gently say "no, that's private, please don't go in my tent. But you are welcome to hang out here with me if it's okay with your parents." Even if you don't have a problem with it, it's best to avoid a misunderstanding.

I go camping a LOT and would far prefer a friendly, neighborly-feeling campground to one where everyone keeps to themselves and avoids conversation or eye contact. I always assume my kid is bothering people (particularly childless people) so I would be grateful to have a camper nearby that didn't make me feel like I had to keep my kids on lockdown at all times. Like you said, I don't really want to teach my kids to automatically fear all men, either. You're right that when it comes to kids, men are automatically assumed to be up to no good. And that's not fair. Being kind and welcoming to children is a GOOD thing! It's good that you're asking questions about appropriate boundaries. I completely disagree with the other poster who seems to think that you asking questions about your behavior is somehow a warning sign in itself. You do seem to realize that these kids weren't really "strangers" to you and because of that, your boundaries were a bit different. (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here in that I assume if unfamiliar kids HAD wandered into your campsite, you would have reacted very differently.)

In short--try to let it go. The parents felt comfortable enough with you to not come get their children, or to say anything negative about the interaction. That's all that matters. The comments of some random observer don't mean anything.
 
#12 ·
I would personally be OK with all the things you say, the child sitting on your lap on its own initiative. I would be OK with them checking out your tent if you had given permission for it. I would however not have allowed them to go into the tent with you or walk away with you. I am not scared of people hurting my child. I know it can happen but I don't want to teach them that people are scary or dangerous. Most people are not.
 
#13 ·
You had already made friends with this family and knew their names and they were comfortable enough to let their kids wander over to you for a moment. The dad probably came over to get them because THEY were being typical curious children who don't know boundaries yet, and dad could see that they were getting into your stuff. It's not like you instigated play, got down on their level and asked them to climb on you or go in your tent for crying out loud!

Personally, if I was camping with my kids, and had just met this family and their kids wandered over and climbed in my lap, and then started to ask about going in my tent, I would be uneasy. I would want to make sure the parents knew where their kids were and what they were up to. I would immediately look over at the parents with the "ummmm your kids are over here, can you please look after them" look.

Perhaps nosey neighbor who made the pedo comments thought you should have looked a little more bothered by the situation. You reacted differently than he expected. He needs to realize that someone who doesn't have kids might react differently.

If this happened to me when I was in my 20s before I had kids, I probably would have reacted the same way you did...just let them climb on me and look in my tent until the parents came over to get them.

Now that I am a mom, I know more about boundaries. Sometimes I may have a momentary lapse in judgement, but for the most part it goes like this: Tonight at school orientation, a little girl (7) asked if she could go outside with my daughter and I to see the garden. It would just be a few steps out the glass doors, but I wanted to make sure her dad knew where she was. I know this girl and her mom pretty well, but my gut reaction was "I don't know, ask your dad". She explained that her dad just left but her mom was here to pick her up. She began to follow us to the door and just then her mom walked up with a worried look on her face saying "I don't know, is it lightening out there?" A storm was coming. At that point I realized I made the right decision by not letting her walk outside with us. Perhaps her mom would have not been able to find her, and I know how scary that feels (plus, she didn't want her walking outside in bad weather).
 
#15 ·
It doesn't really matter if you have kids or no experience being around them, you have to look at it from another perspective. How is this mother supposed to know that the kids were just roaming around? All they know is that they turned the corner and saw a stranger with their child on their lap and two kids in their tent. Not saying that you're automatically a creep, but out of context, what are you supposed to think? It's one thing to have them in your camp and they're all hanging out, but this looks like you had were inviting to stay for awhile. And you getting defensive just doesn't help the matter. People just fear what they don't know, and being snappy about it doesn't help anything.
 
#16 ·
You don't know the kid, you don't pick up the kid. Period. I'm a mom and I don't pick up other people's kids without their permission.

Next time, try "sorry kiddo, go ask your mommy".

Heck, I was once 14 and had an 8 year old climb into my lap out of nowhere at a small concert where I was sitting on the floor and I made absolutely certain my hands didn't touch anything but her arms.
 
#17 ·
Yikes! I'm sure you meant well, but if I this happened with my kids I would be alarmed too. If anything it might have nothing to do with you, but the fact that the dad just realized his kid thought it was perfectly ok to go into a stranger's tent. That's a scary moment for any parent for sure (aka if he'll wander into a tent, he'll also probably get in a strange van, come inside a neighbor's house, etc.)

If a situation like this happens again, best to tell the child "go ask your mom and dad first!" or better yet, walk them over yourself, introduce yourself, and say you're happy to show the kids around your campsite if they're curious.
 
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