Help! Talk me into our out of this pup. - Mothering Forums
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 01:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Joanna, lil rockstar, Roarks owner (sorry, your name is totally escaping me..but I remember your dog!) anyone else savvy in the dog world, please post your opinions!

There is this litter....http://www.precisionshepherds.com/upcoming.htm coming up, I'm interested in the first combo and the last combo. Ideally, in my perfect world the stud from the first litter would be matched with the bitch from the last litter. The pedigrees go better together.

So, the "problems"

-the breeder, I think he's not as experienced as his finances allow him to look. I've met with him a few times and 2 things come to mind, 1) he doesn't know what he's actually GOT--the male from the first combo is AMAZING, but he doesnt' have the experience to get the most out of this dog. 2) he's arrogant and thinks that if it's imported it's "better", thing is, first off, Germany (especially West Germany) does not send us their best stuff...it's just not the way it works and he's not going to germany to pick up the good dogs--he is however relying on an importer that I do trust. What he doesn't get it is even if you imported the bitch pregnant....once she welps here in Canada, all her get are "Canadian" dogs, kwim?

-my current situation in life, we are ttc a second baby, it will be a VERY high risk pregnancy should it happen and we're looking at a year before I'm able to do any serious training. Havoc is old and I don't want to bring a MALE pup in at his age as between a pup and Bedlam, Havoc will most certainly be completely overthrown (possible solution to this problem in the pros column) Even at that year point though, I'd have a young babe and a toddler--is this even possible?

-his bloodlines would basically be an outcross for our lines...but they would bring in the exact thing we're looking for (so this is a pro and a con.)

Pros

-on paper, this dog is the one I want. It's not the ultimate working dog--but that we already have and we need something to tone it down without turning it wimpy. The pedigree is awesome--especially if he'd do the breeding I think he should do (but this is where the arrogance comes in, myself and 5 other "oldtimers" I've talked to about this combo have said the same thing--why the hell didn't he take stud #1 to bitch #3??)

-because of money, he's been in a position where if a dog washed even in a minor way he can afford to actually wash the dog out of his breeding program

-with these lines we can refine the east german "blockiness" to provide a dog more pleasing to the eye. We can also tone down a bit of the drive--because while the big time competitor wants that, it's such an incredibly small population that can handle that kind of dog.

-beautiful black and red colouring, we have not produced a black and tan in YEARS. While I love solid blacks and sables....nothing beats a GOOD black and tan

-Sheena has agreed to take on the pup for the first 18 mos and raise as a kennel dog--ideal for a potential working dog and would free me up from the whole high energy, nutbar dog during a pregnancy phase.

-I desparately want to get back into trialing

-if this dog washes out, we'd still have Havoc's sperm to use and if this dog is wonerful, we could choice breed him to a bitch and then keep a bitch back to later breed with Havoc's frozen semen.

Part of me wants to leave a deposit, part of me thinks I'm nuts. Be honest with me and let me know what you think.
shannon0218 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 01:54 AM
 
Mama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UT
Posts: 474
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Putting the great lines aside.....Adding a new baby with a high pregnancy risk would to me signal not a good idea for this time. I train my dogs for obedience trials and durring the last part of pregnancy and after the baby comes for a good year and half the dogs suffer.
IOP I definately think you should get another dog. Maybe from this breeder at a later time. Especially if you can get him to do the breeding you want
Mama8 is offline  
#3 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 01:58 AM
 
Irishmommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with heartmama
Posts: 45,396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Can you persuade him to maybe next year, breed the dogs you think he should, and then buy one of those pups?
Irishmommy is offline  
 
#4 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 03:13 AM
 
heartmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with Irishmommy
Posts: 5,982
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, first off, I wish you wonderful results ttc! I think we are in the same boat (ttc after loss's and facing high risk pregnancy even if it works).

When I was pregnant last year, and started having problems, I had no mental space for the animals at all. Thank God none of them were brand new to us. I had nothing left to give.

I also found I was irritated with the animals once I was on bedrest. It wasn't like me. I had imagined the cats in particular would be nice company, but I found myself shooing them away instead. I think the affection I normally felt for them became painful. It reminded me of the fears I would lose another baby, and I really felt a lot of grief instead of relief having the animals coming over to snuggle and cuddle up and be adorable. That feeling *really* took me by surprise. Between losses and after this last one the animals have been on the receiving end of an inordinate amount of devotion from me. But during that time, I just had nothing emotionally to give. And physically, I couldn't do anything for them even if I wanted too.

It's a question of back up plans. If you get pregnant, what is plan B for the dog? Can someone else step in and take over? Do you have someone whom you could trust to do that?

If you can plan to avoid a doggy disaster in the event you have baby success, then that will permit you to just focus on whether this dog is right for you. If you do not conceive right away, it will be wonderful to know you are moving forward on another issue close to your heart. And if you do succeed with conception, then having a back up plan gives you the freedom to take needed time for yourself without feeling guilty

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
heartmama is offline  
#5 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 04:55 AM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So correct me if I'm wrong--he sends these bitches over to breed and then brings 'em back pregnant? Or is he importing pregnant adult bitches?

With the Havoc situation, would you be willing to get a bitch puppy? Or only a male?

As a dog person, I can't NOT have a dog around the house that's actually doing something. So I'm right with you on the need to have something to fool around with and not just a houseful of pets (and you know that I don't mean I'm belittling pets). I also don't like to plan around theoretical pregnancies--babies, yes, but best laid plans and all that left us trying for three and a half years for Tabitha (after I had gotten pregnant instantly and accidentally with the other two). If I had not shown/bred/bought dogs because I was planning on a pregnancy I would have been chewing my own arm off from the tension and boredom. The dogs were great for giving me someplace to put the frustration.

I am also a major believer in puppies as healers. When Havoc goes to his great and wonderful reward, you're going to need to have someplace to throw yourself. Having a half-grown puppy to teach bitework to will keep you from setting the couch on fire or whatever other crazy thing we do when we lose heart dogs.

I'm not a working person, so it's hard for me to give you advice from that standpoint. For example, I'd always rather take a top bitch from a good litter than a dog; you can go right to Havoc or you can mess around and do two or three other litters and really see how her puppies are growing before you use the sperm. I don't know how well you know the pedigrees, but even when I'm working with dogs I know well I can't really tell what that individual dog or individual bitch is going to give me until after the first litter is a good year old. However, you may need a male because they're better workers--heck if I know.

Having said that, with my totally untrained eye I like the third pairing better. The #1 bitch is just too whippety and she looks short. She could also be crouching, but in that picture she's way too overangulated. No width between the rear legs (I like bitches with big butts!). However, lots of things could change my mind. If bitch #1 is on her fourth litter and her first babies are pretty solid, I'd go with her over a two-year-old bitch #3, for example.

Of course, I can't tell you what to do. I DO know that you're pretty dog-light right now, and you're at least two or three years out from seriously competing even if you got a puppy tomorrow. That's a LONG time. If you wait until after you have baby #2, you're looking at being four or five years out. If you're OK with that, it's sensible to wait--but good grief, it's ALWAYS sensible to wait! We don't do these dog things because we're sensible, we do them because we can't NOT do them. So in the end it's going to depend on where you want to be dog-wise now or where you want to be in a couple of years, not necessarily on how hard/easy it'll be.
thekimballs is offline  
#6 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 05:17 AM
 
Girl In The Fire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canarble Wagon
Posts: 1,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Knowing nothing about GSD's... I dont like the first breeding, those toplines make me cringe and it brings up an image forever burned in my mind of a GSD that used to frequent the dog park whos bits and pieces we inches from the ground as it hobbled through life on its hocks... literally... Whats up with those roach backs anyways, the old GSD book I have from the early 60's none of the dogs in are roached like that?
Girl In The Fire is offline  
#7 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 06:17 AM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
APBTLuv reminded me of an important consideration--I've never seen a pic of Havoc stacked, but if he's got a typical working angulation in the back and you breed him to a German show-type bitch like these are, you're going to have ugly toplines if you're not careful. The German dogs do have a LOT of arch in the loin, especially the first two. The #3 pairing has a more moderate topline, approaching level.
thekimballs is offline  
#8 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 06:26 AM
 
Destinye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't post here too much anymore but I wouldn't because of Havoc and having a toddler and a possible pregnancy and subsequent baby - seems a lot to juggle. We are resisting a GSD ourselves though so understand your quandary. There will be other dogs though so I would ask yourself if the timing is really right. Anyhow thats *my* honest opinion.
Destinye is offline  
#9 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 12:57 PM
 
LittleRockstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: MI
Posts: 969
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm thinking about this and I'll write more later today. I'm swamped this morning, but I will respond. I just passed on a black and red (my old boy is a black and red) out of a breeding that I was extremely interested in. <sigh> I'll try not to be emotional when I respond.

more later...
LittleRockstar is offline  
#10 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 01:57 PM
 
k9rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Looking for a few good goats...
Posts: 1,676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
As you know, I don't know a lick about breeding...so I can't help you there. That said, I definitely like the looks of the 3rd pairing over the 1st because of their angles. It just doesn't seem to me that the overly angled shape would be conducive to working?!

Anyway, I do know what it's like to NEED to do dog stuff. Like Joanna said, I can't have a dog that just exists in my house as a pet....I need to be active in something (or multiple things) with him. I would go nuts otherwise. I absolutely thrive on the challenge and the reward of it.

If I were you and stuck in this quandry I would go for it either with the 3rd pairing or if you can convince the breeder to do the breeding that you like next year (dog 1 to bitch 3). Believe me when I say that I am the BIGGEST planner that you'd ever meet. I plan for everything...much to the chagrin of all that are close to me. However, I have found it is those things that are rarely planned for that affect us the most.

If Sheena can take over for you in the event that you do get pregnant, and you trust her to do the same (or similar) job that you would do, then I don't see why you shouldn't do it.....
k9rider is offline  
#11 of 27 Old 02-08-2007, 04:07 PM
 
Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You know, I get that in real life too. As in "hey you, the one with Roark." I don't mind, but I'm starting to think it's too big of an ego boost for Roark.

I'm really not the person to ask, though. Because I talked myself into dog searching for 2 years, and then purchasing Roark with all my savings, while having no apartment, being in between states in terms of moving, and having no job lined up. And, of course, I couldn't purchase Roark for companion purposes, it HAD to be a working dog. I grew up around it, and can't imagine not being involved, in some way. Somehow, I managed to make it work. I can't tell you how as I'm a little shocked that I managed it myself. But, I did it.

However, I have no children. And wasn't planning on a high risk pregnancy (or any pregnancy). Which, overall, is the biggest potential problem I see here.

I looked at the photos before I read your post, and thought the exact same thing myself - why didn't he breed one to three? The first male looks/seems amazing. As does the third female. So, it's hard to say, for me, which I'd choose based on just that. Do you have to put a deposit on one litter, or can you put one deposit down with the option of choice from two litters? I know generally they don't do that ... but maybe you can swing it.

If you have someone who will keep the dog for 18 months, if you feel like this is the right time, this is the right dog, if it will add more to your life rather than take away ... I say grab the chance. It looks, to me, like the puppies from that male would be worth it.

Of course, I'm also : about GSD's... so maybe my advice is not the best one to take.

First special delivery - April 2010 :
Sailor is offline  
#12 of 27 Old 02-09-2007, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Ok....thanks for the opinions....looks however like we're split down the middle!!

In answer to some questions, if I do get pregnant (and ultimately until Havoc passes away anyway) this pup would be raised up by Sheena in a kennel environment (which while not ideal for family pet, it is ideal for a working dog, it would still get lots of in the house time, but ultimately he would be raised as a working dog) The dog will basically be co-owned by the 2 of us, so no big deal for her to take him on for the first year.

On getting a bitch over a dog, I hate working bitches, HATE, HATE, HATE it. I tend to really only bond strongly with the boys and this dog would be in line for Havoc's throne so to speak. Not to mention that Bedlam *can* be very bitch aggresive--only seems to be with intact GSD bitches, but she's with me because she was getting her butt kicked on a daily basis at the kennel. Bedlam is only 6 or something (honest....I have NO idea how old she is : She was around 2 or 3 I think when Molly was born) so it's not like she'll be leaving soon (unless someone would like a beautiful fangless black sable bitch) So for sure, I am wanting a boy, no doubts or wavering on that.

Havoc does have very much a working angulation--but honestly, the pics on his website are LOUSY stacks and while west german dogs do tend to have a roach back, these dogs are flatter than they appear. If I had to put my finger on what he's doing wrong....he's purchasing dogs already titled in schutzhund, he's not working them himself (however I do know who did work them) and he's trying to make a name for himself in the show dog circuit. He's doing ok with his bitches (SV shows, not CKC) but basically for the most part, with the boys, you will either have a dog that wins the beauty contest or a dog that wins the working portion. Ultimately, even in the european lines there is a huge division between work and show lines, Havoc is very much working lines (but does have his championship under SV judges). We have bred Havoc once to a west german bitch and actually the results were stunning. We then bred Havoc's son Warf to a bitch out of similar breeding to bitch number 3 and unfortunately we sold the entire litter. My friend has one of the boys, a red sable and he is unreal. He still possesses all the working drive he'd need but man, that dog moves like he has wings, he covers an unbelievable amount of ground per stride without being roached or over angulated. Ideally, that is an element we'd like to bring into our breeding program. We don't want to turn our dogs *into* that, but for sure our guys are lacking in refinement.

On how he breeds them, he's importing bitches (and dogs, he has 2 males but I believe 5 bitches-not all living on site though) He has imported a few pregnant bitches over the years but not many--mainly though, he's NOT doing much in the way of second generation or beyond breeding, basically he does not have a "line" that he's developed.

Waiting until next year is possible but it puts me so much further away from a dog of workable age.

I hate that I have to make these decisions, I want someone to dump a perfect little block headed black and red boy on my lap--preferably one that promptly jumped OUT of my lap and started tugging on my pant leg!
shannon0218 is offline  
#13 of 27 Old 02-09-2007, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Ok, so I took a couple of stacked pics of Havoc, anything I had from before I'd need to dig the scanner up from the basement....so please recognize that these particular pics are of me attempting to stack an almost 14 yr old dog who has arthritis in his back and is basically very hard of hearing and was pretty sure everytime I said "STAY" that I was actually saying "please roll in the snow like a big idiot"

They will take a while to upload, we only have dial up out here.
shannon0218 is offline  
#14 of 27 Old 02-09-2007, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Ok, here we go....as you can see, a little refinement in angulation would certainly not be a bad thing.

http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/com...?.dir=/79fdre2
shannon0218 is offline  
#15 of 27 Old 02-09-2007, 06:46 PM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, he still looks so good. I mean, you can tell he's old, but he's freaking sound for being that age. No wasting of the rear at all. What a good boy!

I dunno--I know he "needs" more rear angles, but he's so balanced. The shoulder/upper arm couldn't be a better match to the stifle if you drew it. He's not fashionable, sure, but the first thing that goes in an overangulated dog is the rear. How many 14-year-old show-bred Shepherds do you know? And it's because the rear goes out from under them.

Anyway, I see what you're saying, but I'd take him home any day.
thekimballs is offline  
#16 of 27 Old 02-09-2007, 07:18 PM
 
Shenjall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Canada!
Posts: 3,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I know less than nothing about breeding (as I'm sure you already know )

But something my mom used to say, "where theres a will, theres a way".
If you decide to get the pup, things will have a way of working themselves out regarding having a new babe in the house at the same time.

Thats all I can give - pairings and angles lose me.

Good luck!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Shenjall is offline  
#17 of 27 Old 02-11-2007, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Ok...I'm still thinking on this and yes I'm utterly pathetic. I think it's because I've seen a couple dogs out of his kennel working and I like their style...that and I just MISS working a real dog.

Yes Joanna, he's still very stable in the back end and still very well muscled, that is coming through from the tetley line and it's very dominant. Havoc is 9 generations removed from the original tetley line and that big muscled backside is a trademark of that line and honestly I can pick out a dog from that line before I actually know anything about it. I'm not concerned about loosing that as a result, kwim?
If you go to this site, www.carmspack.com This is our where our foundation line comes from and this is where I bought my first dog Timber from. Carmen is sort of scary the way she knows bloodlines and pedigrees.....like really scarey! If you look at this page, you will see a few of our dogs. http://www.carmspack.com/4_bloodlines/bloodlines.htm The third dog down is Havoc's sire. The solid black dog on the bottom is Havoc at 16 mos old and the dog beside that is my old girl Gyro--she was my severly dysplastic bitch who inspite of bad hips still had that massive muscle in the backside--probably what saved her.
Ok, now go here http://www.carmspack.com/9_links/links.htm The solid black bitch that is the second dog on the page is Kohl, this was what was produced by combining Kilo (a half brother of Havoc) and a west german bitch who was a little more showy than working in nature. That is an 11 mos old bitch so obviously we don't know how she'll turn out totally, but that's what I'd like to see if I can maintain the workability (keep in mind, bitches show more angles especially in west german shepherds) Oh but the first dog on that page....that was my very first purebred dog, that was Carmspack Cry Timber.
shannon0218 is offline  
#18 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 11:45 AM
 
k9rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Looking for a few good goats...
Posts: 1,676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Those are some GORGEOUS dogs! I have always loved black Shepards So what are you thinking about this decision today, Shannon?
k9rider is offline  
#19 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 02:23 PM
 
LittleRockstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: MI
Posts: 969
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Have you made a decision? As much as I would want to get the puppy, I think I would wait if you're going to have a high risk pregnancy soon. I think that just leaves too many unknowns. I firmly believe that you can have the perfect dog - high-drive working monster and companion in one. I think the pregnancy and the timing of it all leave too many unknowns, especially since it's not the EXACT breeding you want (and don't think I wasn't drooling). I would love to go point by point with some of the things you said, but I'm on my third day of a migraine headache and it's winning. I'm typing with my eyes closed. I am obsessing over your dog situation though. It gives me something to think about. I'll try to write more eloquently when I feel human. Unless you've already made a decision. Keep us posted.

Thank you for this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon0218 View Post
I want someone to dump a perfect little block headed black and red boy on my lap--preferably one that promptly jumped OUT of my lap and started tugging on my pant leg!
This is the best daydream I've had in a long time.
LittleRockstar is offline  
#20 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 02:41 PM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Shannon, I've been thinking about you for days! Here's what I think:

This is a little like having two kids really close together--sucks for the first year, fabulous after that. Is the timing right for you to get a puppy effortlessly right now? No. But in five years, even in three years, you're not going to have Havoc and, like it or not, the chance is good that you won't have Lam either. For me, that would be really, really hard. Heck, I don't even like the situation we have now, with only one dog; I function best with multiple dogs around. So the question is, do you wait until that point, THEN get a puppy, then wait two or three years to be working it at the level you want to be working it, or do you get the puppy now, have the more difficult 18 months now, and be a lot closer to where you want to be in three years? I think from my point of view, since Sheena is there to take a lot of the pressure off, I'd do it now.
thekimballs is offline  
#21 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 03:13 PM
 
Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm interested too in the update.

I think you should go for it. And not just because I love GSD puppy photos (which I'm sure you'd share right?)

First special delivery - April 2010 :
Sailor is offline  
#22 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 03:34 PM
 
k9rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Looking for a few good goats...
Posts: 1,676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yep, I'm with the vote to go for it!
k9rider is offline  
#23 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Nope...nothing has been decided yet. However, I haven't seen pics yet, but Carmen (the website I linked to earlier) is in the process of bringing a czech bitch over that she'd ideally like to use Havoc's frozen sperm with. It means doubling up on that czech blockiness and it's unlikely we'd get much refinement from it...but it would be Havoc's direct offspring (which, really, so is bedlam so no guarentees there)
Sheena did mention something to me though that was worth thinking about. She asked me if I get a direct Havoc offspring, will I constantly be comparing that dog to Havoc and will he ever be good "enough". Physically, drive wise yes there's a darn good chance but he'll NEVER be Havoc right. Certainly something to think about and I do think she's probably right too. Any other dog would be one thing but this is my boy, the dog that can do no wrong (cause it couldn't possibly have been him that swiped the thawing prime rib roast off the counter--that was probably Irishmommy's 10 lb terror that did that)

I too am a firm believer that I can have a superior working dog that is still a good family companion, it's more work, but I have that with Havoc. Of course all that said--I've never raised up a working dog with a child in the house so obviously there will be little things that will be different.
I think I'm going to pass probably on this particular pairing. Carmen has some pups coming up too but I don't know the dogs she's breeding other than the sire is Kilo's son and Kilo is closely related to Havoc but is a bi colour so at least we'd have a shot at a black and tan.
shannon0218 is offline  
#24 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 08:06 PM
 
Irishmommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with heartmama
Posts: 45,396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey! That's my baby you are defaming!! (did she enjoy it?)????
Irishmommy is offline  
#25 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 08:14 PM
 
Shenjall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Canada!
Posts: 3,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Whats more of a concern, not the best timing or not the best pairing?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Shenjall is offline  
#26 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
shannon0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Irish, yes she must have loved it, the whole thing was gone in like 5 minutes and somehow she managed to lock herself back in the crate after doing this!!!

What's more problematic, they're both about the same really. The timing if we don't have another baby would be PERFECT right now. The perfect pairing...eh, I can talk myself into just about any pup that has a good pedigree
shannon0218 is offline  
#27 of 27 Old 02-12-2007, 09:21 PM
 
Shenjall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Canada!
Posts: 3,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm of the mindset that theres really no perfect timing for anything.

The fact that you have a support system in place for the first 18 months sounds wonderful if you do get pregnant.

I say, if you're happy with the pairing, go for it!

All the best,
Laura


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Shenjall is offline  
Reply


User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Online Users: 1,113

11 members and 1,102 guests
Bayley Whitley , fljen , K703 , Kolkad , lmaraial57 , megaluv2give , Nelen , omarinbox1888 , RhiannonRain , StephanieCarr , Vinal
Most users ever online was 21,860, 06-22-2018 at 09:45 PM.