Should children just do as they are told ALL THE TIME? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 12:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy View Post
I might jump in and say "leave him alone already! You're just upset because you can't control him" This is a real sore spot with DH because he says I'm undermining his authority ..... which I probably am.
While I totally agree with you that you have to choose your battles and am in a similar situation with my hubby...the fact that you jump in and say something is undermining his authority. Your son will see that you don't agree with each other. This is a discussion to have at a separate time.

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#32 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 01:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mizelenius View Post
Invite your son to dinner. If he doesn't come, LET IT GO. Don't say anything. Enjoy your dinner! When you are going to start cleaning, ask him if he's going to eat, because now is the time (since you will be putting food away-- explain this). Maybe he isn't hungry and won't eat . . .maybe he'll join you then. Either way, he'll learn to eat when he's hungry, he won't see the table as a battleground, and you will have a peaceful meal.
My concern with this is....it isn't an invitation. When dinner is made dinner is to be eaten. I give heads up that dinner will be reading in 30, 15, 10, 5 minutes (to both my son and hubby). Toys, games, work will wait and will be there still when dinner is done. IF we are eating at the table he is expected to be at the table...if he isn't very hungry then he eats only what he can finish (we aren't a clean your plate sort of family). Then he is to sit with us (for at least a few more minutes) then he can ask to be excused to go play. There are also times that he is expected to wait until everyone is done before leaving...patience is a good thing to learn

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#33 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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I have to kind of agree with the guy that posted here that sometimes the mothers logic sound a little far fetched dramatic and untrue. Are you really going to tell me mist kids don't know the difference of who's their friends and family and where their loyalty lies?
And to say that strict parenting is the leading cause of wild teenagers is just wrong. I've seen pot headed parents raising pot headed kids (ditto drunks) and even preachers kids gone wild. I know grown ups who were raised by strict parents who scholarships and graduated from ivy league schools. You can't isolate one factor like that and hysterically assert it causes anything.

I have to whole-heartedly agree with LionsTigers&Bears that it's really and truly an issue of fostering cooperation.

I also think there's more than just a superficial truth to acknowleging "that's the way he was raised and he doesn't want to think about it. If that's the case than you're not really defending your son, you're putting your son in the middle to defend yourself. Your husband is disrespecting you, discounting your research and your beliefs and ideas. He's asking you to quit making your own informed decisions and raise your child the way his mother did, the way his friends wives are raising their children.

But you didn't marry your mother. You didn't marry your friends wives. You chose me. Don't you believe I'm smart and capable enough to make good parenting decisions in raising the child right?

I don't want to have this argument with dh. I'm not sure where the balance lies exactly. I know who I married. I know we're both working our way privately twords the perfect balance of family harmony. And we're doing it discretely so the house is not filled with mom and dad's arguements. So I do this work internally and I can see that he's doing the same thing. We both REally want this time togeather. A family. What a huge project to do with somebody.

Yes to whoever said someone needs to write a book on unconditional marraigeing (not in a kinky way). I've said that a couple of times here. How far does an ap mothers responsibility go? Some of the mothers who claim to be so kind, understanding, respectful, and tolerant of xhildren are downright hostile and abusive to other people. While some other people seem to have internalized the principles and made it part of their own personality and it applies to everyone in their lives and their children equally.

*not subbing this thread* but watching eagerly for more comments to bump it back to the homepage. I'm working diligently on this issue of balance between dh's needs, ds's well-being, and my own. I have a feeling once I cam see clearly and find the right perspective I won't have to constantly choose between what dh and ds need. How dh and I can raise this kid togeather without having to force each other to "see it my way".
Now which forum was this posted in so I can come back and check for more answers.

I would expect it in "parents as partners" but I was so dissappointed when I looked there. All I could find was man-bashing *vent* and sympathy threads.
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#34 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Southy82 View Post
I must say that I am a father, and I definitely tend to demand a high level of obedience. I've read many reasons why it's good to allow more freedom in children. What I want to know is, why is it bad to demand a high level of obedience, but only towards parents? Obviously, I don't want my daughter succumbing to peer pressure or other nefarious influences.

My wife and I argue over this all the time. So much so, that I would cry, if I cried! I think that many of our daughter's misbehaving activities could be curbed with the following format:
  1. Offense is committed
  2. Warning is issued
  3. If offense continues count to 3
  4. If offense still continues carry out punishment

I argue that if this format was followed for offenses everytime, eventually our daughter would behave optimally. My wife argues that I need to choose my battles. To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.

So, I would appreciate comments on why my method is incorrect. And what are the negative consequences of my method?
Welcome to Mothering! If you are looking for alternatives to punitive parenting, this is a great place to look around in the threads.
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#35 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 02:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Southy82 View Post
  1. Offense is committed
  2. Warning is issued
  3. If offense continues count to 3
  4. If offense still continues carry out punishment

I argue that if this format was followed for offenses everytime, eventually our daughter would behave optimally. My wife argues that I need to choose my battles. To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.

So, I would appreciate comments on why my method is incorrect. And what are the negative consequences of my method?
Well, I don't know your daughter, so I cannot say the method you described is incorrect, but I can point out some potential downsides. For simplicity, and given your membership in this forum, I'm assuming you what you are asking is perfectly reasonable and necessary for health, safety, or family harmony, and are talking time-out type punishment or other humane consequence.

1. If what you are asking her to do isn't within her developmental repertoire, (I.e., she doesn't have the maturity or impulse control), you'll spend a lot of time warning, counting, and punishing. This can set up an adverse relationship that can make it hard to elicit cooperation later. Is that how you want your time with your daughter to be? Also, eventually she'll outgrow the fear of punishment and then what? I used to teach middle schoolers, and it was those whose only discipline was warning then punishment that were the hardest to manage in class. At a certain age kids just stop caring if they are sent into time out or lose a privilege, and they can become very sneaky about not getting caught.

2. It doesn't show her HOW to do what you want her to do. For example, you ask her to turn off the TV, but she's hooked into the show. What she really needs to learn is how to disengage from the hypnotizing images and engage with what you want her to do. People aren't born with that skill, it needs to be taught. Giving her that skill will help her with transitions at other times. Warning, then consequence might get her away from the TV, but she won't have learned a transferrable skill.

3. She may not learn certain values that can help her make decisions later, if that isn't what is emphasized in the conversation. She'll learn that she should do what a parent says to avoid punishment, rather than to be safe nor to be helpful to other people, for example. The book Unconditional Parenting describes how getting kids to behave by punishments teaches them to be self interested; they learn to do certain things because it benefits them, rather than learning to think through everyone's needs in a situation.


To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.


I agree with this. But there are other techniques than what you have described. You might want to check the Playful Parenting anecdotes thread for ideas. The child still gets the connection between 'parent told me to do something' and 'it happened,' so they learn that parental directives are important to listen to, but the way in which 'it happened' is more in line with their developmental level, builds a positive relationship that can lead children to more readily cooperate over the long term, and are a way more pleasant way for parents and children to interact. It helps everyone when parenting is fun for the parent, too.

Mom to DD 10 and DS 8.
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#36 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 02:24 PM
 
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Btw my dad, who didn't raise me, was the first person I ever saw who used logic instead of violence in disciplining his kids (the two he raised). It's not just a guy/girl thing. I just generalized because here it's mostly frusterated mothers wanting help dealing with more old-fashioned minded dh's.
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#37 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 02:29 PM
 
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"2. It doesn't show her HOW to do what you want her to do. For example, you ask her to turn off the TV, but she's hooked into the show. What she really needs to learn is how to disengage from the hypnotizing images and engage with what you want her to do. People aren't born with that skill, it needs to be taught. Giving her that skill will help her with transitions at other times. Warning, then consequence might get her away from the TV, but she won't have learned a transferrable skill."


Teach them what you want them to do without wasting all that time focusing on your big list of "no's"....

That's my very favorite part of the gentle discipline theory.
I've always said "no" was a nasty word. :-)
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#38 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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I would recommend the book Kid Cooperation by Elizabeth Pantley (you may know her from her No-Cry Solution books). Anyway, that book is very straightforward and practical. The most important things I learned from that book:
-pick your battles
-once you commit to a battle, you must follow through, and you must present clear consequences for non-compliance (so keep that in mind when you pick a battle--do you have the time and energy to follow through right then?)
-one of the best ways to foster cooperation is by being playful with your kids

In the OP's situation, I think insisting on a five-year-old coming to sit at the dinner table immediately, with harsh consequences for non-compliance, is not a battle I would pick. Does it really matter if the child joins you later at the table? (personally, I sort of like a few minutes to talk to my dh at the table uninterrupted) Could you set a timer ten minutes before dinner as a warning, and then tell ds to join you when the buzzer rings? Could dh playfully "round up" ds by pretending to be a hungry monster or something?

Here's that book:http://www.amazon.com/Kid-Cooperatio...0464652&sr=8-1

I really highly recommend this book. It gives a checklist of the main points at the end of each chapter, and I found it very helpful to share these points with my dh--we both really appreciated how clear and concise and well-written this book was.

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#39 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Southy82 View Post
My wife and I argue over this all the time. So much so, that I would cry, if I cried! I think that many of our daughter's misbehaving activities could be curbed with the following format:
  1. Offense is committed
  2. Warning is issued
  3. If offense continues count to 3
  4. If offense still continues carry out punishment
I am currently reading the book "The Science of Parenting". It's not so much about parenting than it is about how we parent affects their growth. Brain development, hormones, ability to handle stress later in life, things like that. You might enjoy it. Even my husband is into it (he's NOT into books).

One of the chapters deals with tantrums. Why they're important, how to handle them (at different ages), and the difference between distress tantrums (I'm in emotional pain) and little nero (give me that NOW) tantrums.

At 3 years old, your daughter is very capable of knowing how far she can push and what she can get away with, but when tantrums happens, she's likely to still feel emotional distress, even if the cause of the tantrum appears to be Nero (I want that cookie!).

Setting boundaries (and being there for her emotionally) will send her the message that she can't get away with everything, but punishment will make the situation worse.
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#40 of 41 Old 12-10-2009, 04:58 PM
 
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Another good book on this topic is "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" (and if I'm going to keep recommending it, I really should look up the author's name it is in the sticky at the top of the forum).

Specifically, she talks about looking at the child's intentions and not assuming they're bad.

For instance, if a 3 yo keeps watching TV after being asked to stop she could be
deliberately ignoring the parent (bad intent)
interested in what will happen next on the TV (good intent)

With the first option, you have to address the disrespect issue and you focus on how disrespectful she is.
With the second option, you just have to handle how interesting the TV is, which is a lot easier and a lot less angry-making.

Is the grabbing child selfish or worried that he won't be able to play with the toy?
Does the hitting child want to hurts someone or does he not know how to ask for what he needs?

It also talks about good ways to get a child's attention. It doesn't mention it, but a recent study did find that until age 7 or so a child literally cannot hear you as well as an adult in a noisy room. Their auditory processing ability is undeveloped so that if there's background noise you won't come through clearly.
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#41 of 41 Old 12-11-2009, 05:53 PM
 
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Should children just do as they are told ALL THE TIME?
My short answer is "no." The longer version though, is that if we ask our children to so something that isn't unreasonable and they can't give me a good reason why they can't do it when I'm asking, they have to do it. But they're welcome to try to talk me out of it.

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