"lack of discipline" thread now titled "OT Essays and Rants" - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
Hmmm..... not being able to socialize, play, and engage in physical activities because they just sit there and whine and cry all day long certainly doesn't sound like it's healthy. I'm pretty sure you'd have to find evidence to DISPROVE it......
Your posts speak for themself candiland.

Once again.

Peace.
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#32 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is really bizarre. You asked how to prove a toddler not napping isn't healthy. Wouldn't you agree that a child that is unable to function because he/she is exhausted all the time isn't healthy? Or is that totally nuts or something?

I'm absolutely a live-and-let-live kind of person. But I hate the fact that I know people who run around claiming that their total lack of parenting is "gentle discipline", because it's not. That's the whole point I was trying to make. Did you read my post about my friend's toddler? Letting her hit, push, and grab every five seconds without so much as a "you shouldn't do that, it's not respectful"? That is NOT GENTLE DISCIPLINE, it's a lack of discipline. I don't understand how seeing that is somehow not being a live-and-let-live kind of person :
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#33 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chfriend
Okay, threads like this make me feel cranky. People are going to criticize your parenting. People are going to criticize your parenting whether or not my kids take a nap. People are going to criticize your parenting whether my kids follows a routine you recognize or not.

The folks who don't understand the concept of gentle discipline aren't going to "get it" because I parent differently.

These threads start up in the GD forum every now and then. It seems like it's about reassuring ourselves that the hard work of GD is worth it.

My feeling is that my parenting relationship is none of anyone else's business, so I don't care who criticizes it. Some of the stuff I do and don't do might strike an uninvolved party as off. The hard work of GD is worth to me to forge a good relationship with a person I will know and love for the rest of my life. I don't see a reason in the world to care whether anyone else likes it, or even if it makes someone else's mother-in-law (who wasn't going to like your gentle parenting anyway) make an off-comment.

Yup, these threads make me cranky....

(btw, mama g, I think offering your sister advice and support is a different thing than being critical. I'm glad her little one is feeling better.)
Excellent post. Very well said.

Thank you.

I'm off now people as I have a child who needs my attention, enjoy the discussion.
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#34 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My kids are napping :LOL

sorry, but that IS kind of funny.......
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#35 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
My kids are napping :LOL

sorry, but that IS kind of funny.......
I did have to come back and chuckle.

Hey, my kid just woke up not long ago. :LOL
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#36 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:25 PM
 
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FWIW, candiland - I got what you were saying in your first post and I totally agree It drives me crazy when permissive parenting (or no parenting) = gentle discipline
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#37 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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See, you all have discovered my dirty little secret. My kids don't actually NEED naps anymore... I just force them to take naps so I can play on MDC
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#38 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 05:02 PM
 
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I totally agree with candiland. Sometimes being a momma is tough and requires hard decisions. But little ones are put in our care for a purpose...they need guidance.
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#39 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 05:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bamamom
I totally agree with candiland. Sometimes being a momma is tough and requires hard decisions. But little ones are put in our care for a purpose...they need guidance.
I'm afraid for my own sanity, I have to unsubscribe from this thread.

Who on earth advocated not providing guidance?

Cheers.
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#40 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 05:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
We also went through the refusal to take naps thing. Me or my dh would lay with dd or ds until they fell asleep, no matter how much they protested. It WAS affecting their physical and emotional health, and I don't play around with that. Just like no matter how much my toddler tantrumed because he wanted to eat a bag of sugar, I wouldn't let him do it. It could make him sick and he doesn't have the rational ability to think it through on his own...... that's what he has parents for.
Again...how do you *make* a child sleep?

I realize that you say you "went thru the refusal", and you lay down despite the protest, but you haven't parented *my* child, and you have no idea what her sleep issues are. Or how hard we tried to resolve them. You just have no idea.
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#41 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 05:37 PM
 
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And, fwiw, I have no lingering issues about my parenting during that time. We did the best we could, and I had the very best intentions. I certainly was not lazy. But I would love to show a different perspective so that another parent could be spared the judgment and the criticism, especially when they are struggling the most.
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#42 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 05:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
Oh, and I do know a lazy parent. Sorry, but I hung out with her on a daily basis and saw it firsthand. Her dd would repeatedly hit my daughter, push her down onto concrete walkways, take everything from her... and her mom would laugh and say "Oh, let them work it out by themselves!" She was too irresponsible to deal with the behavior so she chose to ignore it. I got sick of the abuse and stopped hanging out with her. And yes, she labeled this parenting "gentle discipline". Ummmm, nope, sorry, it's a total lack of discipline.
ITA and people have really jumped on the nap issue. But I too have seen parents who will let their kids do anything to others and simply allow it to happen. Like school-age kids sticking their hands in dishes at a potluck and their parents completely ignoring it. I knew some children who broke into a neighbor's house to steal ice cream and their parents pretended nothing had happened. My daughter was 5 and was with them! I have watched kids lie to their parents and the parents knew it and they just shrug... And that "Let them work it out by themselves" comment argh! For toddlers. And from some of those ultra-crunchy cool young hippie folks YK.

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#43 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 06:19 PM
 
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I know lots of lazy parents. and lots of people who are lazy and not parents. It just has nothing to do with GD. I know lazy parents that spank, lazy parents that constantly threaten time outs and lazy parents that never get off their behinds when their kid is hitting mine.

Yeah, being around lazy parents is a bad day. It just has nothing to do with GD.
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#44 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 06:40 PM
 
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Wow, people really ran away with the stupid nap comment, that wasn't even the point of the thread! I get what you are saying Candi.
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#45 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 07:31 PM
 
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Unfortunately some parents are lazy and they themselves consider it to be GD and "nice" because of it. Yes the OP point was that it isn't REALLY gd and shouldn't be "labelled" as such.

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#46 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 07:48 PM
 
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I even get it from my husband He seems to think that the children aren't "disciplined" because they aren't spanked or punished. UGH! But he's too "lazy" to do anything about his opinion. And he knows he's not allowed to spank or punish them so he just kind of leaves it all up to me. So there! At least he follows my lead somewhat and models my gentle discipline methods. He also helps me get more structured and organized with the children and they thrive on that loose schedule. When he works late, I have a hard time sticking to our usual routine.
I also agree with Devi. I'm tired of the desire to control being called discipline too. I guide my children. I parent my children. I don't get involved in trying to control everything. That's just a whole lot of power struggles.
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#47 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 07:57 PM
 
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Forgive typos - nak!

I see what you are saying, though, I can't say that I've encountered much of that (lazieness being labled as gd.) There are, however, children who make their parents "look bad." I'm thinking of ADD, ADHD, High Needs, Sensitive, And Sensory children. My ds could be labled as anyone of these. I can not begin to tell you the things people - ap & gd even - have said, done, and implied about me and my ds. Well actually, you mamas have said many of the things they have said to and about me.
I'm not saying that you are talking about mamas like me, but sometimes it is hard to tell that a mama is doing her best because it may look like the she is lazy, when in reality she is picking her battles (though I am certainly not condoning letting a child harm anyone, obviously this is a battle to pick!) It can drive a mama insane trying to control a child like this, and it can be damaging to the child. My ds can be completely overwhelming, to me and others. He can be very physical, demanding, chalenging, obsessive, and rather unpleasent. He is strong willed, but very sensitive to critisism. This may seem like an advntage, but he doesn't HEAR anything I say, just that I am unhappy with him, so he gets mad at me!

I know I am a good mama, and that I am doing the best for my child, and doing EVERYTHING I can. Sometimes, though, it really makes me feel like crap when I hear good mamas talking about this stuff. It's so very hard to say what you would do when in someone else's shoes. It's very different when it's YOUR child, and YOU LOVE them, and you understand that it's not your poor parenting, but your child's personality that cuases him to act this way. I was jugdmental before I had kids, and especially when ds was little, and so well behaved. Little did I know.

I'm just saying, mamas, careful who you call lazy, because it can be SO very hard to say for sure.
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#48 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:03 PM
 
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I'm still wondering HOW you make a child sleep, too! This is seriously one I would like advice on, though I suspect that I have truely tried everything!
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I always love to hear a mama say this! :LOVE

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#50 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:08 PM
 
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It's always good to be careful about how harshly you discuss "those people" in the third person, because there tend to be those present who mistake themselves for those people (based on your concrete examples) and feel offended. It seems like if your interpretation is correct, the parents you're talking about are guilty of neglect. They are failing to provide support to their children. But in reality, most parents are informed by a range of different beliefs and motives when it comes to providing support. Like understanding a child's motives when GDing, understanding other parents takes circumspection and communication.

Here is a good article challenging the seemingly self-evident role of "lack of rational judgment" when it comes to trusting toddlers: http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...an-nature.html

Oye Yemaya oloto
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#51 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:10 PM
 
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I'm still wondering HOW you make a child sleep, too! This is seriously one I would like advice on, though I suspect that I have truely tried everything!
I know! Can't MAKE them eat, sleep, or use the potty. heh.
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#52 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:14 PM
 
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Hi Carrie That's what I always say too. Discipline is about teaching, not punishing. Some people use punishment to teach but NOT ME!
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#53 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:15 PM
 
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OK confessions of a lazy (unenlightened, uneducated confused but also in large part lazy) parent.

Funny how this always comes back to napping because it doesn't have to but napping issues was my lightbulb moment. Lily never slept. 15 minute stretchs from birth and she was horrid. I have almost no goodmemories from our first two years and we had actually decided not to have any more children because we couldn't deal with the behavior and health issues in both of us due to being chronically over tired nor did I want to have a nother child if there was a chance we would have this kind of struggle. BUt I belived children would sleep when they needed to sleep so I never did anything. Why did I believe that when it was obviously not true? Becuase it was the easiest thing for me to believe. it was the first things I read. I didn't have to look any further. this statement justified the type ofparenting I wanted to do. I didn't have to be tied to schedules. I didn't have to do elaborate bedtime routiens. No cry it out (of course Lily was so tired and cranky that she cried non stop, injured herselfregularly, was always sick and losing weight by 6months old dut at least she wasn't crying because she was alone in her crib which some how made it more OK) I was told to buck up and lower my expectations. This too shall pass. it wasn't passaing fast enough forme and I decided nomore children, dream over, i hate parenting but fortunately when we made the descision not to have any more children I was already pregnant but then I paniced because I couldn't do it again. I cried for days. then I picked myself up and went out and bought the no cry sleep solution, every lavender scented product ont he market, new pajamas and pillows, candles, a note book, re-read a book I had bought earlier (The 7 o'clock Bedtime - highly recomend it) and cleared my calander for a couple of months. I was not leaving my house until this child slept. And we did it. It was a ton of work. I missed out on a lot of stuff. there were a lot of tears shed by both of us before it was all said and done. but with in 3 days she was going to bed at 8 instead of 1, within a month she was napping regularly for the first time in her life, and within two months I was putting her to bed at 8, doing a shortened version of our routien, kidding her good night andleaving her to drift off peacfully and she still took two hour naps in the afternoon (which in my opinion almost all 24month olds need ). and best yert, she is sweet and pleasent and intellegent and coordinated and reletively healthy. SOmething we never had before. wehn she doesn't get enough rest during the day or has a short night things decline quickly (she is 4 1/2 by the way) she still has nightmares and sleep walking episodes when she is very very tired. usually on nights we don't respect her bedtime. BUt altgether better.

so here is what I learned. Not all children are easy. Not all kids want to sleep. I had read about bedtime routiens but until I established one, wrote it out to the minute and followed it exactly every night to the letter (hating every minute of it) and stuck to a routien both daily and nightly doing things at almost exactly the same time every day. And I hated it. I wanted my care free, schedule free whatever suits me life. And that my friends was laziness. resistance to change. not being respectful of my childrens needs. holdingon to a philosphy, ideals bwhilemy children suffered (and don't think my then 4 year old didn't suffer terribly but I didn't know what to do. t his was supposed to be the answer for every baby, hold and nurse was all you needed to do so it is all I did) She still doesn't always want to go to bed. who does. Then I would sit right by her and not let her get up until she fell asleep. yeah she pitched a fit but as someone else said she wouldbe pitching a fit if I told her no more candy or told her she had to go to the Dr. and it wouldn't phase me. why this? And sleep is a health issue!! those of you with rested children might not understand how big of one but those of us with chronically over tired children need no scientific proof that lack of sleep changs a child emotionally, behaviourally and physically. it is not pretty.

I know "GD" (actually just lazy permissive) beyond sleep who hold to the philosophy that they know what they need and don't need to do anything. They are awful! They eat junk, no/little grooming (cause they don't like it), money to spend without limits and junk food without limits. They wouldn'tmake them go to the Dr. if they didn't want to. wouldn't make them go anywhere (until all this wears a little thin and the parents snap and go into scary rages) everytime I see them they have junk in thier hands or money to buy junk. if they run out of allowance and want a pop mombuys them one. They don't brush thier teeth so they are rotting out. these kids are little. They think it will build thier self esteem. I think if they make it to adulthood they are gonna be pissed at the lack of insistance that there parents had about thier health care. about thier attitudes. about being given responsibilities they weren't ready for. And they are awful kids. they are snotty, and mean and distructive and demanding and unappreciative. My mom had to hold me down to brush my teeth and thank goodness she did because you only get one shot. and I really notice peoples smiles. My point is these famlies that In know claim they believe these great philosphies but really thier philosophies are just thierblanket of justification to parent the way they do.

and I am not saying all GD is bad, obviously not. or even allpermissiveness is lazy. some people work really hard to creat an environment in which they can be permissive. too much for me. I would just rather have boundries but whatever floats your boat so long as your child is happy and well care for. not just not dead but healthy. I really think some of the stuff I see being passed off as "GD" is neglect. if someone wasn't feeding thier child we would report them. if someone wasn't keeping thier child clean enough or whatever would we report that? what if thier child was sick and they refused medical treatment because thier child hated Dr.s?

And about itnot being anyones business how we parent. Ya know if I was spanking or advocating cry it out or scheduled feeding formy own convience youwould be all over me. heck if I wanted to circumsize or vaccinate you would be all up in my business. It swings both ways. People just want to make sure that kids are being taken care of. it isn't a whos the greatest parent contest and just because you believe your philosophy and ideals are right doesn'tm ean no one is allowed to question you on them. If you are going let your children get sick and cranky from toomuch sugar, become violent from to much violent TV, injured regularly because they aren't getting enough sleep then youhad better be prepared to justify it IMHO. Just like if someone truely felt spanking was nessecary they had better have a good reason andbe willing to share. especially in a forum set up for sharing. we aren't here to just smile andnod at everything, we are here to hash out the finer points of gentle discipline and why feel called to it.

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#54 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chfriend
I know lots of lazy parents. and lots of people who are lazy and not parents. It just has nothing to do with GD. I know lazy parents that spank, lazy parents that constantly threaten time outs and lazy parents that never get off their behinds when their kid is hitting mine.

Yeah, being around lazy parents is a bad day. It just has nothing to do with GD.
Very well said, and I totally agree I was probably the one that got the thread off track and onto the dreaded "nap" tangent. I apologize if it dorked everything all up, but it did touch on an issue that had been flung at me before IRL as being a "lazy parent". (My not forcing my kids to nap when they were young) So I guess I just felt called to say that not everyone feels it's important is all. I really did understand the point the OP was making

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#55 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 08:45 PM
 
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I was chatting with someone on IM while I was replying to this (makes BB much more fun - try it )and said more consicely what I was trying to get at.


many people pick GD some people just work harder at the discipline part. If they want thier child tosay for instance nap, they restructure thier life so that they can create a routien (even if they hate it) start the bedtime routien (even if they hate it) eliminate dairy or whatever (even though it make thier life terribly complicated) and find the problem and solve it. some say (me for instance, at least until I couldn't take it anymore. ) "uh, when she gets really tired she will start sleeping. I can deal with the tantrums until then" And some people just don't know they can do somehting. they truely belive that every babys answer lies in the one book that all the cool kids are trumpeting. (me again) even when it clearly doesn't. but really that still goes back to being toolazy to change your own thoughts. I knew bedtimeroutien was the answer. but I never tried it. the GD books didn't say anything about it really and I didn't have to do it with my first why should I have to do it with this one.

but I need to get off my lazy butt and fix supper. my toddler will be waking up from her nap soon

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#56 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 09:02 PM
 
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lilyka wrote:
and I am not saying all GD is bad, obviously not. or even allpermissiveness is lazy. some people work really hard to creat an environment in which they can be permissive.

I guess that would be my family. My children make all their own decisions regarding food (yes, that includes candy or "junk"), they control their own money, they control when they sleep, what they wear, and their own TV/movie/music choices. I give my advice, my guidance, my honest opinion etc...but in the end the choice is made by them. It's never been an issue for us. Perhaps that is because we have always known that this is how we feel we should be parenting, and it it's just automatic. It is our environment and lifestyle, but I don't feel I had to work hard to create it.

we aren't here to just smile andnod at everything, we are here to hash out the finer points of gentle discipline and why feel called to it.

I totally agree with that, and I was actually trying to make that point in a different thread there.

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#57 of 138 Old 01-20-2005, 09:57 PM
 
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I couldn't have said it better, and I'm glad you have a personal experiencce with this to share. I'm so proud that you made that decision to tough it out and take your life back. If something isn't working for a family, then they need to change something!! If I could hug you, I would. Thanks for sharing!!
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#58 of 138 Old 01-21-2005, 12:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka
OK confessions of a lazy (unenlightened, uneducated confused but also in large part lazy) parent.
so here is what I learned. Not all children are easy. Not all kids want to sleep. I had read about bedtime routiens but until I established one, wrote it out to the minute and followed it exactly every night to the letter (hating every minute of it) and stuck to a routien both daily and nightly doing things at almost exactly the same time every day. And I hated it. I wanted my care free, schedule free whatever suits me life. And that my friends was laziness. resistance to change. not being respectful of my childrens needs. holdingon to a philosphy, ideals bwhilemy children suffered (and don't think my then 4 year old didn't suffer terribly but I didn't know what to do.

yeah she pitched a fit but as someone else said she wouldbe pitching a fit if I told her no more candy or told her she had to go to the Dr. and it wouldn't phase me. why this? And sleep is a health issue!! those of you with rested children might not understand how big of one but those of us with chronically over tired children need no scientific proof that lack of sleep changs a child emotionally, behaviourally and physically. it is not pretty.

I know "GD" (actually just lazy permissive) beyond sleep who hold to the philosophy that they know what they need and don't need to do anything. They are awful! They eat junk, no/little grooming (cause they don't like it), money to spend without limits and junk food without limits. They wouldn'tmake them go to the Dr. if they didn't want to. wouldn't make them go anywhere (until all this wears a little thin and the parents snap and go into scary rages) everytime I see them they have junk in thier hands or money to buy junk. if they run out of allowance and want a pop mombuys them one. They don't brush thier teeth so they are rotting out. these kids are little. They think it will build thier self esteem. I think if they make it to adulthood they are gonna be pissed at the lack of insistance that there parents had about thier health care. about thier attitudes. about being given responsibilities they weren't ready for. And they are awful kids. they are snotty, and mean and distructive and demanding and unappreciative. My mom had to hold me down to brush my teeth and thank goodness she did because you only get one shot. and I really notice peoples smiles. My point is these famlies that In know claim they believe these great philosphies but really thier philosophies are just thierblanket of justification to parent the way they do.


And about itnot being anyones business how we parent. Ya know if I was spanking or advocating cry it out or scheduled feeding formy own convience youwould be all over me. heck if I wanted to circumsize or vaccinate you would be all up in my business. It swings both ways. People just want to make sure that kids are being taken care of. it isn't a whos the greatest parent contest and just because you believe your philosophy and ideals are right doesn'tm ean no one is allowed to question you on them. If you are going let your children get sick and cranky from toomuch sugar, become violent from to much violent TV, injured regularly because they aren't getting enough sleep then youhad better be prepared to justify it IMHO. Just like if someone truely felt spanking was nessecary they had better have a good reason andbe willing to share. especially in a forum set up for sharing. we aren't here to just smile andnod at everything, we are here to hash out the finer points of gentle discipline and why feel called to it.

Thank you for pointing out that parenting isn't about holding to our ideals despite what our children need. It is! about doing what our children need and finding ways to make sure that they get it. Even when it isn't what we thought it would be!!!!!!

I thought you brought up a good point about the general williness to judge as long as we have decided it okay. Something to think more on.
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#59 of 138 Old 01-21-2005, 01:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Well, while I generally agree with the message of your post, I had that non-napping-but-miserable toddler. My question was, and remains, how do you force a toddler to sleep? My many efforts were unsuccessful..... so miserable, non-napping toddler it was.



Yup, I was totally with her except for that one part. My older dd was never a big napper. I think I have tried everything under the sun, yes, including NCSS. Thank goodness my second baby naps like a champ.

Nobody wants those cranky toddlers to nap more than their worn out mamas! I have been able to require a regular "quiet time" where we all lie in bed together with no talking allowed, but naps have always been optional.
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#60 of 138 Old 01-21-2005, 02:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eminer
It's always good to be careful about how harshly you discuss "those people" in the third person, because there tend to be those present who mistake themselves for those people (based on your concrete examples) and feel offended. It seems like if your interpretation is correct, the parents you're talking about are guilty of neglect. They are failing to provide support to their children. But in reality, most parents are informed by a range of different beliefs and motives when it comes to providing support. Like understanding a child's motives when GDing, understanding other parents takes circumspection and communication.

Here is a good article challenging the seemingly self-evident role of "lack of rational judgment" when it comes to trusting toddlers: http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...an-nature.html
It's interesting to me that this very open and supportive post goes unnoticed, while those posts condemning other parental choices are loudly applauded? I am shocked at what I'm reading here at Mothering.com.

I must be a gluton for punishment to come back and read this stuff. I highly doubt that there are many parents out there who use GD as an excuse to neglect their child.

I'd like to share the opening statement in our local tribal thread:

Are you in or near X?
Do you want to be?

Well, then you have found your tribe! Despite our diverse backgrounds, beliefs, and interests, two things bond us together: living in the coldest state on earth...and the love for our children which warms us. The weekly tribe thread begins anew each Saturday. Watch for the new thread on the main Minnesota/Wisconsin board.

Some of the individuals who post here meet weekly. If you are interested in attending a get together, please post your interest on the thread or send any one of us a PM. We welcome with open arms and minds the input of all parents, regardless of race, color, national origin, religion, political view, age, sex, sexual orientation, disability, etc.


I have yet to meet anyone in my tribal area who would fall into the category of "neglectful and or lazy" because he/she did not do things as I do.

This thread is very sad

I won't return to this thread again, but I wanted to share my last thoughts on this matter.

Good Night.
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