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#1 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DD (4) today cut the baby's hair. Plus one lock of her own. But the baby's hair....

When I asked her who cut the baby's hair, her response was, "I dunno." She is maintaining that she isn't the one who did it nor does she know who did (even her own hair).

I have asked her calmly and in private if she would please tell me who cut their hair. I reminded her that lying is unacceptable and that lying about something is much worse than cutting hair.

I asked her when she might feel like telling me the truth.
After we eat lunch?
No.
Before bedtime today?
No.
When, honey?
I'll tell you the truth after we eat.
Ok.

Help me out here- I want to support her in telling the truth. I don't know what to do about the hair cutting. Times like this I draw a complete blank on a good, GD response to the situation despite having read all the books I'm 'supposed to'. I am so sad about the baby's hair my heart hurts. Consequences, punishments, prevention for the future- not sure where to even start:
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#2 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 09:11 PM
 
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I have no ideas but having your babe's haircut sounds hard s I would be very upset too.
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#3 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 09:13 PM
 
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if you knew it was her, why did you ask her?

Can't you just approach the situation from "you cut her hair and..." rather than starting with a question that gives her the chance to tell you something you don't want to hear?
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#4 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 09:25 PM
 
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No Ideas but we have had the same happen here. Sorry.


My Boys ages 7 & 8 recently cut off their sisters pigtails. :
my first reaction was to freak and I did. It took her 2 years to grow what little hair she had then to cut them off under the elastic,leaving bauld spots!
They also gave each other hair cuts and grazed both dogs.


Dh lost his mind and they lost everything in their rooms.(not a great Idea)


I just not remind them that they are not to cut anything but paper.That they could hurt someone else.

DD runs around saying "no,no boys no cut me hair!"

Doing what I can to make better choices every day!
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#5 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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if you knew it was her, why did you ask her? Can't you just approach the situation from "you cut her hair and..." rather than starting with a question that gives her the chance to tell you something you don't want to hear?
When I asked her I didn't know at that point who had done it. Could have been any one of three of them. Actually 4, since there is the slight possibility that the baby did it herself (although I ruled that out after inspecting the baby's hair and the back of her hair is cut as well and I know she couldn't have done that herself). I walked into a room covered in Baby's hair, and I started asking, "Did you cut the baby's hair?" When I got unanimous "No"s, I had to start narrowing it down.
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#6 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 10:30 PM
 
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I know it sounds silly, but I would have a talk with the scissors and tell them that they need to be put in a safe place so we know we can make safe choices including being honest about things...In front of her...I've done this on some occasions and it seems to make light of a situation knowing that the reason wasn't to hurt anyone it is really cause and effect.
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#7 of 36 Old 09-29-2008, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by emdeecee_sierra View Post
When I asked her I didn't know at that point who had done it. Could have been any one of three of them. ...I walked into a room covered in Baby's hair, and I started asking, "Did you cut the baby's hair?" When I got unanimous "No"s, I had to start narrowing it down.
How did you narrow it down. If you didn't know who did it and they all said no, how do you know it was her? If you know she did it, stop asking her if she did it and state the facts as you know them. In my opinion it has be come a power struggle that you cannot win. BTW, how old are the others?

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Originally Posted by emdeecee_sierra
Consequences, punishments, prevention for the future- not sure where to even start.
Consequences to anyone cutting anyones hair could be that children don't use scissors without an adult present, across the board enforcement for all.

Punishment is usually just a way to alleviate parental frustration. It 's effects are short lived, accomplish nothing, and can cause harm.

Prevention is tied in with the consequence, no scissors without adult oversite for a while.

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#8 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by emdeecee_sierra View Post
DD (4) today cut the baby's hair. Plus one lock of her own. But the baby's hair....

When I asked her who cut the baby's hair, her response was, "I dunno." She is maintaining that she isn't the one who did it nor does she know who did (even her own hair).

I have asked her calmly and in private if she would please tell me who cut their hair. I reminded her that lying is unacceptable and that lying about something is much worse than cutting hair.

I asked her when she might feel like telling me the truth.
After we eat lunch?
No.
Before bedtime today?
No.
When, honey?
I'll tell you the truth after we eat.
Ok.

Help me out here- I want to support her in telling the truth. I don't know what to do about the hair cutting. Times like this I draw a complete blank on a good, GD response to the situation despite having read all the books I'm 'supposed to'. I am so sad about the baby's hair my heart hurts. Consequences, punishments, prevention for the future- not sure where to even start:



Personally, i would not allow my child to have that much control over me. She wil either tell me; or she can sit in her room until she does. Obviously, she has good enough reasoning skills and the knowledge to make up a lie. So, she will know why she is sitting in her room. You could tell her, "Okay, since you don't want to tell the truth, you can sit here in your room until you do. When you are ready to tell the truth, you may come out." If she still doesn't tell the truth, she loses all priveledges until she does. Life will get boring, won't it? Too bad, as I don't deal well with lying. I'd rather me give her a consequence for that action instead of her going out into the world and getting a more severe consequence, such as by a police officer. It is better to break the habit while they are young.

When she does tell the truth, i'll congradulate her: but I will still punnish her for lying, even if she eventually told the truth, as i'd like to send the message that lying is very unacceptable and will not be tollerated at all. Then, I'll lovingly discuss what could happen if a person lies. For mine, since I do read the Bible, I show them stories out of it about people who did what the child did, and show the consequences that individual suffered. I ask what the child thought of the story and what she thought of what the person did. Then, i ask her if she would want that to happen to her. She'd give her answer. And then, we'd discuss things until the child had an understanding of why it is not right.

Definitely have consequences, as it is unrealistic not to since they are out there in the real world: but be loving at the same time. Also, it is important to reason with the child and show them why it is not right so they'll better relate.

Yelling, hitting, screaming, and stuff like that is not constructive and could cause rebellion later. We don't like to be yelled or scremed at, so why do it to the children? That is what I ask myself when parents do that to their kids. If you feel like you will yel, as it can get frustrating, walk away.

If you don't want to punnish for lying, even after the child told the truth, you could always enforce silent treatment. Don't talk to the child until the truth is told. When the truth is told, reason things out lovingly letting your child know that lying is for losers--my mom always told me that--and you do not talk to liars. Whatever you do is your choice. Just thought I'd help.

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#9 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 06:16 PM
 
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I agree about not asking small kids who did it. At first, you only had to deal with the misuse of scissors issue. Now you need to deal with scissor misuse and with lying.

I'm happier if I don't give our kids the chance to lie. They don't understand how much a lie bothers me. Since we don't dole out punishment it doesn't really matter who did it. We just review the general rules and principles, take steps to reduce the chance that it will happen again, and move on. It doesn't hurt for everybody to hear a rule reviewed.

Preschoolers come to an understanding about lying very gradually. I honestly think it's easier to just not go there until kids are a bit older. Kids will often say what they wish was true, or they interpret the question differently than you even realize (I have lots of funny stories relating to this). When kids do lie they don't do it with the same understanding or premeditation as adults. When issues regarding truth and lies do come up with preschoolers it's better to use the opportunity to educate them about how adults view and feel about lying.

Even when kids get a little older and do have some understanding about lies I don't like the dynamic it creates... the powerful parent waiting for the truth and the child being completely put on the spot, alone and without support, asked to produce the truth even though they know it's not what the parent wants to hear.

I love the idea of talking to the scissors. I expect that the scissors, markers and glue will all be hearing from me in the near future!

Julie - Mom to Elizabeth (Libby) age 6, Penelope (Penny) age 5, Elliott age 29 months, and Oscar who is 1 year old!
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#10 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 06:32 PM
 
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I agree about not asking small kids who did it. At first, you only had to deal with the misuse of scissors issue. Now you need to deal with scissor misuse and with lying.

I'm happier if I don't give our kids the chance to lie. They don't understand how much a lie bothers me. Since we don't dole out punishment it doesn't really matter who did it. We just review the general rules and principles, take steps to reduce the chance that it will happen again, and move on. It doesn't hurt for everybody to hear a rule reviewed.

Preschoolers come to an understanding about lying very gradually. I honestly think it's easier to just not go there until kids are a bit older. Kids will often say what they wish was true, or they interpret the question differently than you even realize (I have lots of funny stories relating to this). When kids do lie they don't do it with the same understanding or premeditation as adults. When issues regarding truth and lies do come up with preschoolers it's better to use the opportunity to educate them about how adults view and feel about lying.

Even when kids get a little older and do have some understanding about lies I don't like the dynamic it creates... the powerful parent waiting for the truth and the child being completely put on the spot, alone and without support, asked to produce the truth even though they know it's not what the parent wants to hear.

I love the idea of talking to the scissors. I expect that the scissors, markers and glue will all be hearing from me in the near future!
This is a good approach.

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#11 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 08:15 PM
 
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This might sound strange, but do you think she knows she did it? Is it possible that the act was impulsive, and after the fact she knew you would be angry, so she suppressed the memory?

I know this is far out for a lot of folks, but with young children, I don't focus on whether something is true or not. I really think they have their own realities. And I also think that those realities are very charged by us, as parents. So a child who has done something that the parent isn't going to like may actually believe that she didn't do it.

Now, I don't have a four year old, so I can't help with where the interactions are there. Maybe I wouldn't focus on the "truth or lie" aspect of the equation. I might just focus on cutting someone else's hair without her permission. She can internalize that discussion without the blame aspect.
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#12 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 08:37 PM
 
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Most kids would lie if they felt like it was the best choice at the time.

If you say "Was it you?" to all the kids, of course they are going to say "no".

Stop asking her if she did it, and ask her something like "Where did you get the scissors?" Or "which scissors did you use to cut the hair?".

Then when/if she shows you, just say thankyou, and drop it for now, but later on, tell her that it made you really sad that she cut the baby's hair.

I think most kids cut their own hair before age six, so if this is your first incident of hair cutting, you are doing pretty good!

My dd did it when she was two. It took a full year before she had a cute hair cut again. She cut the ENTIRE front all the way to the scalp.
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#13 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 09:07 PM
 
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I know this is far out for a lot of folks, but with young children, I don't focus on whether something is true or not. I really think they have their own realities. And I also think that those realities are very charged by us, as parents. So a child who has done something that the parent isn't going to like may actually believe that she didn't do it.
: Remember 4 year olds are new here, they depend on us for help them feel secure.
I have a 5 year old and my heart would ache if anyone referred to him as a liar.
I think it is perfectly normal for a small child to try to please us with what they think we want to hear and I'm sure we can guide them in the direction to make better choices.
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#14 of 36 Old 10-02-2008, 11:03 PM
 
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Well, AFTER I got done having my own tantrum about the baby's cut hair, I might actually stop and think:

What do I want my kids to learn from this experience?
What can we do to keep this from happening again?

FWIW "I dunno" is a pretty 'mild'. It means "I don't want to tell you." She didn't point to someone else and say "S/he did it!" But let's face it, at the time the question was asked, she KNEW you were upset (unless you're a much better actor than I am!), so her goal was to avoid your anger.

I don't know if a 4 year old can 'get' the how serious the offense is - the emotional stuff that is connected with baby's first hair cut is probably over her head. I don't know if there's a safety concern associated with it.

What I'd want my kids to learn is:
I was very upset. How special the first hair cut is, and now the baby isn't going to get that.

What I'd do:
Lock up the scissors for a good long time.
Make the 4 year old shadow me for a day or so to show that if I can't trust her behavior or her words, she needs to be where I can see her.

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#15 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 01:08 AM
 
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Oh.. Also...

When the older kids are NOT looking...

Take some pictures of the baby's new haircut. Because in five years, this will be a funny story.

O.K.. maybe in ten years.
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#16 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 02:12 AM
 
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first give a big sigh of relief. you are done. the haircut is over. almost everyone i know has a haircut story when they or their child was 4 which includes mine. most of them do it one time and that's it. i did too.

to me just what the whole household is going thru is punishment enough. i recall from my childhood when we did things really really bad, really serious and thought we would be dead when daddy got home, we were never disciplined or punished. it was agonising to wait for the axe to fall and yet a huge relief when it didnt. oh boy did that waiting teach us such a lesson than any kind of punishment would have.

so you are not sure but i will go with ur mom instinct that it was ur 4 year old dd.

is your 4 year old imaginative. many times it might be their imaginary friend who did it and so its true when she said she didnt do it.

if i were in ur shoes i would let it go. esp. if this is the first time she has 'lied'. every incident doesnt have to be a 'learning' experience - somehow-i-am-teaching-them-to-lie situation. perhpas ur silence one day will bring out the truth. if u really want to persue it i love the PP's idea of talking to the scissors.

and yes in a years time or less you will be laughing about it as i do about my dd's 'haircut'. you should have seen her face when i 'caught' her. even today she talks about how she thought she had had it. that she was 'dead'.

for some reason i know children find hair cutting fascinating. i almost think every child should be given teh opportunity to do their secret desire. a wig or even a pony tail. but they really should be give one or two chances to cut hair. i have let my dd cut my hair after that incident coz she said she soooo badly wanted to cut hair.

big hugs for the waves of hurt - not only about ur sweet baby's hair but the whole situation.

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#17 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 04:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
Well, AFTER I got done having my own tantrum about the baby's cut hair, I might actually stop and think:

What do I want my kids to learn from this experience?
What can we do to keep this from happening again?

FWIW "I dunno" is a pretty 'mild'. It means "I don't want to tell you." She didn't point to someone else and say "S/he did it!" But let's face it, at the time the question was asked, she KNEW you were upset (unless you're a much better actor than I am!), so her goal was to avoid your anger.

I don't know if a 4 year old can 'get' the how serious the offense is - the emotional stuff that is connected with baby's first hair cut is probably over her head. I don't know if there's a safety concern associated with it.

What I'd want my kids to learn is:
I was very upset. How special the first hair cut is, and now the baby isn't going to get that.

What I'd do:
Lock up the scissors for a good long time.
Make the 4 year old shadow me for a day or so to show that if I can't trust her behavior or her words, she needs to be where I can see her.


This is also a good approach and one that I have not thought of. What a great way to show the penalties that come with lying--nobody will trust you. When a kid figures that out, it will stop.

What my mom used to do is make the punnishment or consequence more severe when lying versus if the truth was told. I can remember telling my mother, at the age of six, that the reason I lied was because I was scared, but that was not an acceptable answer with her. Neither will it be with me. Lying causes mistrust, and it won't be tollerated. That is what I want my children to learn, so they won't be called a liar and so they will have a good reputation as a good and trustworthy individual. Such values are learned from the cradle. If we wait too long to enforce them, chances are, it will be too late. Start teaching them when it first start, even if the child is only two. If he fibs, give a penalty for that letting him know that he did not tell the truth. I did this with my friend's daughter. She had lied and told me she had not pooped her pants when she did--she was potty training and is a very intelligent child and knows better. (It was not a question of having an accident because of not knowing better since she would go to the potty when she knew she was getting a treat. So there was no question about her abilities to use the bathroom. She was doing it to be bad.) She clearly had. I cleaned her up and I told her that she will not play for awhile--ten minutes--because she said she did not poop when she did. I simplified things appropriate for her age so she'd understand. When I put her in her room, I repeated again why she was there. She did not like it but that was too bad.

When I came back for her, I told her what she had done. Then, we practiced, so she'd know the difference between lying and the truth. Then, I asked her if she'd tell me "no" when she really did something and the answer was yes. She told me she would not. And I told her that if she lied again, she'd be in trouble again and everytime she did it thereafter. My friend agreed with me, as she is one also advocating to teach children good values from babyhood. Not to mention, she doesn't want her child to be hated by the rest of the community because she was a liar. Some bad habits are started when a child is young, and if a parent does nothing to break them, that parent sets the child up to fail. It is the loving thing to teach when young.

The first seven years of a child's life is when he learns the most and forms his personality. After age seven, the child is who he is. He is already molded, and it will be a lot harder to undo what was done. Much psychological literature states this fact, hence which is why a younger child learns much quicker and easier than an older one, such as the learning of a foreign language. Little ones can comprehend and pick up more than some give them credit for. For this reason, I will have high standards for my children.

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#18 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 06:30 AM
 
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I am gonna copy and past this from the Daily Groove (worth signing up to! ):

(and ps - totally agree with what NatureMommy has said! - Well put in a very straight forward way!)

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

:: Why Kids Lie ::

PARENT: "Did you eat the banana that
I *told* you was for later?"

TODDLER: (with banana residue on face
and peel in hand) "No."

If children are innately good-natured, why do they
tell lies?

They lie *because* they're good-natured... and they're
doing their best to navigate the treacherous waters of
a "de-natured" culture.

The toddler is being good-natured when she honors her
hunger. It's not in her nature to believe in scarcity,
nor to override her Inner Guidance with arbitrary
limitations.

She's being good-natured when she meets her parent's
*expectation* of wanting the forbidden fruit.

She's being good-natured when she gives the answer
she believes the parent wants to hear. It's not in her
nature to invite disapproval and disconnection.

In other words, we inadvertently teach our kids to lie
when we participate in the Big Lie of our culture:
conditionality.


Next time your child lies to you, take it as a cue to
brush up on the Art of Unconditionality... and
appreciate your child's good nature. :-)
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#19 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 01:00 PM
 
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Personally, i would not allow my child to have that much control over me. She wil either tell me; or she can sit in her room until she does. Obviously, she has good enough reasoning skills and the knowledge to make up a lie. So, she will know why she is sitting in her room. You could tell her, "Okay, since you don't want to tell the truth, you can sit here in your room until you do. When you are ready to tell the truth, you may come out." If she still doesn't tell the truth, she loses all priveledges until she does. Life will get boring, won't it? Too bad, as I don't deal well with lying. I'd rather me give her a consequence for that action instead of her going out into the world and getting a more severe consequence, such as by a police officer. It is better to break the habit while they are young.

When she does tell the truth, i'll congradulate her: but I will still punnish her for lying, even if she eventually told the truth, as i'd like to send the message that lying is very unacceptable and will not be tollerated at all. Then, I'll lovingly discuss what could happen if a person lies. For mine, since I do read the Bible, I show them stories out of it about people who did what the child did, and show the consequences that individual suffered. I ask what the child thought of the story and what she thought of what the person did. Then, i ask her if she would want that to happen to her. She'd give her answer. And then, we'd discuss things until the child had an understanding of why it is not right.

Definitely have consequences, as it is unrealistic not to since they are out there in the real world: but be loving at the same time. Also, it is important to reason with the child and show them why it is not right so they'll better relate.

Yelling, hitting, screaming, and stuff like that is not constructive and could cause rebellion later. We don't like to be yelled or scremed at, so why do it to the children? That is what I ask myself when parents do that to their kids. If you feel like you will yel, as it can get frustrating, walk away.

If you don't want to punnish for lying, even after the child told the truth, you could always enforce silent treatment. Don't talk to the child until the truth is told. When the truth is told, reason things out lovingly letting your child know that lying is for losers--my mom always told me that--and you do not talk to liars. Whatever you do is your choice. Just thought I'd help.
Are you sure you are in the right forum? This is GENTLE Discipline. Giving the silent treatment to a 4 year old is just mean and pointless. Sending a child to his or her room until they "comply" with your orders just fosters disconnection. It is the same as spanking only without the violence. You are witholding your love and approval from your child until they do as you say. What is this teaching them? Try reading Raising Our Children, Raising OUrselves...or Playful Parenting. You will only make the problem WORSE by furthering the disconnection.

OP - this is a good opportunity to discuss with all your kids about their bodies and the sanctity of their personhoods. They violated the baby (whoever did it) by cutting her hair. Having a "time-in" to get them to think about how they would feel in that situation would be helpful. Try them to get them to play a game about personal body integrity so they can explore those feelings in a safe way. Maybe have a stuffed animal be the stand in and get them to explore boundaries that way. No one can touch the animal. Then when they touch it make a big playful deal out of it. I am still learning about Playful Parenting, so I am sure other mamas will be able to suggest a good game. I also think that all scissors/clippers are confiscated until they can be more responsible.

This would be an awful situation to be in and my nature makes me think I would not handle this well initially.

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#20 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 03:12 PM
 
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: I'm also worried about referring to a friends 2 year old as BAD for having a potty accident. And by sending said 2 year old to a room for 10 minutes. Waldorf PC, I'm sure you'll realize pretty quickly that things like that aren't endorsed here, and posts such as these will get some very negative responses. We have a wonderful sticky section with the purpose of this board.
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#21 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 03:15 PM
 
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Sorry, I forgot...


To the OP, OMG, how sad for the baby! I know I would be devastated! And especially since we are having similar issues with dd1 (3.5) wrt lying/changing the truth, and using objects for something other than what they are intended for. Like dry erase markers for face paint...: I am really really trying to limit my reaction, because I think her fearing my anger with her will cause her to sneak off more, but it is very hard. I feel for you!
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#22 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 03:44 PM
 
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I did this with my friend's daughter. She had lied and told me she had not pooped her pants when she did--she was potty training and is a very intelligent child and knows better. (It was not a question of having an accident because of not knowing better since she would go to the potty when she knew she was getting a treat. So there was no question about her abilities to use the bathroom. She was doing it to be bad.) She clearly had. I cleaned her up and I told her that she will not play for awhile--ten minutes--because she said she did not poop when she did. I simplified things appropriate for her age so she'd understand. When I put her in her room, I repeated again why she was there. She did not like it but that was too bad.

When I came back for her, I told her what she had done. Then, we practiced, so she'd know the difference between lying and the truth. Then, I asked her if she'd tell me "no" when she really did something and the answer was yes. She told me she would not. And I told her that if she lied again, she'd be in trouble again and everytime she did it thereafter. My friend agreed with me, as she is one also advocating to teach children good values from babyhood. Not to mention, she doesn't want her child to be hated by the rest of the community because she was a liar. Some bad habits are started when a child is young, and if a parent does nothing to break them, that parent sets the child up to fail. It is the loving thing to teach when young.

The first seven years of a child's life is when he learns the most and forms his personality. After age seven, the child is who he is. He is already molded, and it will be a lot harder to undo what was done. Much psychological literature states this fact, hence which is why a younger child learns much quicker and easier than an older one, such as the learning of a foreign language. Little ones can comprehend and pick up more than some give them credit for. For this reason, I will have high standards for my children.
It sounds like you have some really intense feelings around how we, as parents, "shape" our children. It is hard, sometimes, not to feel fear that something we do now will lead to our children being unhappy later in life because of the social order. Recognizing that my child is who he is, and that I should focus on being the person that *I* want to be, around him and everyone else, can help me escape that fear. The uncertainty of the outcome can be stress-inducing!

Do you feel like you might have some fear around this? Could there be something deeper around the lying issue, something that is specific to your fears, rather than your child?
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#23 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 04:20 PM
 
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Are you sure you are in the right forum? This is GENTLE Discipline. Giving the silent treatment to a 4 year old is just mean and pointless. Sending a child to his or her room until they "comply" with your orders just fosters disconnection. It is the same as spanking only without the violence. You are witholding your love and approval from your child until they do as you say. What is this teaching them? Try reading Raising Our Children, Raising OUrselves...or Playful Parenting. You will only make the problem WORSE by furthering the disconnection.

OP - this is a good opportunity to discuss with all your kids about their bodies and the sanctity of their personhoods. They violated the baby (whoever did it) by cutting her hair. Having a "time-in" to get them to think about how they would feel in that situation would be helpful. Try them to get them to play a game about personal body integrity so they can explore those feelings in a safe way. Maybe have a stuffed animal be the stand in and get them to explore boundaries that way. No one can touch the animal. Then when they touch it make a big playful deal out of it. I am still learning about Playful Parenting, so I am sure other mamas will be able to suggest a good game. I also think that all scissors/clippers are confiscated until they can be more responsible.

This would be an awful situation to be in and my nature makes me think I would not handle this well initially.



Thanks for the recommendation. Who are the books by? I'm interested in reading them. Also, do you know if they can be obtained in digital format? I'm blind, which is why I asked. I culd read print, but the only way that were possible is if I scanned the books to read them through speech output. Whatever medium I must use is fine: but, it would certainly be easier to read them in digital format.

I agree with you. I'm not sure I could deal with that situation of the cutting of the hair. I know it will come sooner or later.

Thanks again for the recommendations. I look forward to hearing from you.

I am married to my soul mate and best friend, and I am truly blessed.

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#24 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 04:23 PM
 
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It sounds like you have some really intense feelings around how we, as parents, "shape" our children. It is hard, sometimes, not to feel fear that something we do now will lead to our children being unhappy later in life because of the social order. Recognizing that my child is who he is, and that I should focus on being the person that *I* want to be, around him and everyone else, can help me escape that fear. The uncertainty of the outcome can be stress-inducing!

Do you feel like you might have some fear around this? Could there be something deeper around the lying issue, something that is specific to your fears, rather than your child?



Truthfully, I'm not really sure what envokes these feelings. I just could not bear any of my children to be hated or disliked by others all because they choose to do undesirable things, such as lying, stealing, being violent, and the like. No parent wants that. I want my children to be respectable people with good virtue. I want them to make a difference. Even if they don't, I want them to be known for a good character and a good name, as that means more than many other things.

I am married to my soul mate and best friend, and I am truly blessed.

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#25 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 04:50 PM
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It sounds like you do know that she cut her hair and the babies hair. When you know the answer to a question don't ask, tell her the consequence or remind her of the rule. Even if you think you won't react badly your dd really seems to think you are reacting harshly enough right now and it sounds like she is in no way willing to come clean and risk a worse reaction. It is really hard to back up and then say you know who did what and the consequence for it if you have given the option for the child to claim no knowledge of the problem. It also sometimes helps to just focus on the problem and the solution rather than who did it if you don't know who did it, badgering for the truth can make a resistant child clam up. If hair is being cut spontaneously then maybe the scissors need to go away for a while, if something gets broken then everybody needs to clean it up and use some of their money to pay for it, if someone is sad and has been hit then they need a hug. Taking the focus off of the child being the problem and putting it onto the problem being the problem can relieve some of that fear children feel when they know they have done something their parents disaprove of, and even if you have a mild reaction they may be feeling bad about themselves and assume that you strongly disaprove.
It is really common for kids to do this at least once. When dd cut her hair at school the teacher and I both told her that if it happened again she would lose the privilage of using the scissors. Yes, it is sad that the hair is gone and looks a little funny until it grows back, but this is really a very normal part of growing up and you will all move through it.

Waldorf PC: I think that La Leche League International records many of their books and they have a bunch of great gentle discipline type books, but they may be just on tape.
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#26 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 05:07 PM
 
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I find that when I make it about 'lying', it is much harder to get the truth. What is the lesson - that lying is bad or that telling the truth is good - ?

If your goal is to reinforce that telling the truth is desireable/good/whatever, you can focus on that by doing something silly, like singing a song about how much you wish you knew who the hair-fairy is that came and stole some of the baby's hair... make her laugh, take the fear of doing something wrong out of it.

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#27 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 05:17 PM
 
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It sounds like you do know that she cut her hair and the babies hair. When you know the answer to a question don't ask, tell her the consequence or remind her of the rule. Even if you think you won't react badly your dd really seems to think you are reacting harshly enough right now and it sounds like she is in no way willing to come clean and risk a worse reaction. It is really hard to back up and then say you know who did what and the consequence for it if you have given the option for the child to claim no knowledge of the problem. It also sometimes helps to just focus on the problem and the solution rather than who did it if you don't know who did it, badgering for the truth can make a resistant child clam up. If hair is being cut spontaneously then maybe the scissors need to go away for a while, if something gets broken then everybody needs to clean it up and use some of their money to pay for it, if someone is sad and has been hit then they need a hug. Taking the focus off of the child being the problem and putting it onto the problem being the problem can relieve some of that fear children feel when they know they have done something their parents disaprove of, and even if you have a mild reaction they may be feeling bad about themselves and assume that you strongly disaprove.
It is really common for kids to do this at least once. When dd cut her hair at school the teacher and I both told her that if it happened again she would lose the privilage of using the scissors. Yes, it is sad that the hair is gone and looks a little funny until it grows back, but this is really a very normal part of growing up and you will all move through it.

Waldorf PC: I think that La Leche League International records many of their books and they have a bunch of great gentle discipline type books, but they may be just on tape.


Thanks os much. Tape is ifne. I'll definitely look into it.

I am married to my soul mate and best friend, and I am truly blessed.

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#28 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 06:26 PM
 
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Thanks os much. Tape is ifne. I'll definitely look into it.
I remember someone on the consensual living forum mentioning a book club where you can get all kinds of stuff in audio, really inexpensively. Let me see if I can find it.
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#29 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 06:48 PM
 
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Remove your lie from the picture as well. What I mean is you know who cut the hair you don't need to ask. Just dirrectly deal. You cut your hair and the babies hair. You know the rules about using sissors with out premission. We are going to put up the sissors for a while and practice remembering the rules... (I'm being blunt here but you get the point).
A four year old still lives in the moment and to them words are magic if they say it wasn't me it is the untruth but not necessarly a lie not like we can lie. She is giving the answer that she feels will get the best approval from you. by dirrectly addressing the actual action and removing the lie you take away her ability to countinue with it.

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#30 of 36 Old 10-03-2008, 07:07 PM
 
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Personally, i would not allow my child to have that much control over me. She wil either tell me; or she can sit in her room until she does. Obviously, she has good enough reasoning skills and the knowledge to make up a lie. So, she will know why she is sitting in her room. You could tell her, "Okay, since you don't want to tell the truth, you can sit here in your room until you do. When you are ready to tell the truth, you may come out." If she still doesn't tell the truth, she loses all priveledges until she does. Life will get boring, won't it? Too bad, as I don't deal well with lying. I'd rather me give her a consequence for that action instead of her going out into the world and getting a more severe consequence, such as by a police officer. It is better to break the habit while they are young.

When she does tell the truth, i'll congradulate her: but I will still punnish her for lying, even if she eventually told the truth, as i'd like to send the message that lying is very unacceptable and will not be tollerated at all. Then, I'll lovingly discuss what could happen if a person lies. For mine, since I do read the Bible, I show them stories out of it about people who did what the child did, and show the consequences that individual suffered. I ask what the child thought of the story and what she thought of what the person did. Then, i ask her if she would want that to happen to her. She'd give her answer. And then, we'd discuss things until the child had an understanding of why it is not right.

Definitely have consequences, as it is unrealistic not to since they are out there in the real world: but be loving at the same time. Also, it is important to reason with the child and show them why it is not right so they'll better relate.

Yelling, hitting, screaming, and stuff like that is not constructive and could cause rebellion later. We don't like to be yelled or scremed at, so why do it to the children? That is what I ask myself when parents do that to their kids. If you feel like you will yel, as it can get frustrating, walk away.

If you don't want to punnish for lying, even after the child told the truth, you could always enforce silent treatment. Don't talk to the child until the truth is told. When the truth is told, reason things out lovingly letting your child know that lying is for losers--my mom always told me that--and you do not talk to liars. Whatever you do is your choice. Just thought I'd help.
This . . . is . . . really bad. When I was in highschool I misunderstood a rule, broke it, caused my father to be very upset, and because my mother was out of town, he gave me the silent treatment until she got back. My mother explained later that he didnt know how to punish me, and wanted to wait for her advice. Reasonable, right? No. Even as a 16 year old, this was the most hurt I have EVER been by my father or mother combined. I was so confused, lonely, and felt completely unloved.

I also feel like it is innapropriate to punish a child for lying. How do you explain to a child that it is okay to lie SOMETIMES (when the purpose suites the adult) but not others. Or even worse, that an adult can lie but not a child. Or are we just hoping the child never realizes that adults sometimes lie.

What if a child is too honest. "You smell bad" to a playmate. ????How do you explain that it isnt okay to be that honest with someone? When is the lesson learned? Is it by punishment that the lesson is learned, or just by gradual understanding?

Or maybe this is about family loyalty, and that you really want them to learn to never lie to YOU. Well . . . I can tell you right now that if I happened to tell a lie (which I did, lots of times, and would definitly not call myself a liar) and my mom said, "I want you to tell the truth, because liing is awful and makes me very mad." Then I darn well wont tell the truth after that!! She pretty much just told me that if I give in, she can go ahead and punish me for lying, AND the original crime. Kids have brains too!!

Anyways, as for the original post- I would forget the whole ordeal. I thought punishing the scissors was a good idea. Or hiding the scissors. Your kids didnt do this because they were being naughty, they were simply exploring! And i am really sorry your babies hair is gone. :-(
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