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-   -   breastmilk isn't vegan (https://www.mothering.com/forum/366-vegetarian-vegan/226536-breastmilk-isnt-vegan.html)

rastamama 12-14-2004 10:21 PM

: I need help.

This is the second time I have been told my daughter isn't vegan because she breastfeeds both times i just thought the person was an idiot and didn't really argue, but i guess i need a good comeback, because it seems to be a problem for people to understand. any good comebacks or quick responses to keep on hand would be great. what would you mamma's say?

tia

momto l&a 12-14-2004 10:25 PM

Your feeding your dd the very best food she could have and they think formula would be better so she can be vegan!?

no smart come backs just your right, they are idiots!

nak

BinahYeteirah 12-14-2004 10:30 PM

Maybe ask if the person thinks you are an animal (Like, "What!?! Are you saying I'm an animal!?"). If they say "no", then tell them that your dd isn't eating an "animal product". Maybe that's not a very good comeback since I can see people starting a discussion about whether humans are animals, etc. and that isn't really relevent. You give the bm freely, so obviously you are not infringing on "animal rights". People are weird.

Meiri 12-14-2004 10:44 PM

We are what we eat, correct? Therefor, since you are Vegan, your milk is vegan milk. No animal products went into it, only whatever you are eating.

Look at them like they have just sprouted another head and in all seriousness ask how feeding her something known to be less healthy is good when part of the point of being vegan is to be healthy.

Another possibility along the lines of what Binah Yeteirah said: Are you as the mother mammal not allowed to voluntarily feed your own baby your own milk? Look really confused when you ask them that one.

Alternatively, tell them they are idiots. Speak truth to stupidity.

iamama 12-14-2004 10:47 PM

Say,. I'm willing to risk it.

ETA: while rolling eyes

Simplicity 12-14-2004 11:28 PM

Honestly, I think anyone who says that is trying to get under your skin and get a reaction from you. I'd just look at them and say, "don't be an idiot". And that's the end of it.

And if they don't understand it, I'd probably educate them instead of coming back with a witty comeback. If they're willing to throw out something like that they better be willing to learn more.

tboroson 12-15-2004 03:46 AM

Are you being challenged by other vegans who are questioning your dedication, or by non-veg*n people who are looking for ways to mock you? Either way, fornicate 'em

moondiapers 12-15-2004 04:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rastamama
: I need help.

This is the second time I have been told my daughter isn't vegan because she breastfeeds both times i just thought the person was an idiot and didn't really argue, but i guess i need a good comeback, because it seems to be a problem for people to understand. any good comebacks or quick responses to keep on hand would be great. what would you mamma's say?

tia
I guess I've never thought of breastmilk as vegan because we are animals, therefore it is an animal product. However, it's the only animal product your child needs And once they have weaned they can be vegan.

Maybe a good comeback would be.."ofcourse she isn't vegan, she doesn't eat food yet"

I dunno, I've never encountered anyone that cared one way or another wether or not breastmilk is vegan.


-Heather

moondiapers 12-15-2004 04:06 AM

ooops, I just saw your child's age in your siggie so I guess my comeback won't work, sorry

mamajama 12-15-2004 04:27 AM

It sounds like more of a support and advocacy issue. It sounds to me like this person is undermining breastfeeding. My witty retort would be (dripping with disdain of course) "That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard." End of conversation.

amethystrse 12-15-2004 04:28 AM

: I have to be honest. I used to be one of those people who thought that and I still wonder it. I mean, I think of humans as animals in the sense that we're mamals and we're living creatures and whatnot. Any kind of milk, human or not, has animal proteins. But, there's one big difference...

Human milk is meant for humans! And as a mother it is totally 100% natural for you to give your child milk from your own body. The same with every other mamal on this planet. There are even vegan primates who give their babies bm. Does that mean that the animal who is naturally vegan is only so after they stop drinking their mother's milk?

IMO anyone who tries to make a stink about it is just trying to get on your nerves or something. Do you really care what people want to label you or your children? That's all it is. A label. A word. If someone wants to say your child isn't vegan because she drinks bm oh well. I personally would just roll my eyes and continue on. Why add fuel to a fire? Afterall, it's only semantics (sp?).

kaydee 12-15-2004 05:12 AM

Ugh. That's just stupid. : And I'd say so. I'd maybe also ask, "What's your point?" to whoever is saying that.

kama'aina mama 12-15-2004 06:00 AM

That's a pure distortion of a definition. It's like claiming that someone born without hands isn't a human because they don't have an opposable thumb.

Your milk is not a dairy product. You are not in any way exploited against your will to provide milk to your DD. It's a pointless and specious arguement. These people are trying to push your buttons. Don't let them.

amyandelle 12-15-2004 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meiri
We are what we eat, correct? Therefor, since you are Vegan, your milk is vegan milk. No animal products went into it, only whatever you are eating.

Look at them like they have just sprouted another head and in all seriousness ask how feeding her something known to be less healthy is good when part of the point of being vegan is to be healthy.

Another possibility along the lines of what Binah Yeteirah said: Are you as the mother mammal not allowed to voluntarily feed your own baby your own milk? Look really confused when you ask them that one.

Alternatively, tell them they are idiots. Speak truth to stupidity.
ITA!!!

BinahYeteirah 12-15-2004 07:13 AM

Tell the idiot that a vegan not breastfeeding because it "isn't vegan" is the equivalent of vegans trying to prevent animals from nursing their young or trying to stop predatory animals from hunting each other. It just doesn't make any sense. I can envision a future utopia in which all animals will be a peace with one another (the lion with the lamb, etc.), but I can't envision a utopia without breastfeeding.

I read in The Sunfood Diet that mother's breastmilk is the most karmically positive food available for humans. Even if one does agee with *all* the author's ideas (it is written from a vegan raw foodist's perspective), this point makes perfect sense to me. Breastmilk is not only given freely, it is given with love and contact that is nourishing in itself.

In any case, it is probably not worth your time to say any of this. Just say, "That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard," as mamajamma recommended.

captain optimism 12-15-2004 09:15 AM

I read in the Vegetarian Resource Group's Simply Vegan that ALL vegan babies should be breastfed as long as possible.

I had no idea there were people foolish enough to assert that breastmilk was not a part of a vegan diet.

love2all 12-15-2004 11:49 AM

OMG---

some people are idiots

QueenSheba'sMom 12-15-2004 11:58 AM

ITA, human milk is for human babies.

otherwise, animal milk is *absolutely* not vegan and is very exploitative.

but human milk is a natural bodily fluid that belongs to the baby. it's the extension of the transition from pregnancy. the milk belongs to baby as much as it does to you. it is a very essential part of the baby's further development.

when they're in utero they live off of you, too. is that vegan? puhhhleeeaaase.

you share a body for a while. even after they're born.

lanolin, like lansinoh, on the other hand, is not vegan.

root*children 12-15-2004 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
That's a pure distortion of a definition. It's like claiming that someone born without hands isn't a human because they don't have an opposable thumb.

Your milk is not a dairy product. You are not in any way exploited against your will to provide milk to your DD. It's a pointless and specious arguement. These people are trying to push your buttons. Don't let them.

sheesh. some people just wanna pick fights, huh? ideeeeeots.

rastamama 12-17-2004 09:55 PM

Thanks Mammas

for all the ideas, i have been challenged both by a vegan and a non vegan and i think both times they were trying to belittle me. trying to make me seem like a hypocryte or something, but i know i'm doing the best for my daughter so who cares about thier hangups right? just wanted a few ideas of snappy comebacks, i like " that is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard"

and thanks for the links!

Charles Baudelaire 12-17-2004 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rastamama
: I need help.

This is the second time I have been told my daughter isn't vegan because she breastfeeds both times i just thought the person was an idiot and didn't really argue, but i guess i need a good comeback, because it seems to be a problem for people to understand. any good comebacks or quick responses to keep on hand would be great. what would you mamma's say?

tia
How about, "Oh, guess you're right."

Whether you agree or don't, what are they going to come back with? Nothin' that I can think of.

Good for you, Tia. Basically, who cares what idiots say?

saritabeth 12-17-2004 10:01 PM

Im sorry, that is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I would just moo at them

FoxintheSnow 12-17-2004 10:02 PM

people say the dumbest things!

AngelBee 12-17-2004 10:02 PM

How dumb can people be?????????? Seriously, that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard!

root*children 12-18-2004 01:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by saritabeth
I would just moo at them
:LOL :LOL :LOL

PikkuMyy 12-18-2004 07:59 PM

Yes, this is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard from meat-eaters, although I haven't heard it myself. As for the vegan who was saying it to you, as her/him "What would you like me to do? Feed my baby on cow's milk?"

candiland 12-18-2004 08:22 PM

Actually, "vegans" do not eat OTHER species' meats and fluids. You can eat breastmilk, placenta, - heck, ass, for all I care! - and it's still vegan.

Charles Baudelaire 12-18-2004 09:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
Actually, "vegans" do not eat OTHER species' meats and fluids. You can eat breastmilk, placenta, - heck, ass, for all I care! - and it's still vegan.
MMMM. Ass!

shaper 12-18-2004 11:26 PM

nak

my dad is ALWAYS teasing w/the breastmilk vegan thing........ it gets so tired, really. but he has a real dorky sense of humour so i just tell him it wasnt funny the first time

melissa

Ruthla 12-20-2004 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
Actually, "vegans" do not eat OTHER species' meats and fluids. You can eat breastmilk, placenta, - heck, ass, for all I care! - and it's still vegan.
Are you saying that somebody could be a vegan cannibal?

Adeptus42 06-28-2014 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meiri (Post 2388669)
We are what we eat, correct? Therefor, since you are Vegan, your milk is vegan milk. No animal products went into it, only whatever you are eating.

You are what you eat.
...so
Free range cows eat a vegan diet, ergo eating free range cows is vegan.

Free range cows eat a vegan diet, ergo free range cow milk is vegan.

So if human milk is okay because the human is vegan, then bovine milk is okay so long as the bovine is vegan.

If you say that the difference is in consent, then milk from a socialized cow that likes being milked (think "family pet". Or family friend if you want) as a socializing activity is vegan.

For your argument to be logically consistent the following MUST apply.

A1: A foods vegan status is determined by the food being herbivorous or eating vegan food. (In this case ALL animals are vegan as all biochemical energy is originally derived from vegetable matter, see predation pyramid)

And/OR

A2: a food's vegan status is determined by consent. So a human's or cow's meat or byproduct can be vegan if the animal consents. (For example consensual cannibalism would be vegan)

If you reject either of these points, then you must logically also reject your arguments in favor of human milk being vegan.


Rather than all the mental gymnastics, excuses, and exceptions why not admit that while a vegan diet can sustain human life, it is incapable of growing it from infancy?

Why run from the obvious conclusion?

Adeptus42 06-28-2014 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthla (Post 2411954)
Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
Actually, "vegans" do not eat OTHER species' meats and fluids. You can eat breastmilk, placenta, - heck, ass, for all I care! - and it's still vegan. https://www.mothering.com/discussions...lies/smile.gif

Are you saying that somebody could be a vegan cannibal? https://www.mothering.com/discussions...eadscratch.gif

Yep. That is exactly what they are implying.

The poorly thought out mental gymnastics in an attempt to deny reality boggles the mind.

Breast milk is NOT vegan.

But, so what?

Eat vegan if you want, it's your choice. Just don't expect a growing child to be able to live on that kind of diet. Kids need vast ammounts of easily digsted whole proteins and fats. For infants in particular they need more than their little Tummys can fit. That's why we feed them so often.

As an adult you can live fine on a vegan diet because you don't need the protein and energy density (infact most of us could use a little less energy density). But a newborn baby is literally processing food almost 24/7 and even then needs the good rich high fat and protein milk.

Adeptus42 06-28-2014 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kama'aina mama (Post 2390192)
That's a pure distortion of a definition. It's like claiming that someone born without hands isn't a human because they don't have an opposable thumb.

Your milk is not a dairy product. You are not in any way exploited against your will to provide milk to your DD. It's a pointless and specious arguement. These people are trying to push your buttons. Don't let them.

Correct! Kinda.... Sorta... Not really

Human milk is not a dairy product according to websters.
"1 : a room, building, or establishment where milk is kept and butter or cheese is made 2 a : the department of farming or of a farm that is concerned with the production of milk, butter, and cheese b : a farm devoted to such production 3 : an establishment for the sale or distribution chiefly of milk and milk products"

Also my goat milk isn't a dairy product because it isn't on a farm.
My wife's cousin's cow's milk isn't a dairy product either because again it is just a pet.

So yes that point is true.

But that's not how we use the term "Dairy" in the modern anglosphere lexicons.

The real question isn't one hinged on the classification of the production facility, but rather one of the nature of the product itself.

Your response fails to address the matter at issue and merely obfuscates the point.


(Ps to the consent question see friendly cows and voluntary cannibalism.

P.p.s. I have known cows that literally get mad when you don't milk them and come find you to get milked. Cows are cute but can be very pushy)

Adeptus42 06-28-2014 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PikkuMyy (Post 2405603)
Yes, this is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard from meat-eaters, although I haven't heard it myself. As for the vegan who was saying it to you, as her/him "What would you like me to do? Feed my baby on cow's milk?"

Nope. Surely they are just looking to make you admit a vegan diet would kill the kid.

It's a childish reason to bug you, but it is what it is.

BlessedOne 06-30-2014 11:12 PM

To above poster-
"You are what you eat.
...so
Free range cows eat a vegan diet, ergo eating free range cows is vegan.

Free range cows eat a vegan diet, ergo free range cow milk is vegan."

Yes the COW is vegan....EATING the cow is not vegan. No one said that we are what we eat eats. If someone eats me, it doesn't mean that THEY are vegetarian. If that was true then most of us would be animal poop.....as that is what many plants "eat".

And in regards to "pushy cows"- That statement tells me that the mommy is not near the baby.... or she wouldn't be begging to be milked. Anyone that has nursed and been away from baby for a bit, is well aware of how it feels to be engorged and hurt. So if the cow is begging to be milked, maybe it shouldn't be separated from its child.

JamieCatheryn 07-01-2014 06:14 AM

Modern cows are bred to produce far more than the calf will drink, at top production you might see like 15x what a calf needs produced. They can adjust their production to demand, many family cows are milked once per day for 1-2 gallons if they are kept with calves, only making double the calf's need, but it takes adjustment and I'm not sure if a dairy breed cow can go much lower in production.

Human milk doesn't count as dairy for many reasons. It's about the easiest thing in the world for human babies to digest (whereas cow's milk is very hard), it counts as a clear liquid, medically. It's also given with the mother's complete consent and intention

Besides categories shouldn't be such a volatile and emotion filled debate if you are confident in your choices, let it roll off your back if somebody is stupid or rude.

sillysapling 07-01-2014 06:27 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Strictly speaking, it's true. Humans ARE animals. Human milk is an animal product. If they're suggesting that you should stop breastfeeding- they're idiots. But they may object to you using a term they don't agree she fits, which I can understand where they're coming from, but they're being ridiculously nitpicky.

I think this is ignoring the spirit of veganism. There's not really a single reason to be vegan that I've heard of that applies to breast milk. Ethics- your breastmilk is ethical. Health- breastmilk is far healthier than a "proper" vegan diet for a newborn. Animal protein intolerances- if the baby is thriving on breastmilk, clearly not a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlessedOne (Post 17744090)
And in regards to "pushy cows"- That statement tells me that the mommy is not near the baby.... or she wouldn't be begging to be milked. Anyone that has nursed and been away from baby for a bit, is well aware of how it feels to be engorged and hurt. So if the cow is begging to be milked, maybe it shouldn't be separated from its child.

It's actually worse than that. We've selectively bred cows to produce an obscene amount of milk. Even if cows were kept with their calves, it's unlikely the calves would be able to nurse enough to make the cow comfortable. (all the more reason to keep calves with the cow) We've really screwed cows over.

tadamsmar 07-02-2014 09:05 AM

You could use Zaphod's argument in this quote for Restaurant at the End of the Universe:

Quote:

'You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?' whispered
Trillian to Ford.

'Me?' said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, 'I don't mean
anything.'

'That's absolutely horrible,' exclaimed Arthur, 'the most revolting
thing I've ever heard.'

'What's the problem Earthman?' said Zaphod, now transfering his
attention to the animal's enormous rump.

'I just don't want to eat an animal that's standing there
inviting me to,' said Arthur, 'It's heartless.'

'Better than eating an animal that doesn't want to be
eaten,' said Zaphod.

'That's not the point,' Arthur protested. Then he thought about it
for a moment. 'Alright,' he said, 'maybe it is the point. I don't
care, I'm not going to think about it now. I'll just ... er ... I
think I'll just have a green salad,' he muttered.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~huuhilo/dna2.html

:wink:

BlessedOne 07-02-2014 04:32 PM

yes it is no surprise cows in a large scale industry are bred as frequent as possible (and possibly altered by hormones or steroids) to produce more milk, although the way the poster made it sound, was it was a very small scale farm situation. But even so, calf gestation is about 9 months and typically only one cow born at a time (twins are only about 3% of the time). So with all of that being said, a cow that is not overly bred, should be able to have a relatively normal nursing routine. But here is the problem....most large scale cow factories (and maybe even some smaller ones) will take the calf from the mother anywhere from immediately to the first couple of days. So therefore she can not nurse her young, but instead have her milk stolen, while her calf is on a powdered milk replacer.

Viola 07-02-2014 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adeptus42 (Post 17738106)
Breast milk is NOT vegan.

Breastmilk is vegan. The reason you should care is because there are certain people who, falling into this thinking that it isn't vegan because it is produced by the human animal, decide to feed their children soy formula instead, thinking somehow they aren't allowed to breastfeed. This makes no sense.

Do I care if it's vegan or not? No. But people try to make the irrational argument that if you're doing something that isn't vegan, like feeding your children your milk, then you can't be a vegan. That's like people telling me I'm not really a Christian because I don't believe the same things they do.


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