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#91 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 09:31 AM
 
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About parasites and health:

I think that some people are misunderstanding some things about the relationship of these two things.

I will use the analogy of fleas on dogs.

A dog which is less healthy may well carry a heavier flea load than another dog (even in the same household, same food, same routines) which is less healthy for whatever reason. This is pretty common knowledge.

But the fleas are not sucking toxins out of the dog's bloodstream, they are feeding upon the dog's actual blood, thereby further weakening the health of the dog. Enough fleas will actually kill an animal.

My dog has no fleas (I do not use any flea products). But if I were to take him to an area which was infested with fleas, he would undoubtedly come home with some fleas hitching a ride, regardless of his diet and his health. Then I would have to take steps to eradicate them.

The same goes for humans and parasites such as pinworms. They do not do a job, they are not there to cleanse toxins and then mysteriously vanish. If your child has never had them it is not an indication of superior health, it means that they never got any pinworm eggs in their mouth.

I think some of this confusion just may be because of the fact that in very extreme circumstances fly maggots are used to trim the edges of necrotic or infected wounds. I don't know whether this is ever used in humans, but in any case yes, in that case it is a 'worm' which is 'doing a job'.

But that is a closely monitored situation. That is not a wild infection, nor are wild fly larvae used. And it is not a parasitic issue at all.
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#92 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 10:09 AM
 
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but you realize that there are a large number of holistic vets that would not treat for fleas, but instead alter the nutrient intake of the animal and use things to optimize utilization of said nutrients, right? Just like with mosquitoes who won't feed on a person who is adequately nourished upping certain nutrients in the animals diet will discourage the fleas and leave them looking for alternate "hosts."
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#93 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 01:10 PM
 
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Where in the world are people getting the idea that mosquitoes avoid healthy people?
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#94 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 04:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaWindmill View Post
Where in the world are people getting the idea that mosquitoes avoid healthy people?
B-1 (thiamine) gives out an odor through the skin that repels mosquitoes, black flies and gnats. It is a nutrient that is rapidly used up in stress and that most people don't get enough of anyway. Anyone that has an adrenal, thyroid or hypothalamus issue will be especially depleted. It can also be rapidly depleted with alcoholism and is often not present in adequate amounts in cases of mental illness. I came across this years ago and even people IRL comment because me and my kids don't get bitten while everyone around us does. It's a useful bit of info. Feel free to ignore it.

http://www.scrumptiouslyrealnutritio...mins/vb1.shtml
http://www.answers.com/topic/thiamine
http://naturalmedicine.suite101.com/...mosquito_bites
http://www.highland-midge.co.uk/high...ge-science.htm
http://www.drugs.com/ppa/thiamin-hydrochloride-b1.html
http://www.chemeurope.com/lexikon/e/Thiamine/

Many people claim it hasn't been "clinically proven" but it's rare that vitamin therapy ever is for obvious reasons. There is a good amount of anecdotal evidence. The proof in in the pudding. You can keep your repellent, I'll keep my nutrients.

As with most anything proper nourishment can protect against so much.
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#95 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 04:40 PM
 
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My holistic MD told me the same thing, and it works! I was shocked. I used to get eaten alive and for the past few years I haven't been touched though I am out all the time. I am often skeptical of things like this, but I'm glad I tried it.
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#96 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 06:47 PM
 
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Joel V. Weinstock, M.D.
Professor of Medicine
Immunology
Tufts University, School of Graduate Biomedical Sciences

The major hypothesis of one of our projects is that modern day lack of exposure to intestinal helminths is an important factor contributing to the growth of IBD. It is believed that childhood exposure to helminths modulates the mucosal immune system, which affords this protection."
http://www.tufts.edu/sackler/immunol...ock/index.html

Basically, the "parasites" are beneficial.

"These worms, or helminths, have a paradoxical effect on the host. Rather than induce inflammation, which is the body’s typical response to invasion, the intruders calm the host immune system."

He references this notion “the hygiene hypothesis”: as improved hygiene reduced exposure to certain infectious agents, the immune system began malfunctioning.

If eliminating worms led to an increase in disease, could re-introducing worms actually treat these diseases? In mice, the answer was yes. Worms were used to “inoculate” against mouse asthma, Type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis and I.B.D.

And this is PROFOUND:
In 2005, he published results from two human studies. After ingesting 2,500 microscopic T. suis eggs at 3-week intervals for 24 weeks, 23 of 29 Crohn’s patients responded positively.(Crohn’s disease belongs to the I.B.D. family, which also includes ulcerative colitis.)

Twenty-one went into complete remission. In the second study, 13 of 30 ulcerative colitis patients improved compared with 4 in the 24-person placebo group.


Scientists around the world are intrigued. Several large studies are under way. Trials using T. suis eggs on patients with multiple sclerosis, Crohn’s and hay fever are beginning in the United States, Australia and Denmark, respectively. In Germany, scientists are planning studies on asthma and food allergies. Other European scientists, meanwhile, plan to replicate many of these experiments with Necator americanus, a human hookworm.

Bottom line: You are not just your genetic self. You are a community of interacting organisms. This You ecosystem includes the bacteria that outnumber your genetic cells by 10 to 1, various fungi, viruses and just maybe a few parasites as well. Disturb or remove any key player, and the whole system can come unbalanced.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/ma...l?ref=magazine

Here are other bioimmunological researchers investigating these concerns. http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/healt...ife/1854.shtml

Links to additional research abstracts regarding intestinal health of helminth presence. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17343085?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez. Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.P ubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles& logdbfrom=pubmed

Nature Clinical Practice Gastroenterology & Hepatology: http://www.nature.com/ncpgasthep/jou...sthep0087.html

SUMMARY:
There is now substantial human epidemiological data and several animal studies supporting the hypothesis that helminths protect the host from immunological disease.

(source, British Medical Journal. -you have to register on the site to read the study which includes about 56 references; registration is free): http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/53/1/7


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#97 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 06:49 PM
 
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I would be all for anything that is safe and provides relief for Crohn's patients. I feel really bad for people with Crohn's.
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#98 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 07:49 PM
 
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I have a vague memory of pooping out a long brown worm during harvest one year (I would guess harvest...I remember the stubble around me). I picked it up and showed it to my mom (which just makes me want to go wash my hands again and shudder uncontrollably, nearly 40 years later). She sort of freaked out, had me put it in a mason jar and told dad she was taking me to the doctor. (Probably why I remember it...you don't stop harvest for ANYTHING usually).

I can't remember anything past that...don't remember taking medicine or anything, although I might have, just that mom came back and told me that she was proud of me for showing it to her and to always tell her if weird things like that happen.

Anybody have a clue what the heck that thing was? I remember it being bigger than an earthworm and sort of poop color. lol. I lived on a farm, but I think I was old enough that we didn't have livestock anymore.

Mom to 10yo Autistic Wonder Boy and 6yo Inquisitive Fireball Girl . December birthdays.

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#99 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 08:02 PM
 
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What an interesting thread... I never realized that there could be so much to disagree on concerning pinworms.

For those who believe that the worms can be beneficial (I believe you are probably right) how do you recommend people deal with the extreme discomfort they can cause? I rarely medicate my kids for anything, but I bought pin-x the last time we went through this because I was so desperate.

I really hate giving them the med because I just don't know what else it's killing in their bodies, but wow, we just couldn't deal with it.

JenniferZ, could it have been a roundworm? Just guessing.

Keri, wife to Tony, mom to five DDs: M ('96), S('01), E('04), A('07) and J('10);
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#100 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 08:40 PM
 
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Haven't been there; and with children, I'd probably be more aggressive with comfort measures than with myself. It is easier for adults to choose to tolerate something, perhaps.

Topical xylocaine, lavender essential oil, coconut oil, butter, other oil based lubrication for comfort, witch hazel, apple cider vinegar, Epsom salt baths, oatmeal baths, apis cream, calendula ointment, Aloe Vera mixed with olive oil, tea tree oil, cornstarch, baking soda paste, would be my best bets.

Perhaps, even some topical benedryl for intense itching.

Classical homeopathy.


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#101 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 08:50 PM
 
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WuWei

I read that study maybe two years ago and I remember feeling very validated by it. I do think parasites are beneficial for alot of reasons. Thanks for bringing that to the table. There are a couple of other MD's in the heads of their departments at other Universities that have the same stance.
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#102 of 261 Old 10-18-2008, 08:54 PM
 
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twighkight, could you link me to those studies? I have never heard of parasites being beneficial. PM is cool, too.
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#103 of 261 Old 10-19-2008, 12:31 AM
 
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I'm really enjoying this discussion.

You know, I think one of the reasons my son go the worms is that I've always believed it's good for him to be exposed to germs, so he touches everything and hardly anything has grossed me out until the pinworm (ok the day he leapt out of his subway seat, grabbed a bead off the dirty subway floor and popped it in his mouth, that did gross me out).

And I enjoyed all the links to Weinstock's work using T. sius worm to treat IBD. I couldn't open 2 of the links, but all the other were links to Weinstock's research.

But in one of the articles, I think it was the NY times article, they mention that deworming was begun b/c parasites can also have negative consequences, such as anemia for some parasites, and in extreme cases of pinworm - appendicitis. They also said that Weinstock chose the particular parasite used in the study because it does not cause side effects in pig farmers. They did not use pinworms in the studies for the links I opened.

So my son seems to be heavily infested. Lots of worms coming out in his poop. And he's starting to complain of severe itching over the past few days. Didn't go away with Vermox. His diet, as I said before, is already very good except for his recent addition of a bit of sweetener (and I'm talking a tiny amt of unrefined cane sugar, some agave and some raw honey). Way way less than even your typical healthy toddler eats.

So maybe the pinworms are going to help him with his dairy and gluten allergies? Or maybe he just ate a hell of a lot of eggs one day (we live in a big, very dirty city).
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#104 of 261 Old 10-19-2008, 12:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FancyD View Post
twighkight, could you link me to those studies? I have never heard of parasites being beneficial. PM is cool, too.
The study to which she is referring is posted one page back. https://www.mothering.com/discussions...4&postcount=99


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#105 of 261 Old 10-19-2008, 01:59 AM
 
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I'm shocked by the number of posters saying that they wouldn't treat for pinworms or would let them run their course.

DD had them once and was miserable until they were gone.

Would you want this on your anus?:

http://abyssaldepths.files.wordpress...is-pinworm.jpg

Justine, wife to DH :cop:, mom to DS(14) :, DD(13) and DS(8)
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#106 of 261 Old 10-19-2008, 02:18 AM
 
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WARNING...VERY GRAPHIC PICTURE...BEWARE

Here's what an ascaris (roundworm) infection looks like:

http://curezone.com/image_gallery/pa...scaris/003.jpg



Justine, wife to DH :cop:, mom to DS(14) :, DD(13) and DS(8)
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#107 of 261 Old 10-19-2008, 02:19 AM
 
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holy crap!

DS and I just had pin worms. I treated them ASAP - they hurt like hell.
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#108 of 261 Old 10-19-2008, 04:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
but you realize that there are a large number of holistic vets that would not treat for fleas, but instead alter the nutrient intake of the animal and use things to optimize utilization of said nutrients, right? Just like with mosquitoes who won't feed on a person who is adequately nourished upping certain nutrients in the animals diet will discourage the fleas and leave them looking for alternate "hosts."
Fleas and mosquitoes have never touched me. I mean, yes I've gotten the infrequent bites, but literally fleas jump on me and leap off immediately. Same with mosquitoes. I've watched them land on me, sort of walk all around looking for a tasty spot or whatever, then fly away. They almost never bite me. This has been true throughout my entire life, during times when I would eat once every two or three days, times when I have eaten nothing at all refined and didn't step foot in a grocery store for years, and all in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaWindmill View Post
Where in the world are people getting the idea that mosquitoes avoid healthy people?
:

Quote:
Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
I came across this years ago and even people IRL comment because me and my kids don't get bitten while everyone around us does. It's a useful bit of info. Feel free to ignore it.
See above. Even if there isn't another host near me, they will not bite me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaWindmill View Post
I would be all for anything that is safe and provides relief for Crohn's patients. I feel really bad for people with Crohn's.
I almost certainly have Crohn's.

I also have an autoimmune disorder called Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia, and most likely (as of recently) fibromyalgia.

I had pinworms as a child.

And if it were as simple as ill health = parasite attraction, I would certainly not be having fleas and mosquitoes turning up their noses at me constantly. I was very healthy until a very few years ago. For years, I did not touch anything at all that was refined, I made my own bread and granola daily, I had goats for milk, chickens for eggs, and rabbits for meat. And a large organic garden. And my own organic fruit trees. Nothing has affected my repulsion factor to said parasites, not my diet, not my health.

So, while I do know that there is a connection there, it is not black and white. There are many other factors at play.
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#109 of 261 Old 10-22-2008, 12:20 AM
 
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#110 of 261 Old 11-04-2008, 09:43 AM
 
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Thanks for all of the information. My dd has pinworms again - this is her 3x since February.

It makes me feel better to read that she isn't the only one.
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#111 of 261 Old 11-07-2008, 01:36 AM
 
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#112 of 261 Old 11-07-2008, 08:51 AM
 
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We used grated carrot and pumpkin seeds for pinworms. Take an organic carrot, peel it and grate it using the fine part of your grater. Have your kids eat that on an empty stomach every morning, along with a handful of raw pumpkin seeds...every morning without fail. When we went through this, it became routine for months just to be sure.
You seem very distraught and I'm sorry to tell you this but it's like the OTC meds won't work. If you want to go the drug route, get a prescription. I know you said finances are tight but you're throwing away your money on Pin-x.
Yes, it's possible for pimworms to re-infest again and again but the key is to also strengthen your overall immune systems so you are not susceptible
Good luck Pinworms suck.
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#113 of 261 Old 11-08-2008, 02:03 AM
 
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So, our pinworms I think are back (or they never left). DS was scratching his bottom tonight and saying it was really really itchy.

We did 2 doses of mebendazole 2 wks apart. It's not quite 2 wks since the last dose.

We also did raw garlic, carrots and pumpkin seeds. I did it for 2 wks and DS did for a few days and then he wouldn't do it anymore. i was suprised he did the raw garlic at all.

We washed sheets, clothes, towels daily for one week, then frequently since then. Bathed daily for about 10 days. Bathed our dog daily and vaccumed daily for a week. We were up til 2am every morning cleaning to get rid of eggs. Cleaned all the toys. Cut nails. Washed hands, kept fingers out of mouths.

I don't know what more we could do. Our diets are very good.

I did try the black walnut tincture for a while but didn't feel like it was working. Did anybody successfully use herbs and if so how long did it take.

Oh and I never figured out which cleaners besides bleach will kill the eggs. We used diluted apple cider vinegar and putting some things in the sunlight.

Can anyone who's successfully dealt with stubborn pinworms please tell me exactly what you did?

Thank you.
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#114 of 261 Old 11-08-2008, 03:18 AM
 
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really, honestly......diatomaceous earth works (food grade) we're still pinworm free....

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
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#115 of 261 Old 11-08-2008, 01:00 PM
 
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really, honestly......diatomaceous earth works (food grade) we're still pinworm free....
We've dealt with stubborn pinworms before, and finally prevailed after lots of work and time, but if we get them again this will be the first thing I try. I'm ordering some to have on hand for our chickens anyway.

Good luck.

Keri, wife to Tony, mom to five DDs: M ('96), S('01), E('04), A('07) and J('10);
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#116 of 261 Old 11-09-2008, 08:18 AM
 
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I just added to our food. Anything that was liquidy enough to hide it on got some added.....and I baked it into our bread. It took about 2 weeks for me to feel confident enough to stop....and that was plenty of time to have cleaned the house top to bottome twice.

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
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#117 of 261 Old 11-09-2008, 08:58 AM
 
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Ugggh :Puke: NO way on this earth would I not treat worms of any kind. They are parasites and serve no purpose other than to make life miserable for the carrier.

I need to take stool samples in on the kids.

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#118 of 261 Old 11-09-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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First off, I want to say that I haven't yet tried diatomaceous earth because I didn't know about it when we had our last bout with pinworms. I'm sure it works wonders and I will try it next time...crossing my fingers that there is no next time.

Here is my approach. I give more than two doses of mebendazole (Vermox). I give at least 4 doses--all two weeks apart. All the medical information I have read says that if 2 doses don't work, then treat again. This means 4 doses in all. I say why not just do them all the first time. I have not found any evidence that this is harmful. Also, I have given my under two year old half a dose. This is what my doctor recommended. I order my mebendazole online from an overseas provider.

Also, I have stopped the cleaning madness. It can make you absolutely batty. I decided for my sanity and that of my family to stop my mission of pinworm egg killing. Of course, I did not stop the basics of sheet changing on the day of treatment, vacuuming (not obsessive), and showering everyone daily. I was going mad cleaning every surface and crevice. I realized that there was no way I was going to get them all. I had even bought a nano ultraviolet light scanner to go over every surface with. I was a crazy lady with a wand.

Something else I did and will do again is to put zinc oxide cream (desitin) on the kids' bottoms before bed every night. I think this keeps the worms from laying their eggs. It also helps with the itching.

I found this blog with lots of comments re: pinworms. It is interesting reading.
http://imperfectmommy.com/?p=152#more-152

I just remembered to add this info about taking mebendazole while breastfeeding. After reading this, I felt fine about taking it a few times while nursing. http://66.230.33.248/discus/messages...tml?1127829081
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#119 of 261 Old 11-09-2008, 06:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ginny-mommy View Post

Also, I have stopped the cleaning madness. It can make you absolutely batty. I decided for my sanity and that of my family to stop my mission of pinworm egg killing. Of course, I did not stop the basics of sheet changing on the day of treatment, vacuuming (not obsessive), and showering everyone daily. I was going mad cleaning every surface and crevice. I realized that there was no way I was going to get them all. I had even bought a nano ultraviolet light scanner to go over every surface with. I was a crazy lady with a wand.

Something else I did and will do again is to put zinc oxide cream (desitin) on the kids' bottoms before bed every night. I think this keeps the worms from laying their eggs. It also helps with the itching.
http://66.230.33.248/discus/messages...tml?1127829081
ITA with both of these. One of the side benefits of dealing with this over and over is you eventually learn to relax and focus your efforts where they're likely to do the most good.

Keri, wife to Tony, mom to five DDs: M ('96), S('01), E('04), A('07) and J('10);
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#120 of 261 Old 11-26-2008, 06:56 PM
 
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if a pregnant mother has pinworms, does she really need to wait till after the birth? If so, should some family members get treated sooner?

Won't baby get them during the birthing process?

Online it says to treat the whole family at the same time...Do you all agree with this? Or is it just necessary to treat the person who is suspected of having the pinworms?

Do you keep kids out of school (no classes, playdates, etc) for that 2-4 week period?

Liora. Best way to reach me is FACEBOOK, search for "LioraP2". Jewish and Frum In Beijing, Mom of Three (mother of 3: #1 was vaccine injured at age 2m later dx with PDD-NOS, healed in 3 years with biomed. #2 unvaxed and healthy boy. #3 unvaxed amazing girl with Down syndrome using Targeted Nutritional Intervention (TNI) since infancy)
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