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#1 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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How much training..

...do paediatricians get in med school on vaccines?

I was reading this blog post titled- Vaccine Injury is “Rare”! http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/vaccine-injury-rare/

and the author says that their paediatrician friends say:

Quote:
that they are given one day of training on vaccines in medical school. On that day, they learn how to give injections, not what is in them. They are also told that to question the effectiveness of vaccines among their colleagues is the equivalent of heresy.
So does anyone have info on how long and how in depth the training in med school is on vaccines?
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#2 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 10:36 AM
 
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I have heard many things over the years, but the most consistent is that med students get 1-2 weeks and all of the material is industry generated, in other words, from the vaccine companies themselves. I doubt that they are ever taught to recognize or treat a case of measles, mumps, rubella, flu, chicken pox, or even the flu. They are taught that the vaccines have taken care of these diseases.

I am quite sure that doctors are never taught to recognize vaccine reaction, damage, or injury.

A footnote to this is that nutrition is an elective course in most American medical schools. When the course is taken the curriculum is underwritten by the Kroc Foundation. So there you are.
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"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.

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#3 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks applejuice.

Funny though that course curriculum outlines never show up in print anywhere especially these forums. We are told that the only opinion we should have of vaccines is that of these mainstream paediatricians but I would like to know exactly what they are being taught and how long it takes. Seems pretty vague.
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#4 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 11:33 AM
 
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My information comes from lectures with Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, the self-named Medical Heretic.

He was a medical student and a medical school professor. He should know.

Medical and pharmaceutical professionals have told me that immunology is studied quite extensively in med school.

I am sure it is.

"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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#5 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 02:35 PM
 
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Nutrition should be the cornerstone of a medical education. While drugs can be a useful tool if absolutely necessary, there is no substitute for good nutrition.

If most doctors receive their education at approved schools, they are only learning what they are taught. Now, if that education is incorrect in some way, then the doctors are going to learn and practice that incorrect information. This is why there is not a gigantic conspiracy of thousands of evil doctors.....it is a matter of thousands of nice doctors practicing bad medicine, educated with incorrect info. (I have my own theories on why that info is incorrect, but that is for another thread) Basically, the doctors are just doing what they were taught. And it's not good enough.

 
 
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#6 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 02:46 PM
 
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it is a matter of thousands of nice doctors practicing bad medicine, educated with incorrect info.
Yes.

Dr. Mendelsohn said that when he hears of a family whose young adult child has been admitted to medical school, he hesitates and did not know whether to offer congratulations or condolences - BECAUSE medical schools take the most intelligent, conscientious young people and turns them into doctors - and that is not a good thing.

He used the word doctor as in "he doctored up the records". IOW , something nefarious.

And yes, one of my sisters is a doctor.
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"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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#7 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 03:35 PM
 
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I looked and couldn't find info on that. I do not have a ped in my family but I do have an infectious disease and general practitioner in my family.. anyway, I asked. They have to learn a little of everything over the years and they focus on the most popular things going on. Medical schools get lots of money from the pharmaceuticals so it makes sense they learn what the "mainstream" want them to learn- starting with medicine.
I saw another post on here that said they have 900+ hours of training before hitting the floor.. just because they are learning how things work and how to apply their knowledge does not mean that 900 hours is spent on VPD's. Plus, no one can count their undergrad degree as "time in" because anyone of us who graduated with a BS degree went through much of the same studies and aren't well versed on the vaccine topic from popping out of college. In nursing school, they get a whole page and a half in their fundamental text and that is IT. Perhaps BSN nurses may get an extra half a page. They expect nurses to educate the public but how? Nurses end up preaching their beliefs and won't know the answers to the serious questions if you ask- yet they are the ones injecting most of the time! Scary to think medical assistants probably get less training than that.
Anyway, back to the doctor topic... I really want to know. They take classes in infectious disease but there are over 200+ diseases to study with new drug resistant infections coming out all the time. They probably focus on things like Hospital acquired infections (MRSA ect), HIV/AIDS, colds, flu, STD's, strep, bronchitis, asthma, COPD, cancer, sepsis, kidney failure, heart disease, pneumonia and other common diseases. Their "rounds" in the hospital do not give them a great chance of seeing a true VPD since the cases aren't there. Mainstream news has even said that doctor's do not know how to diagnose VPD's anymore- well, if they studied it THAT well, and spent 900+ hours on it before they even got to the floor (and have over 13000 hours of training in when they graduate), why not?
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#8 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by beckybird View Post

If most doctors receive their education at approved schools, they are only learning what they are taught. Now, if that education is incorrect in some way, then the doctors are going to learn and practice that incorrect information. This is why there is not a gigantic conspiracy of thousands of evil doctors.....it is a matter of thousands of nice doctors practicing bad medicine, educated with incorrect info. (I have my own theories on why that info is incorrect, but that is for another thread) Basically, the doctors are just doing what they were taught. And it's not good enough.
Exactly!

I know the provaxxers love to trot out the question "is everyone in on the conspiracy?" but it doesn't take a conspiracy. Just accepted belief that is wrong, wrong, wrong.
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#9 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 06:47 PM
 
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Pediatricians are trained from undergraduate biology through medical school immunology on how the immune system works and how vaccinations work, and on in medical school clerkships on what vaccines are recommended when and why, and in further practice as residents in delivering recommended vaccinations as part of routine preventive care. Doctors do not in general perform the actual injections, because giving prescribed injections is a part of nursing care. However your doctor is much more likely to be able to discuss with you how vaccines work and why they are recommended, and what are the risks vs. the benefits, than whoever might be giving the injection.

Recognizing measles and mumps and chickenpox and pertussis and flu are all well and fully taught in med school still. I know what's a morbiliform rash, the three c's of the prodrome, and a koplik spot, from my LCMe approved medical education...do you?
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#10 of 46 Old 02-09-2015, 07:54 PM
 
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I know what's a morbiliform rash, the three c's of the prodrome, and a koplik spot, from my LCMe approved medical education...do you?
Yes. I do. I know that from caring for children with measles. It is called, "first hand experience". I know how to treat and comfort a child with this condition, which many doctors do not.

Why did the intern who attended my son, niece, and nephew not know that? Or did she think I was too stupid to understand?

Do medical students ever learn anything about, "adverse events following vaccination", and how to recognize these events? Or are they told that these events are so rare that they will never see one in their practice?

Quote:
Pediatricians are trained from undergraduate biology through medical school immunology on how the immune system works and how vaccinations work, and on in medical school clerkships on what vaccines are recommended when and why, and in further practice as residents in delivering recommended vaccinations as part of routine preventive care.
That may be ideal, however a degree in the science field is not required for admission to medical school, so undergrad bio classes and labs may not be a requirement either.
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"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.

Last edited by applejuice; 02-09-2015 at 08:11 PM.
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#11 of 46 Old 02-10-2015, 05:53 AM
 
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I have seen doctors on TV talking about thimerosol having been removed from MMR. Somehow that fueled my doubts about medical education on vaccinations...
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#12 of 46 Old 02-10-2015, 06:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

Do medical students ever learn anything about, "adverse events following vaccination", and how to recognize these events? Or are they told that these events are so rare that they will never see one in their practice?

That may be ideal, however a degree in the science field is not required for admission to medical school, so undergrad bio classes and labs may not be a requirement either.
THAT is the issue here. Sure they may know what spots look like, (as I do from textbooks as I have no real life experience yet), but are they taught about adverse effects? How many stories from the parents of vaccine damaged children state that doctor's denied a reaction, didn't even consider it as an option or attributed it to the kid being dramatic (gardasil for example). I remember a bulletin coming out for gardasil that said many young girls are fainting from seeing the needle.. really? Ok... maybe some. Other reactions (different vaccines) such as headaches, fevers, sore spots, rashes, seizures, screaming for hours-- all coincidence I guess. My husband had a reaction as a child- you know what his doctor did? Instead of being smart enough to understand a reaction, they continued to give him his shots but lessened the amount given over several visits. But yes, no way can a pharmaceutical company get it wrong.. there are NO examples in history showing that right- especially with drugs? No disabled children missing limbs or anything...
And again, as far as undergrad work- learning about the cell wall and animal kingdom does not make you a pro at understanding vaccines or diseases... I'm positive my bio class never discussed measles, polio, whooping cough ect... anatomy and physiology didn't either.. chemistry- nope... maybe microbio but it wasn't in detail.. if they did address them, it was more focused on viruses and bacteria and their susceptibility to drugs and environment in general.
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I have great respect for the amount of studying and the knowledge pediatricians have, but their field covers a wide range and they can't know everything about everything!

In my personal experience, the older Peds and the ones who have children themselves are more knowledgeable, but still not infallible.

I had some great conversations with our former ped regarding the ridiculousness of the newborn hepB shot and the efficacy of the acellular pertussis vaccine. He was an invaluable resource for intact care and helped fend off over zealous residents who wanted to circumcise my son after a febrile seizure. (Well since we can't figure out what caused the fever, it must be his penis. Let's cut it! Turned out to be the croup a few days later. *eye roll*) all that and he gave HORRIBLE breastfeeding advice and he was completely unsupportive of us seeking testing and treatment for our developmentally disabled son. (He certainly does seem to be overly energetic, but boys will be boys..)

Anyway, I'm ranting now, but I'm trying to say that pediatricians are a fabulous resource and I appreciate them, but their advice is not to be worshipped and I don't think it is unreasonable to question them.
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Q. What do you call the person who graduates last in their medical school class?
A. You call him/her, "Doctor".

The specialities that the bottom ten percent of medical students go for - years ago I was told it was obstetrics and pediatrics.

I did have a very good pediatrician. I never planned to ever take my children to one. He just happened to be very good. I was just lucky. He was a bonus. And he did NOT go to medical school, he went to osteopathic school.

I would go to a grandmother first before going to a pediatrician.
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Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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Mendelsohn graduated from medical school in 1951! I wouldn't take his account as evidence of what a medical school course is like today. But in this case I think he's correct - I don't remember what teaching we got about vaccines in medical school, but the very fact that I don't remember means that it probably wasn't that much. That's the way medical school works - you learn the basics about everything, and you've got a very wide curriculum to cover, so most specific points are only going to get a relatively small amount of time. That's why medical school is only the beginning - doctors have years of postgraduate training in whatever their speciality is, so asking how much time we get on a subject at medical school isn't really giving the whole story.

We do learn about VPDs. The problem with diagnosing them is that anything you see rarely is going to be harder to diagnose, and, thanks to vaccines, we're seeing these illnesses a lot more rarely. It's a good problem to have; I hope we have it with more and more illnesses as time goes by. But, yes, it is a practical issue, and it's important to keep knowledge up to date on the rare things as well as the common things.We also learn about vaccine reactions.

As for the people making vaccine policy, they aren't new graduates; they've got years of postgraduate training in their field. I'd far rather trust their judgement on vaccine issues than that of someone without medical training and with an anti-vaccine agenda to push.
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What is an anti-vaccine agenda? What goals do you think are being pursued by the anti-vaccine movement in the US and worldwide?
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What is an anti-vaccine agenda? What goals do you think are being pursued by the anti-vaccine movement in the US and worldwide?
Yes, this is my question as well. I don't see any concerted effort by anyone to convince people not to vaccinate.

I am not 'anti-vaccine,' nor even a 'vaccine critic.' I AM anti-compulsory medical intervention, anti-one-size-fits-all medical treatment, and also anti-'sign to indicate that you are giving informed consent but if you decide to forgo this treatment based on the information on this paper we are asking you to sign, you will be labeled an irrational lunatic' -- and I am really over the current rhetoric around this issue!
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Yes, this is my question as well. I don't see any concerted effort by anyone to convince people not to vaccinate.

I am not 'anti-vaccine,' nor even a 'vaccine critic.' I AM anti-compulsory medical intervention, anti-one-size-fits-all medical treatment, and also anti-'sign to indicate that you are giving informed consent but if you decide to forgo this treatment based on the information on this paper we are asking you to sign, you will be labeled an irrational lunatic' -- and I am really over the current rhetoric around this issue!
Those positions will be translated into "pro-infectious disease".
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And the newest--if you are an "anti-vaxxer", that means you hate all autistic people!
(Where does that put the parents of autistic children who stopped vaccinating?)

 
 
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Yes, and of course we MUST settle for "fully vaccinated and autistic is better than not vaccinated and potentially not autistic because you all hate autistic folks and wish we didn't exist."

Um, OK? That's quite the stretch, but again, so is the whole militant pro-vax movement.

Yeah, please DO show me a concerted effort to change the minds (even if via forced anti-human rights legislation) of people vaccinating, and make their choices impossible to obtain...

Oh wait, there isn't one. The only movement like THAT is the virulent pro-vax movement, led by their commander in chief: Offit.
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#21 of 46 Old 02-11-2015, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And the newest--if you are an "anti-vaxxer", that means you hate all autistic people!
(Where does that put the parents of autistic children who stopped vaccinating?)
Obviously they hate their children too!
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#22 of 46 Old 02-11-2015, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Q. What do you call the person who graduates last in their medical school class?
A. You call him/her, "Doctor".
The first time I heard a variation of that joke it was from a doctor.
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#23 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 10:04 AM
 
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What is an anti-vaccine agenda? What goals do you think are being pursued by the anti-vaccine movement in the US and worldwide?
Sorry I haven't replied to this before now – have been pretty busy, so took a bit of time off from the forums.


What I meant here by 'anti-vaccine agenda' is a fundamental distrust of vaccines that I see a lot in vaccine debates. Anti-vaxxers (for want of a better term – if you can think of a different term for this kind of attitude towards vaccination then fire ahead, I'm listening) have a deep-rooted immovable conviction that vaccines are terribly harmful in some way. It's often not clear which way, so you get a lot of shifting of the prevailing claim (once it was the DPT that was the bad guy, then it was the MMR, then it was mercury in vaccines, now it's other vaccine ingredients – the one consistent feature is that there is always some way in which vaccines are being blamed for something scary) but they are absolutely certain that, in some way, vaccines are ultimately going to turn out to have dire consequences.


For people with this sort of attitude, it just doesn't matter what the evidence shows or what people on the pro-vaccine side do – everything is interpreted through this filter of 'Vaccines are harmful'. There is literally no amount of research that can convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter how many studies get done, or how reassuring the findings are, or how well the risk-benefit profile of vaccines compares to that of the VPDs... there is simply nothing that would ever get these people to a point of feeling comfortable with the vaccine schedule. Because, for them, it isn't about what the science shows. It's about their conviction that vaccines are harmful.


So, that's why I don't trust those people as a source of good information about vaccines. It's like trying to get your information about evolution from creationist sources; I have no doubt they're acting in good faith, but they have powerful pre-existing convictions which colour their view of the evidence hopelessly.


As for what goals they're pursuing, that's hard to say - it always seems to be about what they're against, not so much about what they're for. I mean, they'll talk in general terms about being 'pro safe vaccine', but that never seems to be expressed in terms of wanting the schedule to be such-and-such, or wanting to change the composition of vaccines to such-and-such. I've never seen them give a specific goal as to what changes in the current vaccines would make them happy about vaccines, and I doubt whether such a goal exists. I think that whatever were to get changed about the vaccine schedule or how vaccines are made or whatever, they'd still find some reason to raise concerns about the dangers of vaccines. Because... at bottom, for them, it's about fearing vaccines.
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#24 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 10:41 AM
 
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@Good Enough Mum
Thanks for the response.

To a long-term, fairly well educated vaccine critic, your view of "anti-vaxers" seems as parodied as what you see as the prejudicial and inflexible views of the other side.

I don't think there is any problem with vaccines which anyone could bring forward under any circumstances which would seem to you to be a legitimate reason to turn down a vaccine--other than a doctor saying "skip that one, it might kill you."

Over many hundreds of years, a variety of problems have been proposed in relation to painkillers. Rather than deligitimizing the concerns (so many different problems at so many different times), the problems have been taken seriously and addressed.

To reverse the question, why is it that perfectly legitimate points about vaccines are considered ridiculous?

Let us start back in the 1800s with the smallpox vaccine. Germ theory began to be considered in relation to surgery and childbirth by the 1870s. Doctors began to understand that clean equipment could prevent infection. When it came to vaccines, however, the smallpox vaccine was produced in ways that guaranteed contamination (both bacterial and viral) and when "anti-vaccine" people pointed out that the vaccination process was actually spreading disease...their concerns were dismissed and mocked. What gave?

The smallpox vaccine was still produced in a way that guaranteed contamination until the 1940s at least. Why?

Were those illegitimate concerns or not?
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#25 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 11:41 AM
 
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Yes. I do. I know that from caring for children with measles. It is called, "first hand experience". I know how to treat and comfort a child with this condition, which many doctors do not.

Why did the intern who attended my son, niece, and nephew not know that? Or did she think I was too stupid to understand?

Do medical students ever learn anything about, "adverse events following vaccination", and how to recognize these events? Or are they told that these events are so rare that they will never see one in their practice?


That may be ideal, however a degree in the science field is not required for admission to medical school, so undergrad bio classes and labs may not be a requirement either.
A degree in a science field may not be required for admission, but undergraduate bio and labs are absolutely prerequisites for admission.
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#26 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 11:53 AM
 
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Sorry I haven't replied to this before now – have been pretty busy, so took a bit of time off from the forums.


What I meant here by 'anti-vaccine agenda' is a fundamental distrust of vaccines that I see a lot in vaccine debates. Anti-vaxxers (for want of a better term – if you can think of a different term for this kind of attitude towards vaccination then fire ahead, I'm listening) have a deep-rooted immovable conviction that vaccines are terribly harmful in some way. It's often not clear which way, so you get a lot of shifting of the prevailing claim (once it was the DPT that was the bad guy, then it was the MMR, then it was mercury in vaccines, now it's other vaccine ingredients – the one consistent feature is that there is always some way in which vaccines are being blamed for something scary) but they are absolutely certain that, in some way, vaccines are ultimately going to turn out to have dire consequences.


For people with this sort of attitude, it just doesn't matter what the evidence shows or what people on the pro-vaccine side do – everything is interpreted through this filter of 'Vaccines are harmful'. There is literally no amount of research that can convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter how many studies get done, or how reassuring the findings are, or how well the risk-benefit profile of vaccines compares to that of the VPDs... there is simply nothing that would ever get these people to a point of feeling comfortable with the vaccine schedule. Because, for them, it isn't about what the science shows. It's about their conviction that vaccines are harmful.
I'm hoping you can perhaps offer some historical examples of concerns raised by the people you call "anti-vaccine" and the research response which was reassuring and rejected by said anti-vaccine folks.

Otherwise, this is all blather.
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#27 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 12:14 PM
 
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Let's skip the entire autism battle. Perhaps the DTP struggles?

I'll admit that they were taken seriously by the Japanese who eventually developed the vaccines which have been substituted for the DTP. But the Japanese have a history of treating vaccine concerns as legitimate and sometimes they get attacked for doing so.

Here is an example of some concerns about the DTP vaccine which includes info from doctors. http://www.albionmonitor.com/free2/dpt.html

How were these concerns addressed?
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#28 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 01:27 PM
 
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Let's skip the entire autism battle. Perhaps the DTP struggles?

I'll admit that they were taken seriously by the Japanese who eventually developed the vaccines which have been substituted for the DTP. But the Japanese have a history of treating vaccine concerns as legitimate and sometimes they get attacked for doing so.

Here is an example of some concerns about the DTP vaccine which includes info from doctors. http://www.albionmonitor.com/free2/dpt.html

How were these concerns addressed?
I try to avoid wading into specific scientific issues about individual vaccines, and I will probably regret doing so now. But--I thought I read that the U.S. switched to the acellular version of the pertussis vaccine because the evidence showed that it had fewer adverse effects than the older vaccine. Is that not right? Wasn't that to address these concerns? I may be entirely wrong about all of this; I'm sure someone will let me know!
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#29 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 02:03 PM
 
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They did. Many, many, many years after the Japanese made the switch.

And now the pro-vaccine are blaming the current pertussis outbreaks (increase actually began back in the 1980s) on the anti-vaccine lobby for demanding the change to a vaccine which is less effective. And they've added the claim that all of the problems from the older vaccine were just imaginary anyway.

This article is a fairly balanced discussion of the problems. They leave out the entire original antigenic sin business, which is a major reason for the spread of pertussis in highly vaccinated populations. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ng-off/?page=1

Plus the numbers of deaths before the vaccine are ALWAYS inflated. Anyone have the real numbers?
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#30 of 46 Old 03-08-2015, 02:20 PM
 
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They did. Many, many, many years after the Japanese made the switch.

And now the pro-vaccine are blaming the current pertussis outbreaks (increase actually began back in the 1980s) on the anti-vaccine lobby for demanding the change to a vaccine which is less effective. And they've added the claim that all of the problems from the older vaccine were just imaginary anyway.

This article is a fairly balanced discussion of the problems. They leave out the entire original antigenic sin business, which is a major reason for the spread of pertussis in highly vaccinated populations. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ng-off/?page=1

Plus the numbers of deaths before the vaccine are ALWAYS inflated. Anyone have the real numbers?
Good article; thanks for posting. Maybe I misunderstood your post about DTP. I thought you were suggesting that it was an example of how scientists don't take concerns about vaccine safety seriously. I see it as showing the opposite. There was a vaccine, it was effective, and it was saving lives. Evidence started to show that it also had a significant number of adverse events. An alternative vaccine was developed. Eventually evidence showed that it was as effective as the older vaccine and had fewer adverse events. The U.S. adopted the new vaccine and ceased using the old one. It didn't do this on the same timetable as some other countries, but I don't think we have enough information to say whether the U.S.'s timetable was unreasonable in light of the information available at the time; presumably this is a difficult judgment call based on a lot of factors.

Now the evidence suggests that the new vaccine has some drawbacks, and scientists are trying to figure out how to address those drawbacks. It's complicated, and a difficult problem to solve. Every option has risks and benefits.

This is how science is supposed to work, I think.
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