Purpose of shingles vaccine - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 154 Old 02-20-2015, 09:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by suschi View Post
Shingles has always been more common in the "elderly" folk, say 50 and above, not sure what causes the reactivation but what bothers me most is that shingles (VERY uncommon in children) has been reported as an adverse effect of the CHICKEN POX VACCINE given to children, sometimes in the child getting the shot, and sometimes in the elder adult in contact with the child (because it's a live virus vaccine). I was in a debate about this with someone so I wrote directly to the CDC to see if shingles was really being reported as a result of the vaccine, and the answer was yes! But of course followed by "in rare cases" or something to that effect. I am going to go thru my email and see if I can dig up the exact response. Will post it if I can find it. Also, you can check the VAERS reports and I'm pretty sure there are a bunch with shingles being reported.
I looked up the varicella insert after I heard of others also getting shingles after that vaccine. Shingles is listed as a reported reaction, and farther down on the insert it mentions that receiving the chicken pox vaccine when you've already had the chicken pox naturally can cause herpes zoster/shingles.
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#32 of 154 Old 02-20-2015, 10:27 PM
 
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I've had shingles twice. At least I assume it was twice, because I didn't go to the doctor the first time, when I was 25. I thought it couldn't be shingles because in these really old medical encyclopedia volumes that we had, they showed shingles with a number of lesions, and I had only one. It was bad, though, on my forehead, and it left a noticeable scar. The area around my head was tingling and felt almost like a cold sore, but then I got a headache in that part of my head that didn't go away for 2 weeks. And I had these deep burning and itching pains that were hard to deal with. It took a long time to go away. I remember it started sometime around Easter, and the lesion didn't really heal until summer.

In December of 2013 I got shingles again, but I didn't know what it was. It was on my left side with pain in my stomach, which I thought might be bowel related. But I also was having stabbing pains in my side, and up my shoulder blade, and it felt like a pinched nerve. I went to the doctor this time, but they didn't know what was causing it. They thought it might be my heart and rushed out the EKG machine, but I knew that wasn't the issue. A day or two later, I got this really irritating rash under my left breast, and it was stinging and I realize it was exactly like what I had when I was 25. I ended up going to the doctor and getting an anti-viral, but it was already going away by that time.

After I had shingles, and someone I know had it a few years ago, and she is younger than I am, my husband decided to get the vaccine. But they wouldn't give it too him as he is too young. I guess you have to be at least 60.

I had chicken pox when I was about 6. Both my younger sisters had it as well. And then in the 80's, my sister's kids all had it, and I didn't have any issues. Another friend got shingles around the time my second daughter was born, and all her children came down with chicken pox. My kids were exposed to them, but didn't develop it. I am rather curious about shingles and chicken pox immunity.
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#33 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 07:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Viola View Post
I've had shingles twice. At least I assume it was twice, because I didn't go to the doctor the first time, when I was 25. I thought it couldn't be shingles because in these really old medical encyclopedia volumes that we had, they showed shingles with a number of lesions, and I had only one. It was bad, though, on my forehead, and it left a noticeable scar. The area around my head was tingling and felt almost like a cold sore, but then I got a headache in that part of my head that didn't go away for 2 weeks. And I had these deep burning and itching pains that were hard to deal with. It took a long time to go away. I remember it started sometime around Easter, and the lesion didn't really heal until summer.

In December of 2013 I got shingles again, but I didn't know what it was. It was on my left side with pain in my stomach, which I thought might be bowel related. But I also was having stabbing pains in my side, and up my shoulder blade, and it felt like a pinched nerve. I went to the doctor this time, but they didn't know what was causing it. They thought it might be my heart and rushed out the EKG machine, but I knew that wasn't the issue. A day or two later, I got this really irritating rash under my left breast, and it was stinging and I realize it was exactly like what I had when I was 25. I ended up going to the doctor and getting an anti-viral, but it was already going away by that time.

After I had shingles, and someone I know had it a few years ago, and she is younger than I am, my husband decided to get the vaccine. But they wouldn't give it too him as he is too young. I guess you have to be at least 60.

I had chicken pox when I was about 6. Both my younger sisters had it as well. And then in the 80's, my sister's kids all had it, and I didn't have any issues. Another friend got shingles around the time my second daughter was born, and all her children came down with chicken pox. My kids were exposed to them, but didn't develop it. I am rather curious about shingles and chicken pox immunity.
if you dont mind, how old were you on the 2nd time?
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#34 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Steph Anie View Post
I looked up the varicella insert after I heard of others also getting shingles after that vaccine. Shingles is listed as a reported reaction, and farther down on the insert it mentions that receiving the chicken pox vaccine when you've already had the chicken pox naturally can cause herpes zoster/shingles.
Ah, so that would explain why those exposed to a recently vaccinated child can break out in shingles. Hmm, maybe I should start composing my scathing rant to post on Facebook to those who give their kids the chicken pox vaccine, you know, just in case I ever break out in shingles.

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#35 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 09:54 AM
 
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I think applejucie is right about the L-lysine.

Anyway, there are lots of pages with info on natural treatments for shingles. There are other choices besides enriching Murky Merck by buying their vaccine.
I have read that taking L-lysine daily can help prevent cold sores
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#36 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 02:59 PM
 
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I have read that taking L-lysine daily can help prevent cold sores
Yes,because cold sores are often caused by a herpes virus which is the family of viruses that chicken pox is from.
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Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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#37 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 03:07 PM
 
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Ah, so that would explain why those exposed to a recently vaccinated child can break out in shingles. Hmm, maybe I should start composing my scathing rant to post on Facebook to those who give their kids the chicken pox vaccine, you know, just in case I ever break out in shingles.

No, you can't get shingles from being exposed to a recently vaccinated child. Shingles is not contagious. It's a reactivation of the already existing chicken pox virus that you have in your system.
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#38 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 05:20 PM
 
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No, you can't get shingles from being exposed to a recently vaccinated child. Shingles is not contagious. It's a reactivation of the already existing chicken pox virus that you have in your system.
Children don't vaccinate against shingles. I think she is saying CP vaccine sheds, so people can get shingles from recently vaccinated CP kids.
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#39 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 06:00 PM
 
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Children don't vaccinate against shingles. I think she is saying CP vaccine sheds, so people can get shingles from recently vaccinated CP kids.

And I'm saying she's wrong. You can't get shingles from a recently vaccinated child. Shingles is not contagious. You have the CP virus in your body from a previous infection. It is dormant and can reactivate at any time. It has nothing to do with an exposure to chicken pox, shingles, or live attenuated virus "shed" from a child.
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#40 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 07:12 PM
 
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I looked up the varicella insert after I heard of others also getting shingles after that vaccine. Shingles is listed as a reported reaction, and farther down on the insert it mentions that receiving the chicken pox vaccine when you've already had the chicken pox naturally can cause herpes zoster/shingles.


Can we find more vaccine inserts online?
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#41 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 08:06 PM
 
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Can we find more vaccine inserts online?
I'm sure you can find many inserts online by searching.
The particular one I got was from Merck and herpes zoster is listed under post-marketing experience, then farther down (section 12.? if I remember) it has a bit of info on adults who had chicken pox having higher rates of shingles after vaccination than children.
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#42 of 154 Old 02-21-2015, 09:22 PM
 
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if you dont mind, how old were you on the 2nd time?
It was just before my 47th birthday, I believe. And I was probably around 26 the first time. I don't think either case was that severe and both times I was under some stress.
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#43 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 08:24 AM
 
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I have no idea how it would happen, but I have heard of parents getting shingles shortly after their kids got the "boosters" for kindergarten. There may be some sort of odd interaction between exposure to the vaccine virus and the lurking chickenpox virus.

Research needed...
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#44 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 08:41 AM
 
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And I'm saying she's wrong. You can't get shingles from a recently vaccinated child. Shingles is not contagious. You have the CP virus in your body from a previous infection. It is dormant and can reactivate at any time. It has nothing to do with an exposure to chicken pox, shingles, or live attenuated virus "shed" from a child.
Shingles is caused by reactivation of latent varicella zoster virus. So are you saying that exposure to a child shedding a LIVE VIRUS cannot possibly cause said reactivation? Do you know why they stopped giving the oral polio vaccine in the US?

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Well, it shouldn't cause reactivation. And generally being exposed to actual chickenpox prevents reactivation of the virus for most people.

But there are those people getting shingles right around the time their kids start kindergarten.
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#46 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 09:26 AM
 
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Shingles is caused by reactivation of latent varicella zoster virus. So are you saying that exposure to a child shedding a LIVE VIRUS cannot possibly cause said reactivation? Do you know why they stopped giving the oral polio vaccine in the US?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

They stopped giving the oral live polio in the US because it could cause active polio. That has absolutely nothing to do with shingles, chicken pox, or the vaccine for either.

Do YOU know the difference between an enterovirus (of which poliovirus is a type of) and a herpesvirus (like varicella)?

Do you even understand the implications of what you're saying? If it were true, it would mean that back in the day when everyone got wild-type chicken pox, every time their child got CP or they were exposed to a child with chicken pox, it would reactivate their latent virus and cause shingles. Which is just as ridiculous as the scenario that you are proposing.
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#47 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 09:39 AM
 
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Problem is, we do know that exposure to chickenpox, the real illness, boosts resistance to shingles. We don't know that exposure to vaccine shedding boosts resistance to shingles. It has NOT been studied.

Assuming that vaccine exposures work the same way as illness exposures is not science.
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It was just before my 47th birthday, I believe. And I was probably around 26 the first time. I don't think either case was that severe and both times I was under some stress.
Very interesting, thank you.
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#49 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 10:05 AM
 
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

They stopped giving the oral live polio in the US because it could cause active polio. That has absolutely nothing to do with shingles, chicken pox, or the vaccine for either.

Do YOU know the difference between an enterovirus (of which poliovirus is a type of) and a herpesvirus (like varicella)?

Do you even understand the implications of what you're saying? If it were true, it would mean that back in the day when everyone got wild-type chicken pox, every time their child got CP or they were exposed to a child with chicken pox, it would reactivate their latent virus and cause shingles. Which is just as ridiculous as the scenario that you are proposing.
And how did they get polio? By shedding of the LIVE VIRUS, those in close contact with a recently vaccinated child WERE GETTING POLIO from the shedding of the live virus. And that is EXACTLY what can happen with the shedding of the live virus in those recently vaccinated for chicken pox. Also note that just because one has never broken out in full blown rash doesn't mean they never had chickenpox. It is possible to be exposed to the virus and have it in your system with no apparent symptoms ever displayed.

For S&*Ts and Giggles I perused the VAERS database, you must know this is not just a coinkydink:

Check out VAERS ID#s

78260
79117
82922
82992
83232
86570, my favorite

VAERS ID:
78260 (history)  
Vaccinated:
1995-09-27
Age:
1.9  
Onset:
1995-10-04, Days after vaccination: 7
Gender:
Female  
Submitted:
1995-10-14, Days after onset: 10
Location:
Oregon  
Entered:
1995-10-19, Days after submission: 5
Life Threatening? No
Died? No
Permanent Disability? No
Recovered? Yes
ER or Doctor Visit? No
Hospitalized? No
Previous Vaccinations:
Other Medications: NONE
Current Illness: NONE
Preexisting Conditions: NONE
Diagnostic Lab Data: NONE
CDC Split Type:
Vaccination
Manufacturer
Lot
Dose
Route
Site
VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX)
MERCK & CO. INC.
 
0
 
 
Administered by: Unknown     Purchased by: Unknown
Symptoms: Herpes zoster, Rash
SMQs:, Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Hypersensitivity (narrow)
Write-up: rash on body 1wk p/vax then father devel shingles (MD visit)
************************************************** *********************************
VAERS ID:
83232 (history)  
Vaccinated:
0000-00-00
Age:
  
Onset:
0000-00-00
Gender:
Male  
Submitted:
0000-00-00
Location:
Michigan  
Entered:
1996-01-31
Life Threatening? No
Died? No
Permanent Disability? No
Recovered? No
ER or Doctor Visit? No
Hospitalized? No
Previous Vaccinations:
Other Medications:
Current Illness:
Preexisting Conditions:
Diagnostic Lab Data: no relevant data
CDC Split Type: WAES95111437
Vaccination
Manufacturer
Lot
Dose
Route
Site
VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX)
MERCK & CO. INC.
 
 
 
 
Administered by: Unknown     Purchased by: Unknown
Symptoms: Herpes zoster
SMQs:
Write-up: pt''s granddaughter recvd vax but grandfather devel shingles;RN also reported that the granddaughter''s younger sister devel eye infect & vesicular rash p/ sister was vaccinated;
************************************************** **************
VAERS ID:
82992 (history)  
Vaccinated:
0000-00-00
Age:
  
Onset:
0000-00-00
Gender:
Male  
Submitted:
0000-00-00
Location:
Unknown  
Entered:
1996-01-31
Life Threatening? No
Died? No
Permanent Disability? No
Recovered? No
ER or Doctor Visit? No
Hospitalized? No
Previous Vaccinations:
Other Medications:
Current Illness:
Preexisting Conditions:
Diagnostic Lab Data: culture-lesions cultured neg;
CDC Split Type: WAES95100758
Vaccination
Manufacturer
Lot
Dose
Route
Site
VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX)
MERCK & CO. INC.
 
 
 
 
Administered by: Unknown     Purchased by: Unknown
Symptoms: Herpes zoster, Infection transmission via personal contact
SMQs:
Write-up: pt recvd vax & 2wks later the parent devel a severe case of shingles;parent (physician) had no history of chicken pox;the vaccinated child did not devel vesicular lesions;parents lesion were cultured & were neg;
*************************************************
VAERS ID:
82922 (history)  
Vaccinated:
1995-09-20
Age:
5.0  
Onset:
1995-09-27, Days after vaccination: 7
Gender:
Female  
Submitted:
0000-00-00
Location:
Wisconsin  
Entered:
1996-01-31
Life Threatening? No
Died? No
Permanent Disability? No
Recovered? Yes
ER or Doctor Visit? No
Hospitalized? No
Previous Vaccinations:
Other Medications: none
Current Illness:
Preexisting Conditions: exposure, varicella
Diagnostic Lab Data: no relevant data
CDC Split Type: WAES95091771
Vaccination
Manufacturer
Lot
Dose
Route
Site
VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX)
MERCK & CO. INC.
0420B
0
SC
 
Administered by: Unknown     Purchased by: Unknown
Symptoms: Dermatitis bullous, Herpes zoster, Infection transmission via personal contact, Pyrexia
SMQs:, Severe cutaneous adverse reactions (narrow), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Hypersensitivity (narrow)
Write-up: pt recvd vax;RN stated that mom said pt broke out w/ water blister pimples over arms & legs;approx 27sep95 devel 5 pox & inc fever of 101.8;pt''s father had shingles 2 wks a/
************************************************** ******



VAERS ID:
79117 (history)  
Vaccinated:
1995-08-23
Age:
  
Onset:
0000-00-00
Gender:
Female  
Submitted:
0000-00-00
Location:
Missouri  
Entered:
1995-10-23
Life Threatening? No
Died? No
Permanent Disability? No
Recovered? No
ER or Doctor Visit? No
Hospitalized? No
Previous Vaccinations:
Other Medications:
Current Illness:
Preexisting Conditions: chicken pox
Diagnostic Lab Data: no relevant data
CDC Split Type: WAES95081927
Vaccination
Manufacturer
Lot
Dose
Route
Site
VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX)
MERCK & CO. INC.
 
 
 
 
Administered by: Other     Purchased by: Other
Symptoms: Herpes zoster
SMQs:
Write-up: pt a female w/ hx of chicken pox whose child was vaccinated on 23aug95 was nursing her child & devel shingles;
****************************************

VAERS ID:
86570 (history)  
Vaccinated:
1995-05-30
Age:
2.0  
Onset:
0000-00-00
Gender:
Female  
Submitted:
1996-05-22
Location:
Utah  
Entered:
1996-06-04, Days after submission: 13
Life Threatening? No
Died? No
Permanent Disability? No
Recovered? Yes
ER or Doctor Visit? No
Hospitalized? No
Previous Vaccinations:
Other Medications:
Current Illness: unk
Preexisting Conditions: unk
Diagnostic Lab Data: none
CDC Split Type:
Vaccination
Manufacturer
Lot
Dose
Route
Site
VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX)
MERCK & CO. INC.
0405B
0
 
 
Administered by: Unknown     Purchased by: Unknown
Symptoms: Drug ineffective, Herpes zoster, Infection, Infection transmission via personal contact
SMQs:, Lack of efficacy/effect (narrow)
Write-up: pt recv vax; broke out w/ chicken pox; father & sibling broke out w/ shingles;




Now I know you may want to claim coincidence in each and every case, but the last one, not one but TWO people in the family getting shingles, and one a sibling? Maybe we should contact the CDC and see what they have to say...
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#50 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 10:08 AM
 
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Thank you!

Interesting to see that the phenomenon I'd heard rumors about has made it into VAERS.

Must all be coincidences though.
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#51 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 10:16 AM
 
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Thank you!

Interesting to see that the phenomenon I'd heard rumors about has made it into VAERS.

Must all be coincidences though.
Yes, especially in the father AND the sibling. What saddens me is that this vaccine (varicella) is driving shingles into these young age groups where it has no business.
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#52 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 12:16 PM
 
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Look, there is no biologically plausible mechanism for the CP vaccine causing shingles. There's not. If you want to say that the CP vaccine can shed and cause chicken pox in a previously uninfected person, ok, I'll buy that. But there is no way it can cause shingles. It can't. If anything, exposure to shedding CP virus from the vaccine would cause an immune boost and decrease the risk of shingles.

And please don't quote VAERs reports to me. That's a passive reporting system and it is not diagnostic of anything.
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#53 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 12:28 PM
 
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I knew that it would be dismissed as coincidence.

We have no idea what the effect is of shedding the vax virus is on people who carry the chickenpox virus in their system. And we don't want to know.
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#54 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 12:47 PM
 
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I knew that it would be dismissed as coincidence.

We have no idea what the effect is of shedding the vax virus is on people who carry the chickenpox virus in their system. And we don't want to know.

Oh, I'm not dismissing it as coincidence. I'm dismissing it, period. It's not biologically possible.
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#55 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 01:00 PM
 
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No, you are saying that shedding from the vaccine has the SAME EFFECTS as exposure to the illness. There have been quite a number of things that were considered biologically implausible that have turned out to be perfectly reasonable. *

Unless someone researches what happens when people are exposed to shedding from the vaccine we won't know what is biologically plausible and what is not.

What you are actually providing is more evidence that the vaccines haven't been properly researched to see what sort of effects they actually have in the real world.

* To give one fun example, H. Pylori was considered unlikely as a "cause" for ulcers. Then it turned out to be connected to ulcers. What makes it even more fun, is that it turns out that H. Pylori is important for the human body and removing it may clear up ulcer problems, but it causes other problems. Took a lot of research and some unconventional science before some of the weird stuff connected to this one microbe began to emerge.

We know very little about the human body and how it will and will not respond to different sorts of exposures. Shutting down research may be good for Merck, but is it good for human health? I've got a lot of doubts.
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#56 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 01:02 PM
 
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Also, why can't the government have a decent program for collecting info about vaccine reactions? VAERS is crap, according to you and lots of other pro-vaxers. Why aren't you lobbying for a good system? Accurate info about how rare vaccine reactions actually are would do wonders to promote the safety of vaccines, but the only people who ask for accurate data collection are vaccine critics.

Weird.
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#57 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 01:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Also, why can't the government have a decent program for collecting info about vaccine reactions? VAERS is crap, according to you and lots of other pro-vaxers. Why aren't you lobbying for a good system? Accurate info about how rare vaccine reactions actually are would do wonders to promote the safety of vaccines, but the only people who ask for accurate data collection are vaccine critics.

Weird.
VAERS isn't crap. It's awesome. It's a passive reporting system used for early warning which would leas to further investigation. What it can't be used for is data-mining to research vaccine reactions.
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#58 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 01:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chknlovr View Post
VAERS isn't crap. It's awesome. It's a passive reporting system used for early warning which would leas to further investigation. What it can't be used for is data-mining to research vaccine reactions.
Exactly. The pro-vaccine can dismiss anything that turns up in VAERS. What an awesome system if you want to be able to ignore and dismiss the vast majority of vaccine reactions. The passive part is particularly nice, because doctors screen most reactions and tell parents that whatever it is, it isn't the vaccines.

But...you can't expect people who have seen vaccine reactions and had them dismissed by doctors to be nearly as enamored of this system as you are.

I'll say again, that the best way to convince people that vaccines are safe is to incorporate the reaction recording system into the same system that records vaccinations, to require doctors to enter anything reported by anyone after a vaccination (this would clear up all those Hulk reports, because the system would make it impossible to enter something that isn't linked to an actual record of an actual vaccination) and to eliminate the role of doctors as screens to dismiss vaccine concerns.

We'd finally have accurate data on how many reactions are occurring. And how serious they are. And whether there is escalation from minor reactions to more serious reactions. And lots of other useful data, including whether some vaccine lots produce a higher number of reaction reports.

But, as I said, the only people who want a complete system for recording vaccine reactions are the critics.
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#59 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 01:25 PM
 
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One of the main things that concerns me about the VAERS system is that it leaves babies and children who do react badly to vaccines to hang out to dry. If the doctor doesn't record the report in the baby's file, there is no record. And if the baby reacts again, if the doctor still doesn't record the report, there is no record that this baby is having problems with vaccines. Doctors see hundreds of babies. Stuff, even weird unlikely stuff, should be recorded. But it isn't.

And lots of other weird stuff doesn't get recorded.
You realize that there could very well be thousands and thousands of cases of shingles in siblings and parents following chickenpox vaccinations and they don't end up in VAERS and there is no SIGNAL, and any scientist who might research it thinks, well that is biologically implausible and there is no funding, and it will destroy my career, so who cares.

Ideal system for Merck.
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#60 of 154 Old 02-22-2015, 01:34 PM
 
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Here is a published case: [Herpes zoster after varicella-zoster vaccination]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23358727

Last edited by Tweety_Bird; 10-14-2016 at 01:19 AM.
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