Time to reconsider the entire vaccine paradigm - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 59 Old 07-15-2015, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Time to reconsider the entire vaccine paradigm

Over the last 50 or 60 years, a huge amount has been learned about the immune system and the human body.

Much of the vaccine model is based on a lot of rigid and to some extent simply outdated ideas.

Some of the assumptions that need to be reconsidered:

1) Childhood illnesses are always bad, even if they are mostly mild. Children will be healthier if they never have any childhood illnesses. More research needed.

2) The odd way that particular illnesses become much more dangerous when a vaccine is recommended. Mumps and chickenpox are good examples. This transformation undermines the story about it being all about "science."

3) A need to understand why the same virus or bacteria has different outcomes in different bodies. Polio is a very good example.

4) Are vaccines really cost effective? Consider the pertussis vaccine. It has never been anywhere close to as effective as claimed and it is sinking fast. Apparently we are years away from a new version and the costs will be astronomical. Despite the sad fact that there vast numbers of cases every year (only a few get counted), it doesn't actually seem to be more than a nuisance, except for infants. An effective way of protecting infants needs to be found--injecting moms while pregnant hasn't actually been demonstrated to be either safe or effective--and we'll probably never know if it actually safe or effective.

4b) I could go on about cost effective for a very long time...just let me say that real studies on this question are needed.

5) Other ways of handling disease prevention need to be considered. That new study that looked into squirting probiotics into the nose to protect against certain germs seems promising. There are all sorts of wonderful possibilities to be developed out of the growing understanding of the microbiome, which has been quietly protecting us from all sorts of illnesses for a very long time--little appreciated!

6) Some decent research on the Vitamin C option would be great. Ditto the role of Vitamin D in immune system support.

Are vaccines really our one and only option when it comes to infectious illness? Of course not. Without clean water we'd mostly be dead regardless of how many vaccines we jabbed in to every body.

We already understand a lot of the limits of vaccines. Let's have a real discussion about the shortcomings of the current game and consider the best way out of the lockstep craziness of the current paradigm endgame.

Time to move forward!
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#2 of 59 Old 07-16-2015, 06:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Over the last 50 or 60 years, a huge amount has been learned about the immune system and the human body.

Much of the vaccine model is based on a lot of rigid and to some extent simply outdated ideas.
. . .

Are vaccines really our one and only option when it comes to infectious illness? Of course not. Without clean water we'd mostly be dead regardless of how many vaccines we jabbed in to every body.

We already understand a lot of the limits of vaccines. Let's have a real discussion about the shortcomings of the current game and consider the best way out of the lockstep craziness of the current paradigm endgame.

Time to move forward!
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the "vaccine paradigm." Can you explain more about what you mean?

I see vaccines as one of many tools currently being used to fight infectious disease, along with things like improved hygiene practices, medications (e.g., antibiotics, antivirals), and other things (e.g., probiotics). They're certainly not the only way infectious disease is currently being addressed. Are you proposing taking vaccines off the table as a tool against infectious disease? Are you proposing questioning the very idea of fighting against infectious disease? I don't think I understand.

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#3 of 59 Old 07-16-2015, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Let's start with the epidemiological shift, from infectious diseases as the main killers to chronic diseases as the big problem. This is rapidly coming unraveled due to the idiotic overuse of antibiotics, alas, but it is a major part of my story.

The evidence is overwhelming that only a tiny portion of the drop in deaths between 1900 and 2000 was due to medical interventions. Most of the change was achieved by a transformation in living conditions for which the water quality engineers deserve most of the credit. Other important technologies include the processes for freezing food, transporting food, refrigerating food and handling food. The Progressive Movement in the US who fought for slum clearance did a lot to improve living and working conditions. An end to child labor massively reduced accidental deaths of children.

So, much of the claim of the vaccine pushers "we saved millions of lives" is BS. They are simply stealing lives saved by other means and claiming them, falsely, as the result of vaccination programs.

I'd say that a central part of the pro-vaccine argument is based on falsehoods. That doesn't bode well for the present or the future.

When challenged on this point, the pro-vaccine briskly move the goalposts and start talking about incidence and complications.

Well great. So modern children are healthy? Not so much in the US. Perhaps it is just coincidence, but there seem to be lots and lots of children with chronic conditions. Perhaps they are different chronic conditions than the sort that would have followed measles, mumps and chickenpox, but if the the point of the entire exercise is to have healthy children, it hasn't worked.

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#4 of 59 Old 07-16-2015, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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In my original list, I totally forgot the huge problem of serotype replacement.
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#5 of 59 Old 07-16-2015, 10:15 AM
 
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I saw a link a few days ago to an article that discussed shifting health paradigms over 50 years in Costa Rica. It said the first thing public health grappled with was deficiency diseases - deficient in nutrition (and sanitation, I would add) then grappled with infectious diseases and is now grappling with chronic diseases.


The question for many vaccine critics is if vaccines contribute to chronic conditions.


There is an element to vaccine discussions that everyone who devotes time to has to grapple with: are we fiddling while Rome is burning?


In any event, and to answer Jessica's question: I do not propose getting rid of vaccines as a tool.


If we have A on one side, and B on the other, I vote for B.


A
All or virtually all children get all vaccine. Vaccine compliancy is stressed, and parents who wish to deviate from compliancy are punished in one way or another


or


B


Parents are the final voice in which vaccines their children get, and are free to decide without coercion or punishment. Full disclosure of risks and benefits is the norm, and parents are encouraged to accept or reject specific vaccines based on individual risk factors.

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#6 of 59 Old 07-16-2015, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought of a great parallel example today that I think explains quite well what I'm trying to get at.

In the last 20 or 30 years, soil science has made massive new discoveries and now understands that soil is an extremely complex ecosystem involving a wide range of bacteria, viruses, plants, animals all working together (if things go right) to maintain and build health soil. Human agriculture is way behind the curve and has been all along, getting, at best, short-term benefits for long-term disasters, and lately the drive to disasters has been accelerating with GMOs and herbicides and pesticides all wreaking havoc on the soil ecosystem and undermining the long term health and viability of our planet. This article isn't free, alas, but even one paragraph points to some of the amazing research which is going on nowadays. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13855.html

This one is also helpful http://nature.berkeley.edu/~miguel-a...trategies.html

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The prevalent philosophy is that pests, nutrient deficiencies or other factors are the cause of low productivity, as opposed to the view that pests or nutrients only become limiting if conditions in the agroecosystem are not in equilibrium (Carrol et al. 1990). For this reason, there still prevails a narrow view that specific causes affect productivity, and overcoming the limiting factor via new technologies, continues to be the main goal.
Points to a very narrow view of problems and solutions.

I think the similarity to vaccines as a solution to illness is fairly obvious.

Human beings got into a cycle of disastrous outbreaks of diseases because they began living in villages, towns and then cities. Agriculture brought more food, but also unreliable food and less nutritious and varied food. The combination of sanitary problems and malnutrition and crowding all resulted in disastrous outbreaks of disease. Trade helped spread technology and culture and disease. Eventually our technology began to catch up with our life style and sanitary engineering and especially chlorinated water massively reduced disease outbreaks. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, food storage systems and transportation improved nutrition and restored some of the variety to the human diet that was lost in the move to agriculture. Technology also improved housing and reduced overcrowding. Birth control in combination with cleanliness and other factors (such as mothers being able to stay home and care for and breastfeed their own babies, amazingly enough, working women in many cultures could not) reduced infant mortality.

Eventually modern medicine jumped in with a lot of vaccines and also with antibiotics and tried to paint themselves as the major saviors, but they really came late to the game.

Basically, I'm seeing both antibiotics AND vaccines as crutches (just like pesticides and herbicides and the technological solutions in agriculture) which look like great solutions but in the long-term are disastrous. Vaccines no more create healthy bodies than pesticides create healthy soil ecology.

I think there is an opportunity for a major re-thinking of the entire human relationship to our planet and our bodies--time for transformation! Let's look, in the long run, for real health.

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#7 of 59 Old 07-18-2015, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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New malaria vaccine has some challenges. http://www.japantoday.com/category/h...alaria-vaccine

Interesting article on the challenges of malaria control http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925229/

http://www.who.int/heli/risks/vector...en/index2.html combining a lot of different approaches

This article is particularly fascinating, explaining why bioengineering mosquitoes to be resistant to malaria is so tricky AND pointing out that the majority of mosquitoes have already developed such resistance--perhaps all we need to do is to find a way to eliminate the remaining population of "bad" mosquitoes. http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org...57/10/816.full

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Takken shares Riehle's belief that using innate immunity and naturally occurring pesticides is a better idea than attempting to bioengineer a solution. “Making use of natural resistance mechanisms has in principle a much brighter future, as the evolutionary selection processes have already taken place,” he says. Resistance traits evolved in nature are less likely to cause unforeseen problems than completely novel, laboratory-built genes.
but there are good arguments presented on the other side, too.

The article makes it clear that the pesticide model is basically a failure.

I continue to think that the vaccine solution is heading towards the same junkyard as the pesticide solution. In the long run, neither is a viable approach to either disease control or health.
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#8 of 59 Old 07-18-2015, 09:59 AM
 
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New malaria vaccine has some challenges. http://www.japantoday.com/category/h...alaria-vaccine

Interesting article on the challenges of malaria control http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925229/

http://www.who.int/heli/risks/vector...en/index2.html combining a lot of different approaches

This article is particularly fascinating, explaining why bioengineering mosquitoes to be resistant to malaria is so tricky AND pointing out that the majority of mosquitoes have already developed such resistance--perhaps all we need to do is to find a way to eliminate the remaining population of "bad" mosquitoes. http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org...57/10/816.full



but there are good arguments presented on the other side, too.

The article makes it clear that the pesticide model is basically a failure.

I continue to think that the vaccine solution is heading towards the same junkyard as the pesticide solution. In the long run, neither is a viable approach to either disease control or health.
When I was studying malaria they did focus mostly on vector control as the best way to combat the disease. It's carried by anopheles mosquitos and interestingly enough it's not caused by a bacteria as many diseases are, it's caused a protozoan, Plasmodium. P. vivax is the most widespread, but P. falciparum is the most deadly. Sorry, geeking out a bit as I wrote a long paper about the different types of Plasmodium and malaria as part of my final project in Microbiology lol.

Anyway, because of the life cycle of the mosquito and the incubation period of the disease, it's hard to trace back the exact point of infection. To combat this, the best methodology so far has been to drain stagnant bodies of water and to inject microbial larvicides into the water. They've tried to make vaccines in the past but the life cycle of the plasmodium is so much more complex than a simple virus or bacteria (i.e., it doesn't enter the trophozoite stage until it reaches the hepatic system and the trophozoite is the stage that causes pathogenesis...however once it reaches this stage it become systemic and hemolytic very quickly and thus very difficult to treat!) So while hopefully a vaccine is on the horizon, we have to look at other means as as important or more important in the meantime.
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#9 of 59 Old 07-19-2015, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It sounds as though a vaccine is going to be expensive, tricky to administer and, until it is actually extensively used in the trial population, possibly unsafe. That is why I think it is a good example of how the drive for vaccines as a solution can actually get in the way of what might be better approaches.

The recent discovery that many mosquitoes actually have immunity to this parasite indicates that it might be possible to eliminate the mosquitoes that don't have the immunity--which would be a rather neat achievement!

For example, let us imagine that instead of water chlorination, the US went for the typhoid vaccine as a way of controlling this disease. How might that have played out?

For one thing, all the other water borne diseases would have continued to afflict people. Typhoid would have continued to occur, because as we all know, vaccines are not 100%. The vaccine looks like it is fairly safe but any vaccine given to millions of people on a regular basis will cause some problems in at least a few people. The cost of regularly vaccinating the entire US population would have added up for sure. True, water treatment plants ARE expensive, but given the range of diseases they prevent, they seem to be a good deal compared to a vaccine against even a single water borne disease, much less trying to control all of the water-borne diseases via vaccination.

What is needed now is a way to control water borne diseases in developing countries which doesn't involve huge infrastructure.

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#10 of 59 Old 07-19-2015, 08:08 PM
 
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I LOVE this thread!!! SO fascinating! I only have "urban legends" to contribute and for that reason i think i should just shut up - but can't resist my curiosity - (sometimes the proverbial cat doesn't care), not in an untrue way, but in the way that everyone here is familiar.

We all know, thanks to Mendelssohn and others, how smallpox was injected into children for three decades after it was necessary, hence spreading the disease.
Does anyone think polio should be dubbed eradicated? No doubt, discussed before, but wondering in this vein. FTR I do, but wonder about Dr Freil's opinion.

I have no valid contributing knowledge of malaria, but am wondering why we did not see the same push for a cholera vaccine after the Haiti earthquake? And where does our ebola vaccine push stand? Something seems off?

And thx!
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#11 of 59 Old 07-21-2015, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the tale of the HPV vaccine is an excellent example of the problems with vaccines as the solution to supposed infectious diseases.

First, is HPV really an infectious disease in the usual sense? If it takes many many years to develop into a disease condition--even if it is spread by human contact--it doesn't really fit the narrative very well.

Second, it is a poster child for the "terrain" theory of disease. Exposure to HPV is only a very small slice of the problem. In order for the HPV to turn into cancer there have to be multiple failures on several levels. Lack of screening (and there are inexpensive alternatives to paps), long-term unhealthy habits like smoking and malnutrition.

Third, the vaccine is very expensive and requires multiple doses and an unusually big dose of adjuvant.

This strikes me as a solution in search of a problem -- and the main motive for the solution seems to be income for drug companies frankly. Not the health of teenage girls, now or in the future.

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#12 of 59 Old 08-06-2015, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How does the recent understanding of the microbiome play into the vaccine paradigm? Interesting article http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/how...and-patriarchy
Quote:
Once the object of modern medicine's fundamental responsibility – the human body – is redefined and/or perceived with greater veracity, and "germs" become less other and more self, a challenge for germ theory which seeks to differentiate between the "good" germs we are versus the "bad" ones out there that we must fight with antibiotics and vaccines.
This is already beginning to turn into quite the muddle, as doctors use increasingly sensitive tests to find out what is lurking in the human body. Think this through. Child comes in with a sore throat. Doctor runs tests, finds bacteria, decides the bacteria is the "cause" of the sore throat and treats it with an antibiotic. Problems. Bacteria actually wasn't the cause of the sore throat, it just happened to be hanging out in the child's body at the same time that the child was coming down with a cold (virus, ya know?) but now we've got an unnecessary antibiotic treatment, a cold that should have been handled with some rest and extra Vitamin C, plus a doctor who thinks he got it right but got it entirely wrong.

There may be an awful lot of this sort of muddling going on. And not just with antibiotics.

Think about all those cases of acute flaccid paralysis in India and Nigeria (yep, it is up in Nigeria, too). There is no serious attempt to discover what is going on with all this serious and sometimes even deadly illness in children. Why not?

In the US, however, a tiny outbreak of acute flaccid paralysis has doctors and authorities practically hysterical. I guess American kids matter...

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#13 of 59 Old 08-06-2015, 08:21 PM
 
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Child comes in with a sore throat. Doctor runs tests, finds bacteria, decides the bacteria is the "cause" of the sore throat and treats it with an antibiotic. Problems. Bacteria actually wasn't the cause of the sore throat, it just happened to be hanging out in the child's body at the same time that the child was coming down with a cold...
Reminds me of their favourite mantra: "correlation is not causation".

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#14 of 59 Old 08-07-2015, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Reminds me of their favourite mantra: "correlation is not causation".

Exactly. When they are just making wild guesses based on insufficient info, they get to call it clinical practice. When we settle in and do massive research on a topic, they get to call it Google University and have a giggle fit.

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#15 of 59 Old 08-07-2015, 12:40 PM
 
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How does the recent understanding of the microbiome play into the vaccine paradigm? Interesting article http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/how...and-patriarchy
I just want to highlight how important this article is for our understanding of the microbiome and how our birth choices and vaccines affect this. I found this concept to be extremely profound:

Quote:
It has been known for some time that only women pass down mitochondrial DNA, already tipping the scales in favor of her dominant position in contributing genetic information (the seat of our humanity or species identity, no?) to offspring. The microbiome, however, changes everything in favor of amplifying this asymmetry of hereditary influence. Since we are all designed to gestate in the womb and come through the birth canal, and since the neonate's microbiome is therein derived and established thereof, it follows that most of our genetic information as holobionts is maternal in origin. Even when the original colonization eventually changes and is displaced through environmentally-acquired microbial strains as the infant, child, adolescent, and then adult, develops, the original terrain and subsequent trajectory of changes was established through the mother (unless of course we were C-sectioned into the world).

Put in simpler terms: if 99% of what it means to be human is microbiome-based, and if the mother contributes most, if not all, of the original starting material, or at least the baseline and trajectory of future changes in the inner terrain, then her contribution becomes vastly more important than that of the father.

Moreover, the conditions surrounding gestation (important because of maternal-to-fetal microbiome trafficking in utero), her general health, and the way in which she gives birth (home, birth center, or hospital) now take on vastly greater importance than previously imagined. In other words, being born in a hospital via C-section and vaccination, will produce, genetically and epigenetically, a human that is so different – qualitatively – from one born at home, naturally, that they could almost be classified as different species, despite sharing nearly identical eukaryotic DNA (remember, only 1% of the holobiont's total).
As mothers, it is increasingly clear that we hold the responsibility for the health of our off-spring, so we must make the best choices we can and that includes protecting both our and our children's microbiome, and for me that includes protecting my children and myself from vaccination.

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#16 of 59 Old 08-07-2015, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You are absolutely right, Mirzam! Women do make the terrain!

There are ways of working with the C-section situation. A swab of the mother's vagina spread on the baby's mouth is the current method of colonization.
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#17 of 59 Old 08-07-2015, 03:53 PM
 
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You are absolutely right, Mirzam! Women do make the terrain!

There are ways of working with the C-section situation. A swab of the mother's vagina spread on the baby's mouth is the current method of colonization.
Do you have any links on this? I know of a researcher who is doing work in this area, but other than her conducting experiments, I haven't heard anything done in practice.

As a c section baby who pays for it & the other "science" of the day daily, it's frustrating at best to read & hear of all that is done to insult the microbiome. I look forward to the day when it's more well respected AND that comes thru in practice.

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#18 of 59 Old 08-07-2015, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Most of what I found out about the problem of C-sections came from the book Missing Microbes. You should be able to borrow it from your local library.
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#19 of 59 Old 08-08-2015, 04:34 PM
 
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You are absolutely right, Mirzam! Women do make the terrain!

There are ways of working with the C-section situation. A swab of the mother's vagina spread on the baby's mouth is the current method of colonization.
How I wish i had known about this 20 years ago!

Bring back the old MDC
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#20 of 59 Old 08-08-2015, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How I wish i had known about this 20 years ago!
You did your best with what you had at the time!
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#21 of 59 Old 08-13-2015, 01:14 PM
 
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Slightly OT, but interesting!

Gut Bacteria Impacts Toddlers’ Behavior, Particularly Boys

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For the study, researchers analyzed microbes from the gastrointestinal tracts of children between the age of 18 and 27 months. They found that the connection between gut bacteria and behavior remained consistent after the scientists factored in history of breastfeeding, diet, and the method of childbirth — all of which are known to influence the type of microbes in a child’s gut.
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The researchers are looking for clues into how — and where — chronic illnesses such as obesity, asthma, allergies, and bowel disease get their start.

Christian and study co-author microbiologist Michael Bailey, Ph.D., studied stool samples from 77 girls and boys, and found that children with the most genetically diverse types of gut bacteria more frequently exhibited behaviors related with positive mood, curiosity, sociability, and impulsivity.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2015/05...oys/85098.html

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#22 of 59 Old 08-13-2015, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
Slightly OT, but interesting!

Gut Bacteria Impacts Toddlers’ Behavior, Particularly Boys

http://psychcentral.com/news/2015/05...oys/85098.html
I've long suspected that the cycle of eventual brain damage for many children goes like this:

C-section or hard birth, followed by vaccines, followed by ear infections, followed by antibiotics, followed by gut dysfunction, followed by more illnesses, more antibiotics, more dysfunction and eventually culminating in severe developmental problems.

And, of course, something that complex won't be spotted by single cause studies, especially single cause studies that are designed not to connect any aspect of vaccination to any aspect of ill health.

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#23 of 59 Old 08-13-2015, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No real increase in chronic disease in American kids?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...-0036.abstract
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#24 of 59 Old 12-25-2015, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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bumping up this thread! I think it gets into some interesting issues.
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#25 of 59 Old 01-11-2016, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Bumping this up again for newcomers--I think the issue of soil health, the human microbiome and its contribution to human health and the parallel of vaccines as a supposedly cheap (just like pesticides) solution to disease is fascinating.
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#26 of 59 Old 03-19-2016, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Seriously, I think the "find a vaccine" solution is outdated. We need to rethink!

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#27 of 59 Old 03-19-2016, 07:26 PM
 
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I agree.

My own personal opinion based on my lifetime of studying this subject is that vaccination is an 18th century practice that seemed to work. With all of the knowledge we have accrued in the last 300 years, we know more about the immune system. Poking little humans with toxins to cause one reaction to prevent a disease is odd and should not be done.

There was a practice of inhaling dried smallpox pustules that was done by the Chinese and Indians 2500 years ago. That practice is closer to the natural way of acquiring a disease - inhalation - than injecting an array of assorted toxins.

"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, OMS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
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#28 of 59 Old 03-20-2016, 10:42 PM
 
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Wanted to attach this here:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/02/m...rt-2.html#more

Part one is on the link
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#29 of 59 Old 12-11-2016, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bumping this one up again for new people.

It seems to me to be important to get outside of the box when it comes to vaccines.
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#30 of 59 Old 01-23-2017, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm currently reading Water in Plain Sight by Judith D. Schwartz https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-r...n-plain-sight/

totally fascinating and enlightening. I'm currently reading the section on how nitrogen fertilizers affect plants and soil, how they are over-used and end up contaminating the water supply, and how, in the long run, the fertilizers create plants that can't protect themselves against pests or diseases. As an added bonus, the whole system creates soil that doesn't properly absorb water, increasing run-off, erosion and other nasty problems. One of the effects of the fertilizers and accompanying pesticides and herbicides is to kill off the soil microbiome.

I'm sure everyone can see the parallels to vaccinations and antibiotics.

There sure are a lot of pieces that look brilliant to start with and turn out to be disasters in the long run.

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