Appeal to Scientific Consensus is not an Appeal to Popularity or Authority - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

 243Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#91 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 11:10 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
The vaccine enthusiasts never do want to take credit for their achievements in shifting the demographics of who gets sick.
Mirzam, applejuice, idler and 2 others like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#92 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 12:05 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Thanks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


Sorry for your loss.
applejuice likes this.
usually-lurking is offline  
#93 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 01:02 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,797
Mentioned: 251 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2596 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Well, this one from JAMA looked at over 123,000 women. This one from the BMJ looked at over 20,000. Both found the vaccine safe during pregnancy.
I think both studies offered some evidence that pregnant women did not seem to be at extra risk of common pregnancy and birth related complications by accepting the vaccination. An exception is chorioamnionitis, as noted in the quote below on the Jama study.

The thing is - the links offer no reassurance that the vaccine is safe for babies beyond birth. People want to know if it is safe for the baby, and I do not think science has answered that.

On a personal note: I strongly suspect my youngest has pertussis as we speak. She is 12. It has been long, and it has been a nuisance.....but it has not been scary or needed treatment (which is very much the norm for 12 yr olds with pertussis). She will have titres drawn when she needs blood work for other reasons.

I am glad she did not have the 2, 4, 6 12, 18month shots and 4-6 yr shot. I am glad she did not have the early teen booster and I am glad she will not have to worry about being the one to pass along pertussis to her infants. Natural immunity for the win




"Conclusions and Relevance In this cohort of women with singleton pregnancies that ended in live birth, receipt of Tdap during pregnancy was not associated with increased risk of hypertensive disorders of pregnancy or preterm or SGA birth, although a small but statistically significant increased risk of chorioamnionitis diagnosis was observed."

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.
 
Book and herb loving mama to 2 teens and one young adult.

Last edited by kathymuggle; 07-27-2015 at 01:58 PM.
kathymuggle is offline  
 
#94 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 01:09 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
That doesn't give us any long-term data on developmental disorders, either.
Mirzam, applejuice and 95191 like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#95 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 5,027
Mentioned: 586 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
No they didn't.

The Jama studied offered reassuring data for singleton pregnancy in a very select number of areas, and was pointing out a statistically significant issue with chorioamnionitis. To conclude from this that Tdap is safe in pregnancy is incorrect.

"Conclusions and Relevance In this cohort of women with singleton pregnancies that ended in live birth, receipt of Tdap during pregnancy was not associated with increased risk of hypertensive disorders of pregnancy or preterm or SGA birth, although a small but statistically significant increased risk of chorioamnionitis diagnosis was observed.
From the link:

"We detected an increased risk of being diagnosed with chorioamnionitis following vaccination (adjusted RR, 1.19). However, these results should be interpreted with caution because the magnitude of this risk was small, and we did not observe an increased risk of preterm birth, a major sequela of chorioamnionitis. Thus, the chorioamnionitis risk observed may be due to residual confounding. Additional electronic data were not available to adjust for important chorioamnionitis risk factors in the full cohort, including prolonged rupture of membranes, prolonged labor, or genital tract pathogens. Furthermore, we were unable to evaluate for the possibility of differential epidural use between vaccinated and unvaccinated women.40 It is worth noting that our chart review sample showed that 95% of women with chorioamnionitis had received an epidural.

Another potential explanation is that the findings related to chorioamnionitis reflect heterogeneity in the diagnosis. Chart reviews revealed that a diagnosis of chorioamnionitis had only 50% PPV for having a clinical presentation consistent with chorioamnionitis. When this PPV was applied, the association between Tdap vaccination at 27 and 36 weeks’ gestation and chorioamnionitis was no longer significant. Although maternal influenza vaccination is known to induce a brief nonspecific inflammatory response,41,42 we are not aware of a biological mechanism for Tdap vaccination during pregnancy to increase a woman’s risk of developing clinical chorioamnionitis during delivery."

So, 95% of the women with chorioamnionitis got an epidural, which is a known risk factor for chorioamnionitis. http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-93...586-9/abstract

Also, as they point out, data for many other known risk factors of chorioamnionitis weren't available to adjust for (prolonged rupture of membranes, prolonged labor, etc).

The earth is not flat | Vaccines work | Chemtrails aren't a thing | Climate change is real #standupforscience
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
teacozy is offline  
#96 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 01:48 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,849
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1433 Post(s)
@teacozy

really doesn't mean much when you have a leaky vaccine!
applejuice likes this.
95191 is offline  
#97 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 01:49 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,797
Mentioned: 251 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2596 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
From the link:

"We detected an increased risk of being diagnosed with chorioamnionitis following vaccination (adjusted RR, 1.19). However, these results should be interpreted with caution because the magnitude of this risk was small, and we did not observe an increased risk of preterm birth, a major sequela of chorioamnionitis. Thus, the chorioamnionitis risk observed may be due to residual confounding. Additional electronic data were not available to adjust for important chorioamnionitis risk factors in the full cohort, including prolonged rupture of membranes, prolonged labor, or genital tract pathogens. Furthermore, we were unable to evaluate for the possibility of differential epidural use between vaccinated and unvaccinated women.40 It is worth noting that our chart review sample showed that 95% of women with chorioamnionitis had received an epidural.

.
I read the study - there was a 19% higher risk of chorioamnionitis. 6.1 in vaxxed with tdap during pregnancy to 5.5% in unvaxxed with tdap during pregnancy

I am surprised you bolded the second section. They were unable to unable to evaluate for the possibility of differential epidural use between vaccinated and unvaccinated women. That 95% of women with chorioamnionitis had epidurals means little if that is the baseline rate of epidurals of the women in the study..

What I really find interesting, though, is that the researchers stated their expected results as just fact :no low for gestational age, etc, but did back-flips to try and explain away the increased risk of chorioamnionitis.
applejuice, Deborah and 95191 like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.
 
Book and herb loving mama to 2 teens and one young adult.
kathymuggle is offline  
#98 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 01:53 PM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,797
Mentioned: 251 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2596 Post(s)
Part 3 of 8: Consequences
What Are the Consequences of Chorioamnionitis for Me and My Baby?

Chorioamnionitis can lead to serious complications in both mother and baby and is usually considered a medical emergency. Bacteremia, labor abnormalities, need for cesarean delivery, and heavy blood loss with delivery are the most common complications. Bacteremia (infection in the bloodstream) occurs in 3 to 12% of infected women. In addition, chorioamnionitis also dramatically increases the need for a cesarean section (C-section) delivery. Up to 8% of women who undergo C-section develop a wound infection, and approximately one percent develop a pelvic abscess (collection of pus in the pelvis). Fortunately, maternal death due to infection is extremely rare.
Babies delivered to mothers with chorioamnionitis are in danger of a number of serious complications:
  • about 5 to 10% of infected babies develop pneumonia (lung infection) or bacteremia (however, this is more common in preterm infants);
  • less than 1% of term infants and a slightly higher percentage of preterm infants develop meningitis (infection of the lining of the brain and spinal cord); and
  • although death in term babies is very unusual, up to 15% of infected preterm infants die because of the infection or other complications such as respiratory distress syndrome and bleeding into the brain.
http://www.healthline.com/health/pre...onitis#Causes2
applejuice and 95191 like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.
 
Book and herb loving mama to 2 teens and one young adult.
kathymuggle is offline  
#99 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 03:11 PM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,628
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sortacrispy View Post
I understand what vaccine failure is, I disagree as to its prevalence and what causes it, that's all

And of course you aren't filled with disease and about to explode any second. It's simply that you can unwittingly pass on something like Whooping Cough, even if you are as diligent as possible about avoiding the young, old or potentially immune compromised.
But vaccinated people can spread pertussis to all those groups too. Are they not teaching you that in nursing school?
applejuice and 95191 like this.
samaxtics is offline  
#100 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 03:36 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
The one group not likely to spread pertussis? People who had pertussis before ever being hit with a vaccine. Only way to prevent original antigenic sin due to a crappy vaccine misdirecting the human immune system.
Mirzam, applejuice, 95191 and 3 others like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Deborah; 12-14-2015 at 07:48 PM.
Deborah is online now  
#101 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 04:48 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,849
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1433 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
But vaccinated people can spread pertussis to all those groups too. Are they not teaching you that in nursing school?
Oh come on now samatics, you know what they are teaching! vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate! same mantra! The UN-vaccinated are to be blamed!

what difference does it make?

Quote:
Certainly the major epidemics in 2005, in 2010, and now in 2012 suggest that failure of the DTaP vaccine is a matter of serious concern.
failure DOES happen, just some have other ideas about it! and pertussis is leaky!

but vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate no matter what...................

Quote:
In the interim, we need to use the vaccines we have (DTaP and Tdap [tetanus–diphtheria–acellular pertussis]) in the best ways possible. Of particular concern are the frightening rates of complications and death associated with pertussis in unimmunized young infants. The “cocooning” strategy — vaccinating people who have contact with infants — has been implemented but is often impeded by logistics. Immunizing pregnant women is fundamentally sound because it reduces the risk that the mother will acquire pertussis around the time of delivery, and it gives the infant some protection for perhaps 1 to 2 months. But women who have multiple pregnancies within a few years present a problem, since immunization with a vaccine containing tetanus toxoid (i.e., Tdap) could result in increased local reactions.
- oh, so what!?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmp1209051

http://www.mainlinemedianews.com/art...2099088441.txt

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...Radnor_HS.html

http://fox13now.com/2015/03/27/19-ki...-vaccinations/

http://www.ksbw.com/news/pertussis-o...chool/31881324

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2012/aug/15...es-increasing/

and again, fully vaccinated! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2627963/
95191 is offline  
#102 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 05:35 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 8,479
Mentioned: 164 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2107 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sortacrispy View Post
Guilty of never attending a rally, though I was quite vocal on the FB group for group promoting the bill as a pro-vaccine dissenter to the bill Had it come to a statewide vote I would have voted against the bill.

I guess it's the same way I could have done more RE Gay rights. I am a huge supporter, joined the GSA, voted against Prop 8, donated money to pro Gay rights candidates. I didn't attend any rallies though, and as a straight ally that would have perhaps been helpful.

No good excuse really, I helped where and how I could at the time.
I appreciate that.

I was frustrated by the lack of pro-vaccine voices in the anti-SB277 camp. I know that they're out there, but they were hush-hush. A Facebook comment here and an op-ed there would have helped immensely.

"Hey, I'm passionately pro-vaccine with fully vaccinated children, but you people are way out of line here."

"Look, I want to get children fully vaccinated as much as any pediatrician. But this is really going to backfire and take away parental trust."

Stuff like that. But again, I appreciate your concern for this issue.

I'm the crunchy mom Dr. Amy warned you about.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
#teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RIP old MDC. We miss you!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Turquesa is offline  
#103 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 5,027
Mentioned: 586 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
I read the study - there was a 19% higher risk of chorioamnionitis. 6.1 in vaxxed with tdap during pregnancy to 5.5% in unvaxxed with tdap during pregnancy

I am surprised you bolded the second section. They were unable to unable to evaluate for the possibility of differential epidural use between vaccinated and unvaccinated women. That 95% of women with chorioamnionitis had epidurals means little if that is the baseline rate of epidurals of the women in the study..

What I really find interesting, though, is that the researchers stated their expected results as just fact :no low for gestational age, etc, but did back-flips to try and explain away the increased risk of chorioamnionitis.
I'm not sure if the study states what overall percentage received an epidural (and I don't have time to look right now), but the average in the US is somewhere around 60% IIRC. An epidural rate of 95% would be very unlikely given the sample size and national average.

I highlighted that they were "unable to evaluate for the possibility of differential epidural use between vaccinated and unvaccinated women" because it is a huge confounding variable they weren't able to control for. That's why they mentioned it-along with others like prolonged labor and prolonged rupture of membranes. Those are important points.

That the rate of preterm birth was the same between both groups is more evidence that it is not vaccine related, since preterm birth is a major consequence of chorioamnionitis.

They also point out, "we are not aware of a biological mechanism for Tdap vaccination during pregnancy to increase a woman’s risk of developing clinical chorioamnionitis during delivery."

I'm glad they included the findings, however. It's reassuring to me and puts a damper on the idea that scientists and researchers are all fudging data and deliberately hiding unfavorable vaccine study results

The earth is not flat | Vaccines work | Chemtrails aren't a thing | Climate change is real #standupforscience
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by teacozy; 07-27-2015 at 07:10 PM.
teacozy is offline  
#104 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 06:10 PM
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,849
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1433 Post(s)
Quote:
Of the 1798 women randomized, we excluded 13 multifetal births leaving 1785 for analysis: 1491 had an epidural and 294 did not. Of those with epidural, 8.0% had clinical chorioamnionitis compared with only 1.0% without epidural: unadjusted OR=8.3 (95% CI: 2.6-26); p<0.0001. After multivariable logistic regression, epidural use (adjusted OR 6.3; 1.9-21), multiparity (0.43; 0.32-0.59) and preeclampsia (0.44; 0.21-0.91) were significantly associated with chorioamnionitis (Table). In additional analyses (Table) we adjusted further for duration of labor (a potential reason for the association with epidural and a proxy for number of vaginal exams).
it's in there
applejuice and kathymuggle like this.
95191 is offline  
#105 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 06:15 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
@teacozy
Quote:
I'm glad they included the findings, however. It's reassuring to me and puts a damper on the idea that scientists and researchers are all fudging data and deliberately hiding unfavorable vaccine study results
Yes, of course. They do have to be subtle about how they fudge the data or even the trusting souls might begin to feel some doubt.

See post 1 in this thread https://www.mothering.com/forum/47-va...ded-cases.html for an example of a study where subtle fudging has been very reassuring for the vaccine advocates, but where critics can easily see a major problem.
applejuice and 95191 like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Deborah; 07-27-2015 at 06:26 PM. Reason: to add a link and comment
Deborah is online now  
#106 of 121 Old 07-27-2015, 08:17 PM
 
sortacrispy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Through the Wardrobe
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 178 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
I appreciate that.

I was frustrated by the lack of pro-vaccine voices in the anti-SB277 camp. I know that they're out there, but they were hush-hush. A Facebook comment here and an op-ed there would have helped immensely.

"Hey, I'm passionately pro-vaccine with fully vaccinated children, but you people are way out of line here."

"Look, I want to get children fully vaccinated as much as any pediatrician. But this is really going to backfire and take away parental trust."

Stuff like that. But again, I appreciate your concern for this issue.
Thank you.

Yeah I just felt like

a.) I was uncomfortable that a child's right to an education could be rescinded because of choices his or her parents made

and

b.) Legislation as a first resort seemed extreme.

I think if they were worried about herd immunity, a valid concern, they could have rolled out a vaccination education program or presented free workshops for pregnant women to attend to ask questions. I don't know, anything but jumping right from the first measles outbreak to a new law in 6 months. I honestly feel it sets up even more of an us vs them mentality which helps literally no one, and if anything, makes people on both sides of the issue more entrenched. If after a reasonable period of time when this new program was rolled out (5-10 years) the vaccine rate continued to drop and outbreaks started to occur with frequency, that would have been the time to discuss legislation. I just felt it was too much of a leap too soon.
Turquesa, sciencemum and Nemi27 like this.
sortacrispy is offline  
#107 of 121 Old 07-28-2015, 07:20 AM
 
EMRguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: FEMA Zone 4
Posts: 1,565
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 603 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Yep. That is who it is. They refer to be as the "lie-brarian". Sweet.
damn! i am curious now!
applejuice likes this.
EMRguy is offline  
#108 of 121 Old 07-28-2015, 07:28 AM
 
EMRguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: FEMA Zone 4
Posts: 1,565
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 603 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sortacrispy View Post
No, vaccinated people CAN pass on VPDs one the immunity has waned, definitely. That's one of the reasons they so strongly recommend DTAPs for people around infants or immunocompromised people
Boosters for everyone!
applejuice and 95191 like this.
EMRguy is offline  
#109 of 121 Old 07-28-2015, 08:35 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sophia's Correction
Posts: 9,078
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMRguy View Post
Boosters for everyone!
That is always the suggestion.....

Quote:

Reno County health officials are taking steps to help stall the spread of a whooping cough outbreak before school starts.

The county has more than 70 suspected whooping cough cases.

And The Hutchinson News reports that as of Friday, Reno County had 41 confirmed or probable cases of whooping cough, which accounts for 20 percent of all cases in the state. That was up from 18 on June 29.

Reno County Health Department Director Nick Baldetti says the continued outbreak has health officials concerned about the possibility of a potential "micro-outbreak" once school starts again.

He says the county health department is working with school districts to prepare and hopes to have vaccination clinics set up for Buhler, Haven and Nickerson districts.

Eyewitness News spoke with an official with Hutchinson schools. Ray Hemman tells us they're working with the health department to address the concerns.

The district tells us all of the people who've contracted it have been vaccinated.

The district is hosting a vaccine clinic on August 3rd during enrollment. That clinic runs from 11:00 until 5:00 at HMS-7 (210 E. Avenue A). Parents are asked to bring a copy of the student's immunization record and insurance card.

Hemman says staff are also encouraged to get immunized.
http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/...ounty/34378784

Pointless exercise, those vaccinated have an already corrupted immune response because of the vaccine.
applejuice, 95191 and EMRguy like this.

I am Rhome

Last edited by Mirzam; 07-28-2015 at 08:50 AM.
Mirzam is offline  
#110 of 121 Old 07-29-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 8,479
Mentioned: 164 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2107 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Dinosaur analogy was to demonstrate that the "science was wrong before" trope can be and is used by people to try and defend any anti-scientific belief. It isn't a compelling argument.

Serious question (and I am just assuming you "believe" dinosaurs once existed here) if you were in a discussion with someone on the topic and they used the "science was wrong before" line what would you think? Would it be a compelling argument? Why or why not?
I'm obviously not Kathy, but I'd like to take a stab at this.

For clarity, I am replacing the word science with scientists. There's much equivocation between the two, but science is an academic discipline, and I don't think of academic disciplines as being "right" or "wrong." The people studying them, on the other hand, can readily be either.

So to answer your question, it would depend on the context. It would be fallacious to say, "Scientists have been wrong before, therefore dinosaurs never existed." Or even, "Scientists have been wrong before, therefore vaccines are unsafe."

But it's quite another thing to state my own position on the matter: "Scientists have been wrong before, therefore it is unreasonable and unreliable, when making vaccine decisions, to rely solely on the majority opinions about vaccines simply because they are held by mainstream doctors and scientists."

That doesn't even mean that people like me dismiss everything just because it's an expert-majority view; I recognize that global warming is real, human-induced, and an imminent threat. We just weigh the science perhaps more carefully than the average citizen, and that gets us into trouble sometimes.


I'm the crunchy mom Dr. Amy warned you about.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
#teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RIP old MDC. We miss you!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Turquesa is offline  
#111 of 121 Old 07-30-2015, 06:30 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
I'm uncomfortable when the dichotomy/split is made rigid.

There is a lot of middle ground between total distrust of all scientific authority and unthinking trust of anyone who is wearing a lab coat.

When I studied human anthropology in college, I was shocked at some of the nonsense in the textbook. For example, seriously, the textbook said that women died of puerperal fever because we aren't as good at giving birth as other animals. I think they compared us to mice.

Actually, I can't recall a single college level textbook on any subject that didn't include multiple glaring errors. I was quite happy when I moved into advanced/upper-level classes and didn't have any textbooks to waste time reading.
applejuice likes this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#112 of 121 Old 08-12-2015, 09:12 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
bumping up because this was SUCH a good thread...overall...although there is some stuff I wish we could have skipped!
applejuice likes this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#113 of 121 Old 08-12-2015, 10:47 AM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 8,479
Mentioned: 164 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2107 Post(s)
Thanks for the nudge. I found a fascinating, (albeit overly loquacious), blog post detailing potential break-downs of "scientific consensus." http://theethicalskeptic.com/2015/01...fic-consensus/

Quote:
The job of the small minority of Social Skeptics (in red, but in reality WAY less than 5%) is to shout the previous results loudly, and ensure that for any member of the pivot group (green) to vote in dissent, they had better have a damn good reason to do so. They accomplish this by attacking the dissent group, as denialists, and stupid – unworthy of their careers in science. This is not a poll at all. This is a junta election exercised by a constrained group referendum.
Mirzam, applejuice and Deborah like this.

I'm the crunchy mom Dr. Amy warned you about.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
#teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RIP old MDC. We miss you!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Turquesa is offline  
#114 of 121 Old 08-12-2015, 11:15 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,797
Mentioned: 251 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2596 Post(s)
In so far as scientists speak in one voice, and dissent is not really allowed, then appeal to scientific consensus is the same as an appeal to authority.

I don't actually think all fallacies are wrong. They are sometimes wrong, which means they cannot, defacto, be considered right, but need to be examined on their own merits. Clear as mud?

I believe it is reasonable for a person to rely on authority opinion when making a decision. I do not think it is reasonable to argue that others should weigh authority opinion the same way you do with regard to decisions making.
applejuice and Deborah like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.
 
Book and herb loving mama to 2 teens and one young adult.
kathymuggle is offline  
#115 of 121 Old 08-16-2015, 07:22 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
Currently reading this book



The author worked for Sloan-Kettering and was ordered to participate in a cover up of positive results from animal tests of Laetrile in the 1970s. He quit and has worked since then in a variety of areas, many connected to cancer treatments.

For anyone who believes that "science" usually works well and that the consensus can be trusted...
applejuice likes this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#116 of 121 Old 08-16-2015, 07:26 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
The story is also a good example of a successful conspiracy to bury one treatment while boosting other, more lucrative treatments.

I can see some interesting parallels with Vitamin C, which has amazing potential for saving lives, but is mostly not used because it isn't particularly profitable.
applejuice and SilverMoon010 like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#117 of 121 Old 08-16-2015, 01:48 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
The book is Doctored Results I've gotten to the part where S-K issues a paper where they LIE about who did what. The scientist who got the positive results on Laetrile used a thorough method involving LOOKING at the lung tissue and then having a pathologist look at the same tissue under a microscope. They pretended that he just looked and didn't have a check on his work.

On the other hand, the scientists who "debunked" Laetrile just looked and didn't have a pathologist check their work, but in the paper they LIE and pretend they did.

One of the scientists used a second method, no longer in use, which they pretended was better than the method (still in use) of having a direct view of the tissue with a pathologist reviewing the results.

In other words, they reversed the actual facts. And how did they get away with it? Simple enough. No one wanted to defend Laetrile except a bunch of outsiders AND the 80 year old scientist who had done the research. With no critical examination of the paper, glaring problems were easily ignored.

Hey, someone tell me again about all the checks and balances in the modern system of science!
applejuice likes this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#118 of 121 Old 08-20-2015, 08:23 AM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,628
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Looks like more retractions of more "peer reviewed" studies...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...91439998052452

Quote:
Made-up identities assigned to fake e-mail addresses. Real identities stolen for fraudulent reviews. Study authors who write glowing reviews of their own research, then pass them off as an independent report.

These are the tactics of peer review manipulators, an apparently growing problem in the world of academic publishing.
Quote:
In the latest episode of the fake peer review phenomenon, one of the world’s largest academic publishers, Springer, has retracted 64 articles from 10 of its journals after discovering that their reviews were linked to fake e-mail addresses. The announcement comes nine months after 43 studies were retracted by BioMed Central (one of Springer’s imprints) for the same reason.
samaxtics is offline  
#119 of 121 Old 08-20-2015, 08:46 AM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 8,479
Mentioned: 164 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2107 Post(s)
And then you get the politics of who owns the journals. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0127502

I'm the crunchy mom Dr. Amy warned you about.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
#teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

RIP old MDC. We miss you!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Turquesa is offline  
#120 of 121 Old 08-20-2015, 01:52 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,356
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3199 Post(s)
We've got to remember that vaccine research is always squeaky clean, however. Always.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
Reply


User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Online Users: 1,997

10 members and 1,987 guests
91mj , barnetta , Deborah , idler , KerriB , lauritagoddess , PrayerOFChrist , Realdeal , RhiannonRain , rs3gold55
Most users ever online was 21,860, 06-22-2018 at 08:45 PM.