Canadian scientist calls for moratorium of the HPV vaccine - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 159 Old 10-14-2015, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Canadian scientist calls for moratorium of the HPV vaccine

More sour news for the HPV vaccine, now from Canada. The HPV vaccine has caused quite a stir around the world, hasn't it? It just can't seem to catch a break. The more pushback there is, the less likely these "coincidences" appear to be "coincidences."

Quote:
A Montreal social scientist and the federal agency that awarded her almost $300,000 to study the HPV vaccine are facing criticism after the professor condemned the vaccine and called for a moratorium on its use.

Concordia University’s Genevieve Rail also said there is no proof that the human papillomavirus directly causes cervical cancer, though a German scientist was awarded the Nobel Prize five years ago for discovering the link...

There have been other critiques of the vaccine recently — from sources as diverse as Catholic boards of education to a now-discredited newspaper article — but Rail’s assessment stands out because of her university faculty position and federal grant to examine the issue.

She and Lippman voiced similar views at the World Congress on Public Health in India last February, heading a workshop that encouraged participants to be “on the offensive against the vaccine,” and suggesting that “politicians are paid off” to adopt the programs.

Rail said in an interview on Thursday that she has no regrets about her public commentary, and hopes her voice will help offset the “dominant discourse” on the vaccine. Among the 170 interviews that formed the core of her four-year study were some with parents who believed the shots had caused serious side effects.

“I’m sort of raising a red flag, out of respect for what I’ve found in my own study, and for the despair of parents who had totally perfect 12-year-olds who are now in their beds, too tired to go to school,” she said. “Yes, we’re going against the grain, and we are going against those who are believed, i.e. doctors and nurses and people in public health.”
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...nt-to-study-it

This is an open letter (in French) explaining the reason for the urgent call for moratorium on vaccination against HPV vaccine. (I translated most, not all, of the article into English.):

Quote:
Adverse effects: There are no reliable longitudinal research on the safety of HPV vaccine, but serious side effects appear to present a significant percentage of girls vaccinated (eg, Japan, 3200 100 000 girls / year). Scientific articles and reports on the dangers of the vaccine have emerged around the world in response to a disproportionate number of serious problems. In the US, the government system that can report adverse vaccine reactions (VAERS) has identified, as of July 2015, over 40 000 cases of girls and seriously affected women after receiving the HPV vaccine ( including 232 deaths, most of which remained in 1300 and nearly 8,000 disabilities who have not recovered). Denmark has recently opened five Regional Evaluation Centers serious adverse effects related to HPV vaccine (1200 girls have registered), while in Japan, Israel and Italy, the recommendation for the anti-vaccine HPV has been removed.

A deficient pharmacovigilance system in Quebec and Canada, where girls have been severely affected by the HPV vaccine , Pharmacovigilance system was deficient . Our study underway ( funded by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research ) reported on parents who , following the death or serious health problems of their daughter, had no listening by professionals health, all convinced of the safety of the vaccine and thus refusing to report adverse reactions .

These three reasons alone should be enough to convince our ministry of health of the urgency of a moratorium . But there is more.

A false priority in public health: using hype, Merck Frosst convinced the health professionals and the public that cervical cancer was a priority when it is not in the list of the 50 leading causes of death among women in Quebec (Statistics Canada, 2015), or the top 10 in the world (WHO, 2011). Through screening with the Pap test, the incidence of cervical cancer and mortality from this cancer are clearly declining in the West, including in Canada where only 1.6 women per 100 000 / year die of this cancer (Statistics Canada, 2015);

An unknown mechanism: the cervical cancer takes 20-40 years to develop. There are more than 100 HPV types and 12 types have been identified as "high risk" because they are associated with cervical cancer. However, the vast majority of girls and women with high-risk HPV do not develop cancer because these HPV can not, by themselves, cause cancer. Moreover, in 90% of cases, HPV disappear naturally from the body within two years following infection.

An unproven vaccine efficacy: since cervical cancer takes decades to develop, there is no study on the effectiveness of the vaccine. So far, we instead examined the impact of the vaccine on the incidence of precancerous lesions. Now, according to these studies, Gardasil vaccine is not effective in reducing the overall incidence of precancerous lesions of the cervix. Worse, clinical trials indicate that when the variants of HPV 16 and 18 are already installed in girls or women, vaccination with Gardasil may increase their risk of precancerous lesions.

A fraudulent marketing: accelerated approval of Gardasil is the result of fraudulent marketing of Merck Frosst has created from scratch a market for the vaccine, presented as "anticancer", generating fears of a health crisis Public.

A hasty approval: Gardasil received a hasty Health Canada approval since it was approved before the studies are completed on the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

Across the globe , young girls vaccinated are the protagonists in the heart of a drama which only the pharmaceutical companies have the secret. At the very least , our Minister of Health should impose a moratorium that independent research be undertaken regarding a vaccine believed to cause extremely serious side effects. Current research are not independent or use time criteria (too short ) or symptoms ( too small ) that does not detect the majority of young girls struggling with serious side effects
http://www.ledevoir.com/societe/sant...a-un-moratoire
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#2 of 159 Old 10-14-2015, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post
More sour news for the HPV vaccine, now from Canada. The HPV vaccine has caused quite a stir around the world, hasn't it? It just can't seem to catch a break. The more pushback there is, the less likely these "coincidences" appear to be "coincidences."



http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...nt-to-study-it

This is an open letter (in French) explaining the reason for the urgent call for moratorium on vaccination against HPV vaccine. (I translated most, not all, of the article into English.):



http://www.ledevoir.com/societe/sant...a-un-moratoire

Don't worry I'm sure they (PRO agenda) will find a way quickly to go after & name call. SkepticalRaptor where are you? Orac??? Dorit?

We need to stop "scaring" people with all these "science" nonsense!

Vaccinate!!! These are countries are just being silly!

The "science" is settled isn't it???


Thank you for posting this.

I find Babble Fish really good for translation.
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#3 of 159 Old 10-14-2015, 09:02 PM
 
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Well, a commenter on the article in French (translated to English) included link to sceptical raptor:
Quote:
Misinformation
I went myself Gardasil monograph (http://www.merck.ca/assets/fr/pdf/products/GARDASI and I invite the reader to study the pages 7 to 13. Article above, how are reported side effects do not correspond at all to the monograph. For example (page 11), the 39 reported deaths are compared in vaccinated and those who have had the placebo. 9 deaths by automobile accident, including 5 4 Gardasil and placebo. 8 suicides, 2 and 6 placebo Gardasil. And so on ... The observed effects are much the same in both groups. There's nothing to pull the alarm.

I did a search on VAERS (http://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html) to try to confirm the words of the article.

First, VAERS begins with a serious warning about the use of data (English translation): "In general, a report to VAERS do not prove that the vaccine has caused the event described it only confirms. the event is after the vaccine. VAERS does not require proof that the event was caused by the vaccine for inclusion in the database. " The article presents the data in a way that suggests that these VAERS data are attributable to the vaccine.

Then my search produced 32 389 events with 2186 are denoted seriously. We are far from the 40,000 people seriously affected section.

I expected better from academic researchers.

Those who would like to take some time to deepen the science could go here in English: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...king-gardasil/
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One of the more interesting snippets from the national Post article:

"The $270,000 that Rail — who has a doctorate in kinesiology — received is to examine HPV vaccination “discourses” and their effect on teenagers, using in part interviews and drawings.
“This is akin to funding research that purports to show tobacco smoking does not cause lung cancer,” charged Eduardo Franco, head of cancer epidemiology at McGill University. “And that tobacco cessation, rather than helping reduce risk, is actually causing harm … CIHR would not fund such a study, would it?”
Marc Steben, a Montreal family doctor and chair of the Canadian Network on HPV Prevention, was more blunt.
“I don’t know who was on her (grant awarding) jury,” he said. “Someone was really sleeping.”


It seems to me that the two doctors quoted above think that only research that confirms or further supports what mainstream science already believes to be true should be given grants. This is pretty scary.

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#5 of 159 Old 10-15-2015, 05:23 AM
 
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....also, great insightful comments in the National Post article,

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#6 of 159 Old 10-15-2015, 09:28 AM
 
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I got to the point where she said there is no proof that HPV causes cervical cancer last night and just stopped reading right there. Is she also an HIV/AIDS denialist? How embarrassing. She has zero credibility at this point.

Decided to skim some of the article today. Looks like her entire "study" boiled down to interviewing and listening to anecdotal stories where parents simply "believe" the vaccines caused issues. Listening to a bunch of anecdotal stories is not scientific evidence. Did she even bother to try and find out what the background rate of these symptoms are? How many parents believed ice cream caused their children's polio? How many people used to believe that breathing in "bad air" from sewage caused Malaria? (Malaria literally means "bad air").

Again, this is known as the Post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

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I got to the point where she said there is no proof that HPV causes cervical cancer last night and just stopped reading right there. Is she also an HIV/AIDS denialist? How embarrassing. She has zero credibility at this point.

Decided to skim some of the article today. Looks like her entire "study" boiled down to interviewing and listening to anecdotal stories where parents simply "believe" the vaccines caused issues. Listening to a bunch of anecdotal stories is not scientific evidence. Did she even bother to try and find out what the background rate of these symptoms are? How many parents believed ice cream caused their children's polio? How many people used to believe that breathing in "bad air" from sewage caused Malaria? (Malaria literally means "bad air").

Again, this is known as the Post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.
Does everyone who gets infected with HPV end up with cancer? No. Therefore there is not a direct line between exposure and infection and cancer.

Her real crime? Listening to the stories of girls with possible reactions.

Thanks for outlining the correct process Teacozy.

1) Don't listen
2) Look for the "background" rate of any sort of illnesses which even remotely resemble the symptoms being reported and make the reports vanish
3) Come up with opportunities to mock and disparage the parents and girls who are describing symptoms following the vaccine: "How many parents believed ice cream caused their children's polio? How many people used to believe that breathing in "bad air" from sewage caused Malaria? (Malaria literally means "bad air")."

Somehow that process doesn't come across as scientific, either. But it is a pretty good way of defending a vaccine.

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Does everyone who gets infected with HPV end up with cancer? No. Therefore there is not a direct line between exposure and infection and cancer.

Her real crime? Listening to the stories of girls with possible reactions.

Thanks for outlining the correct process Teacozy.

1) Don't listen
2) Look for the "background" rate of any sort of illnesses which even remotely resemble the symptoms being reported and make the reports vanish
3) Come up with opportunities to mock and disparage the parents and girls who are describing symptoms following the vaccine: "How many parents believed ice cream caused their children's polio? How many people used to believe that breathing in "bad air" from sewage caused Malaria? (Malaria literally means "bad air")."

Somehow that process doesn't come across as scientific, either. But it is a pretty good way of defending a vaccine.
Yes. It makes much more sense to put faith into studies filled with conflicts of interest and revolving doors, all the while with their hands in the pot, while diminishing those who have true concerns about the safety of the vaccine and are looking to protect the public from more harm. No one can dare question the safety of vaccines
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Does everyone who gets infected with HPV end up with cancer? No. Therefore there is not a direct line between exposure and infection and cancer.

Her real crime? Listening to the stories of girls with possible reactions.

Thanks for outlining the correct process Teacozy.

1) Don't listen
2) Look for the "background" rate of any sort of illnesses which even remotely resemble the symptoms being reported and make the reports vanish
3) Come up with opportunities to mock and disparage the parents and girls who are describing symptoms following the vaccine: "How many parents believed ice cream caused their children's polio? How many people used to believe that breathing in "bad air" from sewage caused Malaria? (Malaria literally means "bad air")."

Somehow that process doesn't come across as scientific, either. But it is a pretty good way of defending a vaccine.
Not only is that not what she said (nor is anyone suggesting that everyone who gets HPV will develop cancer), that is absurd logic. " Does everyone who smokes end up with lung cancer? No. Therefore there is not a direct line between exposure and cancer." See how silly that is? But like I said, that was not her statement. She said there is no proof that HPV causes cervical cancer which is completely false.

Looking for the background rate of illnesses is not to make the reports "vanish". It is so we can tell whether the numbers are higher in people vaccinated vs what we would expect to occur without vaccines at all. For example, we know that the background rate of miscarriage is somewhere around 20% of pregnancies. We also know that the flu vaccine is not going to magically make miscarriages stop happening. So when you have hundreds or even thousands of women telling anecdotal stories of getting the flu vaccine and then miscarrying, the only way we can tell whether the vaccine may be responsible is studying pregnant women who got the flu vaccine and determining whether they are miscarrying at a rate higher than what we would expect by chance - ie the background rate. This information is incredibly important and the fact that non-vaxers seem so hell bent on not wanting to find out what those numbers are is pretty telling.

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some vaccine trials use a background rate that is their supposed placebo, but it's really alum adjuvant...not exactly a true scientific background rate representative of the whole populous. Yet, we are supposed to trust their research to furnish the background rate that is clearly tainted...?

All the while they're saying "see look, the vaccine is safe because our 'placebo' proves the background rate for these reported ailments is so close to the vaccine therefore it isn't the cause."

On the other hand, we have girls disabled and dying. Dying! Over a vaccine that science doesn't want to look into because we simply can't open our ears to anecdotal stories.

What a mess.

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Not only is that not what she said (nor is anyone suggesting that everyone who gets HPV will develop cancer), that is absurd logic. " Does everyone who smokes end up with lung cancer? No. Therefore there is not a direct line between exposure and cancer." See how silly that is? But like I said, that was not her statement. She said there is no proof that HPV causes cervical cancer which is completely false.

Let us consider this for a moment. A vanishingly small percentage of women will end up with cervical cancer, even though the infection rate is quite high. http://www.livescience.com/3093-smok...-examined.html

Turns out that cancer isn't the main cause of death in smokers, which probably helped when the tobacco companies were trying to cover up the connection.

Compared to smoking (come to think of it, smoking contributes to the likelihood of developing cervical cancer, probably more than skipping the vaccine), catching HPV doesn't add a lot of risk for most young girls or young women. There is a connection between HPV and cancer, but only with a lot of "ifs" between point A and point Z.

Looking for the background rate of illnesses is not to make the reports "vanish". It is so we can tell whether the numbers are higher in people vaccinated vs what we would expect to occur without vaccines at all. For example, we know that the background rate of miscarriage is somewhere around 20% of pregnancies. We also know that the flu vaccine is not going to magically make miscarriages stop happening. So when you have hundreds or even thousands of women telling anecdotal stories of getting the flu vaccine and then miscarrying, the only way we can tell whether the vaccine may be responsible is studying pregnant women who got the flu vaccine and determining whether they are miscarrying at a rate higher than what we would expect by chance - ie the background rate. This information is incredibly important and the fact that non-vaxers seem so hell bent on not wanting to find out what those numbers are is pretty telling.
That works when you have a very straightforward incident like a miscarriage. You either miscarry or you don't miscarry. But the sorts of weird illnesses that are hitting these teens following HPV vaccines? How in the world do you find out the background rate of something that looks sort of like POTS, but according to the Danish doctors doesn't exactly fit. If you call it POTS and consider the background rate in teens, and it isn't actually POTS, you might ignore a genuine signal and condemn thousands of teens to chronic illness unnecessarily.

Ditto calling the constellation of symptoms reported from Japan "chronic fatigue" and then comparing it to the background rate of this illness turned up in phone surveys in the US. Even on the basis of cultural differences, that is very sloppy.

The only way to find out what is going on is to actually study the particular cases, identify as carefully as possible the range of symptoms and then see if there IS a background rate of any illness affecting teens that looks at all like this set of problems.

But studying actual cases seems to be frowned on by the HPV vaccine supporters. Can you find a study (other than the two Danish articles that have been published, and, surprise, attacked) that is investigating the actual cases? Why, again, is studying case histories frowned on? True, you cannot determine incidence from case histories and you cannot prove that the vaccine caused the problems, but it is an obvious basic foundation step before you can look at background rates. Isn't it?

HOW are you going to determine background rates if you don't know what the actual problem looks like? And how can you figure out what the problem looks like if you don't look at the sick girls?

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That works when you have a very straightforward incident like a miscarriage. You either miscarry or you don't miscarry. But the sorts of weird illnesses that are hitting these teens following HPV vaccines? How in the world do you find out the background rate of something that looks sort of like POTS, but according to the Danish doctors doesn't exactly fit. If you call it POTS and consider the background rate in teens, and it isn't actually POTS, you might ignore a genuine signal and condemn thousands of teens to chronic illness unnecessarily.

Ditto calling the constellation of symptoms reported from Japan "chronic fatigue" and then comparing it to the background rate of this illness turned up in phone surveys in the US. Even on the basis of cultural differences, that is very sloppy.

The only way to find out what is going on is to actually study the particular cases, identify as carefully as possible the range of symptoms and then see if there IS a background rate of any illness affecting teens that looks at all like this set of problems.

But studying actual cases seems to be frowned on by the HPV vaccine supporters. Can you find a study (other than the two Danish articles that have been published, and, surprise, attacked) that is investigating the actual cases? Why, again, is studying case histories frowned on? True, you cannot determine incidence from case histories and you cannot prove that the vaccine caused the problems, but it is an obvious basic foundation step before you can look at background rates. Isn't it?

HOW are you going to determine background rates if you don't know what the actual problem looks like? And how can you figure out what the problem looks like if you don't look at the sick girls?
There is no single test like a blood test to diagnose a person with conditions like Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue syndrome, etc. It is diagnosed based on symptoms. So it is relevant to look at conditions that fit the symptoms these girls are experiencing. Juvenile Fibromyaglia fits a lot of the symptoms. Fatigue, pain, headaches, etc. It can be extremely debilitating and Mayo Clinic says it is estimated that 2-6% of children are affected by Fibromyalgia, mostly adolescent girls between the ages of 13-15. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...n/con-20093409

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#13 of 159 Old 10-16-2015, 05:19 AM
 
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There is no single test like a blood test to diagnose a person with conditions like Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue syndrome, etc. It is diagnosed based on symptoms. So it is relevant to look at conditions that fit the symptoms these girls are experiencing. Juvenile Fibromyaglia fits a lot of the symptoms. Fatigue, pain, headaches, etc. It can be extremely debilitating and Mayo Clinic says it is estimated that 2-6% of children are affected by Fibromyalgia, mostly adolescent girls between the ages of 13-15. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...n/con-20093409
Just to illustrate the point further, there are tons of results when you put in the search terms "gardasil and fibromyalgia" where girls complaining of these kinds of debilitating symptoms were later diagnosed with fibromyalgia. Literally the first link I clicked on goes through the symptoms this girl was experiencing "Within days she began having severe daily headaches and insomnia ensued from there. Over the summer she was hospitalized several times to help with pain, nausea, vomiting, and lack of sleep. At this point, the doctors diagnosed her with migraines.

She missed the entire last quarter of her freshman year but was an excellent student who had maintained good enough grades to pass her classes. She had to quit gymnastics because of the pain. She missed her entire sophomore year of school but had a tutor come into our home – she barely passed most of her courses and ended up having to drop some classes due to inability to keep up."

She then adds "She has now been officially medically diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic daily headache with frequent migraine & dysmenorrhea. - See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/gar....giRnhfGW.dpuf

She notes in the link that it was diagnosed based on symptoms and the fact that nothing else fits which is how a person typically gets a diagnosis of Fibromyalgia since there isn't one single test that can be done that can say "Ok. This is what it is".

This doctor says that he thinks that a lot of what these girls are experiencing is fibromyalgia as well "Dr Martinez-Lavin said PoTS and fibromyalgia are among the diseases he believes have developed after HPV vaccination, and that clinicians should be aware of the possible association between HPV vaccination and the development of these “difficult to diagnose” painful syndromes." (Of course there is no evidence that this is true, I am just illustrating the point that these kids of debilitating symptoms do indeed fit a fibromyalgia diagnosis) http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-10286876.html

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@teacozy , thanks for illustrating quite well how "background" rates and tricky to diagnose conditions can be used to dismiss these illnesses which follow HPV vaccination.

Unless there are studies of the actual cases, there is no way to tell if they match up well or poorly with the possible diagnoses. Sorta like isn't science.

Case histories are entirely appropriate for problems arising after vaccinations and should be published and scrutinized.

Among other questions:

could the vaccines be triggering conditions? Or making them significantly worse?

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#15 of 159 Old 10-16-2015, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just to illustrate the point further, there are tons of results when you put in the search terms "gardasil and fibromyalgia" where girls complaining of these kinds of debilitating symptoms were later diagnosed with fibromyalgia. Literally the first link I clicked on goes through the symptoms this girl was experiencing "Within days she began having severe daily headaches and insomnia ensued from there. Over the summer she was hospitalized several times to help with pain, nausea, vomiting, and lack of sleep. At this point, the doctors diagnosed her with migraines.

She missed the entire last quarter of her freshman year but was an excellent student who had maintained good enough grades to pass her classes. She had to quit gymnastics because of the pain. She missed her entire sophomore year of school but had a tutor come into our home – she barely passed most of her courses and ended up having to drop some classes due to inability to keep up."

She then adds "She has now been officially medically diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic daily headache with frequent migraine & dysmenorrhea. - See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/gar....giRnhfGW.dpuf

She notes in the link that it was diagnosed based on symptoms and the fact that nothing else fits which is how a person typically gets a diagnosis of Fibromyalgia since there isn't one single test that can be done that can say "Ok. This is what it is".

This doctor says that he thinks that a lot of what these girls are experiencing is fibromyalgia as well "Dr Martinez-Lavin said PoTS and fibromyalgia are among the diseases he believes have developed after HPV vaccination, and that clinicians should be aware of the possible association between HPV vaccination and the development of these “difficult to diagnose” painful syndromes." (Of course there is no evidence that this is true, I am just illustrating the point that these kids of debilitating symptoms do indeed fit a fibromyalgia diagnosis) http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-10286876.html
Well. Since you're stuck on fibromyalgia, let's talk about that. You do realize they have no idea what causes fibromyalgia right? It's a diagnosis created as a means of generalizing a wide range of symptoms into one box, that they have absolutely no idea what is causing them. It's a diagnosis they throw out there when they can't figure out what else it could be.

Below are what they are exploring into the causes of fibromyalgia, with further research continuing. So @teacozy , since you continue to speak about fibromylagia and seem to think fibromyalgia can in no way be linked to vaccination, can you please explain how you come to that conclusion when researchers haven't even figured it out? Considering they found a plausible link between chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and vaccines, I'd say you're overzealous with your claims that the vaccine is not to blame:

Quote:
This study suggests that in some cases CFS and FM can be temporally related to immunization, as part of ASIA syndrome. The appearance of adverse event during immunization, the presence of autoimmune susceptibility and higher titers of autoantibodies all can be suggested as risk factors. ASIA criteria were fulfilled in all patients eluding the plausible link between ASIA and CFS/FM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25427994

[quote]

Like @Deborah said, it makes no sense that they aren't looking at each girls' case individually to distinguish what's going on, because something is obviously going on. That in itself is very telling that they are afraid to open that can of worms. If the enthusiasts want credibility they better put in the work.

Quote:
The cause of fibromyalgia is unknown.

Studies suggest that an injury, trauma or infection may affect the central nervous system’s response to pain. Some researchers believe that trauma leads to biochemical changes in the muscles, and later, the central nervous system, leading to chronic pain. Others believe that an injury to the central nervous system interferes with brain wave patterns related to pain. Still others believe hormonal changes or infections, such as a flu virus, may trigger fibromyalgia.

Some studies have suggested that people with fibromyalgia have abnormal levels of different chemicals in their blood or the fluid in the brain and spine that help transmit and intensify pain signals to and from the brain. There also is evidence that the central nervous system’s ability to inhibit pain is impaired in these people...What does seem to be true is that all of these conditions may contribute to fibromyalgia for different reasons
http://www.niams.nih.gov/health_info/fibromyalgia/

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[quote=SilverMoon010;19089082]Well. Since you're stuck on fibromyalgia, let's talk about that. You do realize they have no idea what causes fibromyalgia right? It's a diagnosis created as a means of generalizing a wide range of symptoms into one box, that they have absolutely no idea what is causing them. It's a diagnosis they throw out there when they can't figure out what else it could be.

Below are what they are exploring into the causes of fibromyalgia, with further research continuing. So @teacozy , since you continue to speak about fibromylagia and seem to think fibromyalgia can in no way be linked to vaccination, can you please explain how you come to that conclusion when researchers haven't even figured it out? Considering they found a plausible link between chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and vaccines, I'd say you're overzealous with your claims that the vaccine is not to blame:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25427994

Quote:

Like @Deborah said, it makes no sense that they aren't looking at each girls' case individually to distinguish what's going on, because something is obviously going on. That in itself is very telling that they are afraid to open that can of worms. If the enthusiasts want credibility they better put in the work.



http://www.niams.nih.gov/health_info/fibromyalgia/
I knew as soon as I read the words ASIA that at least one of the authors was going to be anti-vaccine since that is basically a made up syndrome not widely accepted by medical doctors. And yuppppp....recognized Shoenfeld right off the bat. This "study" basically looked at the medical records of 19 people who developed CFS/Fibromyalgia sometime after getting a vaccine. They essentially concluded that in "some cases" there was a temporal (not causal) association between vaccination and CFS/fibromyalgia as part of ASIA syndrome. Ok...??? This is weak-sauce evidence, sorry.

And yes, they do not know for sure yet what causes fibromyalgia (this is true for a ton of conditions) that does not mean we cannot determine a background rate of the condition. It existed well before Gardasil was on the market. There are tons of miscarriages that don't have an explanation, either. That doesn't mean it is impossible to test whether a vaccine given during pregnancy causes miscarriages.

This would be a pretty straight forward study:

Look at thousands of girls who received the Gardasil vaccine and compare them to thousands that didn't. Then look and see if there is a difference in Fibromyalgia diagnoses between the two groups. I fully support such a study, for the record.
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@teacozy wrote
Quote:
Look at thousands of girls who received the Gardasil vaccine and compare them to thousands that didn't. Then look and see if there is a difference in Fibromyalgia diagnoses between the two groups. I fully support such a study, for the record.
I would support a study too, if they actually looked at the individual cases rather than just doing a count.

Things that need to be considered:

duration of illness
severity of illness
possible triggers
other symptoms that don't fit with fibromyalgia

Quote:
I knew as soon as I read the words ASIA that at least one of the authors was going to be anti-vaccine since that is basically a made up syndrome not widely accepted by medical doctors. And yuppppp....recognized Shoenfeld right off the bat.
Well of course it isn't widely accepted by medical doctors. And calling Shoenfeld "anti-vaccine" because he is raising concerns about aluminum is silly. He was a perfectly respectable scientist and researcher until he began looking into problems following vaccines, now he is being attacked for doing research that is inconvenient for Merck. I will give you credit for providing at least a superficial criticism of the actual study rather than JUST attacking the author.

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I knew as soon as I read the words ASIA that at least one of the authors was going to be anti-vaccine since that is basically a made up syndrome not widely accepted by medical doctors. And yuppppp....recognized Shoenfeld right off the bat. This "study" basically looked at the medical records of 19 people who developed CFS/Fibromyalgia sometime after getting a vaccine. They essentially concluded that in "some cases" there was a temporal (not causal) association between vaccination and CFS/fibromyalgia as part of ASIA syndrome. Ok...??? This is weak-sauce evidence, sorry.

And yes, they do not know for sure yet what causes fibromyalgia (this is true for a ton of conditions) that does not mean we cannot determine a background rate of the condition. It existed well before Gardasil was on the market. There are tons of miscarriages that don't have an explanation, either. That doesn't mean it is impossible to test whether a vaccine given during pregnancy causes miscarriages..
There are new findings regarding fibromyalgia and its link to small fiber neuropathy:

Quote:
First, the researchers wanted to explore whether the demyelination of large fibers (bigger nerves,) found in the earlier study, is caused by autoimmunity. Then, they also wanted to explore small fiber neuropathy, which has been suggested by other studies to be a part of fibromyalgia.

Small fiber neuropathy is painful damage to structures in the of the skin, organs, and peripheral nerves that provide sensation and help regulate automatic functions like heart rate and body temperature. Researchers were interested in it because it's known that small fiber neuropathy is sometimes associated with demyelination lesions on large fibers.

They found indicators of small fiber neuropathy, including diminished feeling in the lower legs. Also tested were multiple markers of immune activation and autoimmune activity.

Researchers discovered high indicators of small fiber neuropathy and therefore large fiber lesions, in the legs of people with fibromyalgia. They also found that these indicators, especially in the calf, appear to be linked to a marker of immune activation (interleukine-2R.)

They concluded that small fiber neuropathy likely contributes to our pain, and that some of our pain comes from immune-system activity, such as autoimmunity.
http://chronicfatigue.about.com/b/20...yelinating.htm

So, linking fibromyalgia and immune system activity. Damage to nerves causing diminished sensitivity to lower legs makes sense in the case of these many, many girls who are experiencing tingling and numbness in their legs after HPV vaccination, including stabbing pains. I am not a doctor, just looking into criteria that may or may not fit descriptions of complaints, which is what the "experts" should be doing.

There were also cases found post vaccination of small fiber neuropathy:

Quote:
All patients' symptoms have improved, but persist. We conclude that an acute or subacute, post-vaccination small fiber neuropathy may occur and follow a chronic course.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19808027

Neurotoxic medications have been found to cause small fiber neuropathy. Small fiber neuropathy causes a range of symptoms, besides pain, including fainting, stabbing pain, pins and needles, lightheadedness etc.

There is a lot we aren't going to understand. Do you understand how vaccination does or does not impact the prevalence of small fiber neuropathy? That is the point here. How can you deny anything at this point? There is a lot researchers don't understand but are piecing together, sometimes too late. They have not been conducting studies on the cause of small fiber neuropathy via vaccination. Now is the time to study this further, now that thousands are being harmed. The denial that vaccines can in no way cause these issues in these girls, without even understanding what causes fibromyalgia or other similar disorders, is beyond belief and is really disappointing and disheartening to know this is how real issues are being treated.

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Among other questions:

could the vaccines be triggering conditions? Or making them significantly worse?
Considering they find those with POTS, which has been evident in girls after HPV vaccination, to have underlying small fiber neuropathy as well, in which they are now discovering fibromyalgia is correlated to small fiber neuropathy, in which there are questions whether small fiber neuropathy is linked to vaccination, and chronic fatigue being linked to immune deficiencies, I'd say these are extremely valid and valuable questions. There is absolutely no way to determine how vaccines, which contain a considerable amount of adjuvants (not knowing in which manner how they are affecting the individual) will affect anyone who has an unknown underlying condition, which is why we will never have an accurate number as to how many people vaccines have the ability to harm undercover.

Quote:
The postural tachycardia syndrome (POTS) is defined as an exaggerated heart rate in the upright position with orthostatic intolerance. Some patients with POTS have an underlying small fiber neuropathy
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content...tracts/S37.005
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I knew as soon as I read the words ASIA that at least one of the authors was going to be anti-vaccine since that is basically a made up syndrome not widely accepted by medical doctors. And yuppppp....recognized Shoenfeld right off the bat.
I take it that the only acceptable studies and its authors are the ones that claim the vaccine is harmless? I'd say those studies showing that at this point are questionable until further information is obtained on these cases.

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Yehuda Shoenfeld has published masses of work on autoimmunity

http://www.pubfacts.com/author/Yehuda+Shoenfeld

http://www.omicsonline.com/editor-bi...uda_Shoenfeld/

Quote:
His clinical and scientific works focus on autoimmune and rheumatic diseases, and he has published more than 1700 papers in journals such as New Eng J Med, Nature, Lancet, Proc Nat Acad Scie, J Clin Invest, J Immunol, Blood, FASEB, J Exp Med, Circulation, Cancer and others. His articles have had over 31,000 citations. He has written more than three hundred and fifty chapters in books, and has authored and edited 25 books, some of which became cornerstones in science and clinical practice, such as "The Mosaic of Autoimmunity", "Infections and Autoimmunity" and the textbook "Autoantibodies" and "Diagnostic criteria of autoimmune diseases",
methinks someone has been taking skeptical rapture a bit too seriously without doing any independent research on people.

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This would be a pretty straight forward study:

Look at thousands of girls who received the Gardasil vaccine and compare them to thousands that didn't. Then look and see if there is a difference in Fibromyalgia diagnoses between the two groups. I fully support such a study, for the record.[/QUOTE]

Amen! Let's do that!

Does anybody know what the adverse event reporting for this vaccine looks like in the male population? I can't find anything that is HPV/male specific.
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#23 of 159 Old 10-16-2015, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Amen! Let's do that!

Does anybody know what the adverse event reporting for this vaccine looks like in the male population? I can't find anything that is HPV/male specific.
Yes! In the meantime of studying the vaccinated versus those not vaccinated against HPV, let's also look specifically at those who claim the vaccine has caused them the onset of their newfound spontaneous disorders. Looking at those individuals may help gather reasons and causes as to why specific individuals are suspeptible to reactions to the vaccine. Don't we want to find this out if the vaccine is causing reactions to a percentage of people who are for one reason or another suspeptible to serious reactions? (Talking to the enthusiasts here)

Let's look at their histories, any previous infections, major illnesses, complaints of localized or widespread pain previously, previous activities of daily living (normal, no pain during activities?), let's look at their reactions to the HPV vaccine, any fainting, adverse events directly after vaccination, persistent problems like fevers, recurrent headaches attributable to the vaccine, and let's look at the timeline of subsequent complaints after vaccination, such as their activities of daily living thereafter (were they diminished partly or totally and how soon after vaccination?), if pain didn't start immediately after vaccination when did it occur, etc., and did it worsen after the second, third shot, as well if they chose to continue? This is not complicated!! Why are people having to beg for this information?

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I've been looking at David Healy, who discusses in detail the advantages and disadvantages of clinical trials versus individual case reports in relation to causality. Healy D (2011). Science, rhetoric and the causality of adverse events. Int J Risk & Safety in Medicine 24, 1-14. doi: 10.3233/JRS-2011-534

It isn't simple, but basically clinical trials favor the drug companies in legal cases and they have successfully to this point managed to tip the legal balance in that direction.

I suspect that this is where some of the disparagement of case reports might be arising. It isn't necessarily sound, however.

For example, if a girl received Gardasil and became ill, got a bit better, received a second dose of Gardasil and got sicker again, such a series of events would, in the past, have been considered as pretty good evidence of a connection between the treatment and the illness. Nowadays, as we can see in many threads on this forum and elsewhere in articles and discussions, case histories, no matter what the contents, just don't matter. They are to be avoided, in fact.

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Yep, collecting individual case studies has become 'anecdotal'. What the hell happened to science?
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Yep, collecting individual case studies has become 'anecdotal'. What the hell happened to science?
Just finished reading "On the Move" which is a sort of autobiography by Oliver Sacks.

His work was ALL about case studies. He picked up on a lot of interesting and useful material that way. One of the things he talks about is his friendships with scientists who were doing cutting edge research. They got a lot out of his individual investigations of patients. His work was not just about finding the "right" drug.

Fascinating book. What an odd and fascinating personality.

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I will have to check it out. thx!
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We can't determine causality looking at case reports. We just can't. I know non-vaxers put a lot of stock into anecdotal stories, but good science doesn't work that way. Anecdotes can be a good jumping off point for a large study but in and of themselves are meaningless. We have to have a large scale peer reviewed study to determine whether there is a causal relationship.

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We can't determine causality looking at case reports. We just can't. I know non-vaxers put a lot of stock into anecdotal stories, but good science doesn't work that way. Anecdotes can be a good jumping off point for a large study but in and of themselves are meaningless. We have to have a large scale peer reviewed study to determine whether there is a causal relationship.
Yea like all those anecdotal flu threads you post! I feel the same way- they are full of it too!

Somehow it doesn't stop you from post non-science threads to suite your PRO agenda. Why is that?
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Yea like all those anecdotal flu threads you post! I feel the same way- they are full of it too!

Somehow it doesn't stop you from post non-science threads to suite your PRO agenda. Why is that?
There is no question as to whether the flu virus is causally linked to the flu like there is for the many conditions non-vaxers attribute to vaccines. That is the difference.

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