Medical system fails, turns families against vaccines - Mothering Forums

 275Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Medical system fails, turns families against vaccines

The stories always start with families who are willing to vaccinate. Perhaps they want to spread the vaccines out, but hey, they walk into a doctor's office or a clinic, ready to get at least one vaccine.

So how do they end up so darn angry and distrustful and feeling betrayed?

http://vaccine-injury.info/about.cfm

Quote:
Christina wrote "I argued with the nurse practitioner for 30-45 minutes. They would not split the shots up! They bullied me, told me I was retarded, told me he needed all the shots that day, told me they could not split the shots up, told me it absolutely would not hurt him! He was injected with 4 needles and given the Rotavirus oral vaccine. He died less than 13 hours later.
Reason #1
Medical personnel push too hard to get vaccines into babies. Of course, if nothing goes wrong, it will be a successful encounter and the parents will end up a bit more trustful of vaccines. But if anything goes wrong?

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Reason #2
Lack of a convincing explanation for problems following quickly after vaccinations. Medical personnel need to be there explaining why these problems which seem to be related to vaccines are not related and the explanations need to be high quality, science-based, and coherent.

Quote:
Laura Adams My son got his 18 month shots plus a flu shot when he was 15 months old per the schedule followed at his doctors office. Within 15 minutes after the shots when we were in the car, he passed out which may have been a seizure looking back now. Within 30 days he had lost all language, stopped responding to his name, and started to withdraw. Six months after the shots, he was diagnosed with autism and hyperkinesis.
http://vaccineliberationarmy.com/201...d-their-child/

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#3 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Reason #3
Medical care following vaccines seems to be sort of "loose" sometimes. As though problems following vaccines don't need real follow-up or something. For this family, the lack of medical care left them with one dead child and another who may be permanently damaged. http://thinktwice.com/stories.htm

Quote:
* The attendant giving the vaccines never mentioned the possibility of side effects when we were rushed through the signing of the releases.
* Ashlee has been to doctors since her paralysis. They never documented our verbal concerns regarding a connection to the vaccines.
* The autopsy lists Harley as a 5-week-old baby; he was 9 weeks old.
* The pathology department never received tissue samples. Also, Harley's blood arrived by U.S. mail after an eleven-day wait; it was not shipped on dry ice.
* The doctor never recorded the lot numbers of the vaccines. The manufacturers cannot help us without this information.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
 
#4 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Usually the "anti-vaccine" movement is blamed for turning parents against vaccines. But is that what is really going on? Or are medical personnel creating people who distrust vaccines? Why would they do that?

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#5 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:39 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 24,282
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Good points, Deborah.

Doctors and medical personnel have a god complex. These "professionals" think they know everything and believe parents to be stupid.

There must be some kind of pressure on them to push these vaccines lately. It is getting worse.

"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
applejuice is offline  
#6 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Well, yes, there is that @applejuice .

But there is a lot of concern out there about all those "mistaken" stories about vaccine injuries. I haven't seen any studies about HOW parents end up on the "wrong" side of vaccines. Studies about the process by which a parent who believed in vaccines and got her daughter Gardasil, for example, ends up convinced that her daughter's health problems are all due to the vaccine. To the point where these mothers become activists and troublemakers. It seems an obvious area to study.

Preventing parents from going off the deep end when their baby dies a few days after vaccines shouldn't be impossible. Where is Voices for Vaccines when you need them?

By the time the story is published up on the Internet and VfV starts asking the seven questions, it is WAY too late. http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/vac...-the-internet/

They need vaccine injury dismissal kits available in emergency rooms and doctor's offices across the country to help parents understand why something that looks like vaccine injury IS NOT vaccine injury. Or something.

Science and research badly needed!

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#7 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
There needs to be a bridge between the medical personnel, who are already sure that it isn't the vaccines, to the point that they won't even mention vaccines in the medical records sometimes, and the parents who feel as though the connection is obvious. The medical personnel need to do a better job of sharing their certainty.
applejuice and Anne Jividen like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#8 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 08:06 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 24,282
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
The seven questions - (sorry, but it did not look this way when I typed it.)

the first question puts the victim on the defensive, right away.
#2 never happens - how many mds will confirm or even know how to recognize a vaccine reaction?
#3 blame the victim
#4 , #5 , history lesson? This is where we are told Einstein had autism.
#6 , #7 , victim is put squarely on the defensive. It is all the victim's fault.

  1. May I ask why you are so sure it was the vaccine?
  2. Has it been medically confirmed?
  3. Was anything else going on at the time?
  4. Before the vaccine was invented, did this condition exist?
  5. What caused these conditions before the vaccine was invented?
  6. Could it be possible that these things are causing them now?
  7. What is the likelihood that the vaccine caused it versus something else?

"Vaccines are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - acute hemorrhagic edema of infancy, allergies, anaphylaxis, asthma, autoimmune disease, diabetes, eczema, petit/gran mal seizures, fibromyalgia, Henoch-Schonlein purpua, Dravet's Syndrome, Retts Syndrome, Sweet's Syndrome, Hughes Syndrome, encephalitis, speech delay, tics, neurological damage, coma, ADEM, ADHD, AFP, ASIA, CFS, CRPS, GBS, ITP, JPA, JRA, LGS, LKS, MS, ORS, PANDAS, PANS, PINTANDS, POF, POTS, RA, SIDS, SJS, SLE, SPD, SUDS, TPI, the disease one is being vaccinated against, or death."

Paraphrased from "Forrest Gump".

List from the drug companies' own package inserts that come with their product as required by law.
applejuice is offline  
#9 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Well, it is hard to see those questions as anything but too much and too late.

By the time a parent is totally committed to believing that what happened was a vaccine reaction, they aren't likely to change their mind because some perfect stranger asks them invasive questions.

The opportunities to prevent these stories from ending up on the Internet occur:

  • during the medical appointment -- perhaps if a parent is really anxious and scared about the shots bullying them into going along with several vaccines isn't such a great idea?
  • when the parent calls because their baby is having concerning symptoms after the shots -- perhaps taking the situation seriously would build trust -- and what if there really is a problem? What if the baby is developing meningitis, or has caught a nasty virus at the doctor's office? Calling symptoms following vaccination "normal" could be a recipe for disaster even in the absence of a "real" vaccine reaction.
  • at the emergency room -- taking a full history and recording all the vaccines as part of the medical history will build trust again -- showing concern will build trust -- genuinely investigating what is going on will build trust -- taking the parent's concerns seriously will build trust -- if it does turn out to be a vaccine reaction it will be properly documented and reported, which can only improve the vaccine delivery system. More data is good. If it turns out not to be a vaccine reaction, having all the information will help the medical personnel explain what is going on and what the appropriate treatment should be.
  • During the follow-up visits and treatments -- if it really was a vaccine reaction it is absolutely essential that this reality be acknowledged, that it be recorded in the medical records and that the parent be reassured that in the future proper and appropriate precautions will be taken to protect the baby. If it wasn't a vaccine reaction the parent will probably need ongoing reassurance because doubts will creep in and the parent may be tempted to read vaccine reaction stories on the Internet.
Many of those troublesome stories could have been prevented from ever being published. Which would have prevented them from undermining the vaccine program.


Medical personnel around the world have a lot to answer for when it comes to messing up things for vaccines.
applejuice and Anne Jividen like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#10 of 103 Old 11-22-2015, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Of course all my thoughts and recommendations above are purely speculative. Until someone researches the process whereby a pro-vaccine parent or family converts to anti-vaccine, we just won't know what could be done to prevent the conversion.

Research is needed! Parents are being dragged into the anti-vaccine camp every minute, hour and day!

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#11 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
You would almost think that the pro-vaccine prefer that people who experience problems with vaccines turn against them...

Maybe they like attacking the parents of possibly vaccine injured children?
applejuice and Anne Jividen like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#12 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 06:20 AM
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,420
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 694 Post(s)
Oh for sure I believe it's the medical system that's turning families against vaccines. It's not the small number of what people call "antivaxers" that are doing it, that's for sure. People just need to see for themselves after spending enough time and money on pharmaceuticals and their use over time to see the potential problems they cause, their overuse, how one pharmaceutical leads to another, etc.
SilverMoon010 is offline  
#13 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 08:02 AM
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,420
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 694 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Good points, Deborah.

Doctors and medical personnel have a god complex. These "professionals" think they know everything and believe parents to be stupid.
.
Yes I agree. It appears (some) doctors are blinded when it comes to vaccine and vaccine injury, therefore dismiss so easily. Some don't even consider it a possibility that the vaccine could cause injury, or think hard enough about it. They don't hear the parents.

I do like my endocrinologist, but when I asked him if my prior use of antidepressants years ago had anything to do with my thyroid dysfunction, he shook his head and said an adament no. Nothing else. No explanation why it couldn't be related. I listened to his answer of no, but felt he didn't know enough at that point to make such a statement since I had read elsewhere in the past that thyroid dysfunction and antidepressants were related, maybe rarely, albeit still related. Why would he dismiss it so quickly, without addressing that it is a possibility? I wasn't convinced of his answer. This is what frustrates me and makes me feel like when I leave a doctor's office, that I don't trust what they say anymore. They say one thing, but I read another elsewhere. They don't know everything. They answer things incorrectly. They diagnose incorrectly. They respond to questions according to their own personal experience, no matter how limited. They are human. They make mistakes, oversights, all of the time. I do my own research as much as I can prior to going to doctors now. We need them, but we need to also remember they don't know it all and sometimes our best judgment will give us the better outcome. This goes along with vaccines too. Vaccines aren't any different. I'm not convinced that doctors are addressing these issues appropriately or that appropriate questions are being addressed properly when it comes to vaccines, because although doctors think they know, or are certain they know, they may just not know.

Why aren't others totally convinced? There seems to be a total break in the chain, where parents are lost, not sure who to trust.

Last edited by SilverMoon010; 11-25-2015 at 08:15 AM.
SilverMoon010 is offline  
#14 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 09:17 AM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 3,281
Mentioned: 552 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 284 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post
Yes I agree. It appears (some) doctors are blinded when it comes to vaccine and vaccine injury, therefore dismiss so easily. Some don't even consider it a possibility that the vaccine could cause injury, or think hard enough about it. They don't hear the parents.

I do like my endocrinologist, but when I asked him if my prior use of antidepressants years ago had anything to do with my thyroid dysfunction, he shook his head and said an adament no. Nothing else. No explanation why it couldn't be related. I listened to his answer of no, but felt he didn't know enough at that point to make such a statement since I had read elsewhere in the past that thyroid dysfunction and antidepressants were related, maybe rarely, albeit still related. Why would he dismiss it so quickly, without addressing that it is a possibility? I wasn't convinced of his answer. This is what frustrates me and makes me feel like when I leave a doctor's office, that I don't trust what they say anymore. They say one thing, but I read another elsewhere. They don't know everything. They answer things incorrectly. They diagnose incorrectly. They respond to questions according to their own personal experience, no matter how limited. They are human. They make mistakes, oversights, all of the time. I do my own research as much as I can prior to going to doctors now. We need them, but we need to also remember they don't know it all and sometimes our best judgment will give us the better outcome. This goes along with vaccines too. Vaccines aren't any different. I'm not convinced that doctors are addressing these issues appropriately or that appropriate questions are being addressed properly when it comes to vaccines, because although doctors think they know, or are certain they know, they may just not know.

Why aren't others totally convinced? There seems to be a total break in the chain, where parents are lost, not sure who to trust.

Yes to this. Why wouldn't your doctor say, "I have never heard of a link between the two." For him, it's the same as saying no and for you it lets you share what you had read. An open minded doc can then say, "I've never heard of that. I would have to look into it more." Why do docs have to be so dismissive? There's a lot they don't know. There's a lot all of us don't know. Is it a God complex? Honestly, this general medical attitude of unwillingness to be open to new ideas makes me not trust them.


So, SO many times I've gotten completely wrong advice from medical professionals. In the NICU, a nurse told me if I got sick I'd have to stop nursing my baby. I had one threaten to not let me take my baby home if I was feeding him more than every 3 hours! I had one tell me to only breastfeed for 15 minutes on each side. This was from NICU nurses! Each time I had correct the wrong. I had an infant nutritionist, certified pediatric nutritionist, tell me that I should wean my 8 month old onto formula because breast milk was not nutritionally sufficient!


Blah. I'm going on and on. The point it, it's our job to be educated. No one cares about you and your family's health more than you!

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Mom to AJ 4/07
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and Genevieve 5/09
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


And THEN twins: Matt 11/14
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and his guardian angel Billy
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Ten days in our lives, a lifetime in our hearts


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Xerxella is offline  
#15 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 10:57 AM
 
Crazybean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
[QUOTE=Deborah;19146297]Well, it is hard to see those questions as anything but too much and too late.

By the time a parent is totally committed to believing that what happened was a vaccine reaction, they aren't likely to change their mind because some perfect stranger asks them invasive questions.

The opportunities to prevent these stories from ending up on the Internet occur:

[LIST][*]during the medical appointment -- perhaps if a parent is really anxious and scared about the shots bullying them into going along with several vaccines isn't such a great idea? agreed! I was very anxious as a new mom and with a new baby. When I discussed my concerns, I started to get bullied into getting them all. When I refused it all and stood up to leave, they backpedaled. They told me of a horrible incident they saw in medical school and told me the one with the least amount of reactions was Hib and I should at least consider that one. So their idea was to 1st bully and intimidate (doesn't go over well with a mama bear), 2nd if pushing doesn't work, step back and resort to fear and "stories" they magically have all of a sudden then 3rd, convince them to get 1 known for less reactions so trust and/or examples can be used next time [*]when the parent calls because their baby is having concerning symptoms after the shots -- perhaps taking the situation seriously would build trust -- and what if there really is a problem? What if the baby is developing meningitis, or has caught a nasty virus at the doctor's office? Calling symptoms following vaccination "normal" could be a recipe for disaster even in the absence of a "real" vaccine reaction. Again agreed! My friend just got her 14 mo old vaccinated with the MMR- not even 2 hrs later, he was crying, and burning up.. then later in the day, developed a rash. She called and they said it was "normal" and to keep him on Tylenol and Motrin. Really? I told her what to really do...[*]at the emergency room -- taking a full history and recording all the vaccines as part of the medical history will build trust again -- showing concern will build trust -- genuinely investigating what is going on will build trust -- taking the parent's concerns seriously will build trust -- if it does turn out to be a vaccine reaction it will be properly documented and reported, which can only improve the vaccine delivery system. More data is good. If it turns out not to be a vaccine reaction, having all the information will help the medical personnel explain what is going on and what the appropriate treatment should be. Wishful thinking... it is a coincidence- remember? I would be so much more laid back if the hospitals weren't so quick to judge and dismiss!

If all of your points happened, I think so much would change. But... we do not live in a perfect world....
Crazybean is offline  
#16 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Once people start doubting the trustworthiness of authorities, who knows where they will end up?

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#17 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
[quote=Crazybean;19149865]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Well, it is hard to see those questions as anything but too much and too late.

By the time a parent is totally committed to believing that what happened was a vaccine reaction, they aren't likely to change their mind because some perfect stranger asks them invasive questions.

The opportunities to prevent these stories from ending up on the Internet occur:

[LIST][*]during the medical appointment -- perhaps if a parent is really anxious and scared about the shots bullying them into going along with several vaccines isn't such a great idea? agreed! I was very anxious as a new mom and with a new baby. When I discussed my concerns, I started to get bullied into getting them all. When I refused it all and stood up to leave, they backpedaled. They told me of a horrible incident they saw in medical school and told me the one with the least amount of reactions was Hib and I should at least consider that one. So their idea was to 1st bully and intimidate (doesn't go over well with a mama bear), 2nd if pushing doesn't work, step back and resort to fear and "stories" they magically have all of a sudden then 3rd, convince them to get 1 known for less reactions so trust and/or examples can be used next time [*]when the parent calls because their baby is having concerning symptoms after the shots -- perhaps taking the situation seriously would build trust -- and what if there really is a problem? What if the baby is developing meningitis, or has caught a nasty virus at the doctor's office? Calling symptoms following vaccination "normal" could be a recipe for disaster even in the absence of a "real" vaccine reaction. Again agreed! My friend just got her 14 mo old vaccinated with the MMR- not even 2 hrs later, he was crying, and burning up.. then later in the day, developed a rash. She called and they said it was "normal" and to keep him on Tylenol and Motrin. Really? I told her what to really do...[*]at the emergency room -- taking a full history and recording all the vaccines as part of the medical history will build trust again -- showing concern will build trust -- genuinely investigating what is going on will build trust -- taking the parent's concerns seriously will build trust -- if it does turn out to be a vaccine reaction it will be properly documented and reported, which can only improve the vaccine delivery system. More data is good. If it turns out not to be a vaccine reaction, having all the information will help the medical personnel explain what is going on and what the appropriate treatment should be. Wishful thinking... it is a coincidence- remember? I would be so much more laid back if the hospitals weren't so quick to judge and dismiss!

If all of your points happened, I think so much would change. But... we do not live in a perfect world....
No, we sure don't. But the current narrative is that parents are totally irrational and doctors and nurses do things right but it just doesn't work out because parents are crazy. A study which looked at the process by which parents end up as vaccine critics would not paint the medical personnel in such a rosy light.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#18 of 103 Old 11-25-2015, 01:39 PM
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,420
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 694 Post(s)
[quote=Deborah;19150009]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazybean View Post

No, we sure don't. But the current narrative is that parents are totally irrational and doctors and nurses do things right but it just doesn't work out because parents are crazy. A study which looked at the process by which parents end up as vaccine critics would not paint the medical personnel in such a rosy light.
Exactly. And it's just not only the vaccine-injured who can become vaccine critics. I wasn't raised in a holistic/alternative non-vaxing environment. I was vaccinated, as was my brother (who I've mentioned here as having a severe reaction to DPT as a baby). I am not against the use of conventional medicine. I am against the overuse and misuse of it, which has made me vaccine-critical. Once the schedule tripled, and the fact that all vaccines were seen as a necessity (when in reality they aren't), and then all vaccines are now becoming mandatory for schools (which clearly shouldn't be such as the flu vaccine) it allows for questioning the entire system and ask why it is so. Questions lead to more research and more research leads to more questions, questions that aren't being answered or addressed, in the manner which they should. Knowing history of the pharmaceutical companies, wrongdoings, meds pulled off the shelf after many injured, cover-ups due to greed, vaccines that have and continue to injure people, the lack of concern around these injuries, etc., are all cause of concern, thus result in being critical of the entire program and the program's purpose. The schedule should have been left as it was. The more vaccines that are added and made mandatory, the more injuries or illness people are going to see related to vaccination, and the more criticism I believe people are going to have. What should happen is to stop adding more vaccines and concentrate on the issues at hand before proceeding, drop those vaccines that have no place being mandatory and give parents a break, BUT there is no interest in doing that and will never happen due to the amount of greed in a market with high return and large competition. The vaccine industry is unstoppable and will stop at nothing to continue producing as many vaccines as possible, and that in and of itself should make someone a little bit critical.
SilverMoon010 is offline  
#19 of 103 Old 11-26-2015, 05:45 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,783
Mentioned: 251 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2589 Post(s)
My process of becoming non -vax started with a few changes to the vaccine schedule, which led to me asking some questions. The questions were very poorly handled by health care providers. I will not say I would be a typical vaxxer at this moment if those questions were handled better -I have thought about it a fair bit over the last day or so - and I think my cautiousness with allopathic medicine in general and pharmaceuticals in particular would have rendered me vaccine-critical no matter what, but I can say my oldest would have had more vaccines if our early health care providers had been less ignorant.

The powers that be strongly suspect that health care providers behaviour can influence vaccine choices, which is why they want to study us so much, and why there are cheat sheets on how to deal with reluctant parents, etc. This doesn't work, though...because it feels like manipulation.

I am happy I am non-vax. I feel, for the most part, it was the right choice. On some level I do not want doctors to change their game, as it might lead to more vaccination, and I don't really want that. OTOH, I don't want them turning people against vaccination with their ineptness.

What I really want is thus:
-take parental concerns seriously
-carve out time (a good 15-30 minutes) to discuss the pros and cons of individual vaccines with parents who want that level of discussion
-do not manipulate people or coerce people in any way into vaccinating.

I want informed choice.

I do not know how the above approach would affect levels of vaccination - but I do suspect it will make everyone a lot happier with their decision, and make them feel like they took ownership of their decision.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.
 
Book and herb loving mama to 2 teens and one young adult.

Last edited by kathymuggle; 11-26-2015 at 06:26 AM.
kathymuggle is offline  
#20 of 103 Old 11-26-2015, 07:36 AM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,628
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Here's what I think really needs to happen in order for change to come; And it's really a what comes first -chicken or the egg thing. (and it's what if I could, I would go back in time to tell my pre-pregnant self)

Before you get pregnant- RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH... EVERYTHING!!!! And I don't mean read What to Expect either. Start by looking into whether you want to have a medicalized birth by birthing in a hospital with an OB-GYN. A lot of fear is bandied about and whilst there are instances where a hospital birth is a necessity, the fear is more about loss of income than it is something horrible will happen with a home birth.

Know that you are the parent and at the end of the day the doctor isn't going to be living with whatever problems they create. Listen to your intuition.

Now the egg part,

We need to teach our children from very young about autonomy. We need to empower them to question authority. We need to teach them that these people are supposed to be partners, not dictators. We need to teach them that "experts" are fallible and make mistakes.

The medical industrial complex gets away with so much because they were put on a pedestal and we were trained to obey them. They have effectively used fear to compel us to look to them for everything; things we did for centuries for ourselves. WE, need to change in order for them to change.
samaxtics is offline  
#21 of 103 Old 11-26-2015, 12:38 PM
 
7soleil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Refusing vaccines is an action, not a reaction.

Your post seems to imply that vaccine injury doesn't exist, and that parents can be convinced of this with proper handling. The fact that there is such a thing as a "vaccine injury dismissal kit" is disturbing to me.
applejuice and Anne Jividen like this.

Last edited by 7soleil; 11-26-2015 at 01:56 PM. Reason: clarity
7soleil is offline  
#22 of 103 Old 11-26-2015, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7soleil View Post
Your post seems to imply that vaccine injury doesn't exist, and that parents can be convinced of this with proper handling. The fact that there is such a thing as a "vaccine injury dismissal kit" is disturbing to me.
This statement:
Quote:
They need vaccine injury dismissal kits available in emergency rooms and doctor's offices across the country to help parents understand why something that looks like vaccine injury IS NOT vaccine injury. Or something.
was me being very sarcastic.

But I do find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be an effective campaign to convince parents that what may look like vaccine injury couldn't possibly be vaccine injury. It is a serious failing of the vaccine pushing campaign--that when things go wrong they push parents into the anti-vaccine camp.
applejuice and Anne Jividen like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#23 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 01:35 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
...

Last edited by Mathemom; 01-08-2016 at 02:42 PM.
Mathemom is offline  
#24 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 05:36 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,783
Mentioned: 251 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2589 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathemom View Post
A lot of what turns families against vaccines appears to be the sharing of personal stories using social media. These stories present one side of a story with certainty and anyone who questions the narrative can't possibly have enough information to offer a definitive alternate explanation. It is generally considered bad form to disagree with a family who has posted such a personal anecdote, so although there are people who do so, it is generally poorly received by those whom they seek to inform/convince.
I am not sure this is true. It might make a good, carefully crafted, poll question. If a story or collection of stories resonate with a person, there is usually a reason for it. People are complicated and people have baggage that inform their decisions. I think we all have stories on how we got to the point we are at, and those stories start long before we make decisions for our children on vaccination.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.
 
Book and herb loving mama to 2 teens and one young adult.

Last edited by kathymuggle; 11-27-2015 at 05:47 AM.
kathymuggle is offline  
#25 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 05:51 AM
 
emmy526's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,045
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathemom View Post
A lot of what turns families against vaccines appears to be the sharing of personal stories using social media. These stories present one side of a story with certainty and anyone who questions the narrative can't possibly have enough information to offer a definitive alternate explanation. It is generally considered bad form to disagree with a family who has posted such a personal anecdote, so although there are people who do so, it is generally poorly received by those whom they seek to inform/convince.

This article, "Story and Science: How Providers and Parents Can Utilize Storytelling to Combat Anti-Vaccine Misinformation" offers and interesting perspective on how social media has impacted the vaccination debate.
so what would turn a family against vaccinating before all this social media came into play? For one, my son had horrid reaction in the late 80's..THAT is what led to my research, not some story i heard from another parent. You seem to think nonvaxxers are making their choices based off of another person's 'story'? That is ludicrous.
Just because so and so's kid jumped off a bridge and lived is no reason why I should allow my child to do the same.
emmy526 is offline  
#26 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 05:56 AM
 
SilverMoon010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,420
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 694 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathemom View Post
A lot of what turns families against vaccines appears to be the sharing of personal stories using social media. These stories present one side of a story with certainty and anyone who questions the narrative can't possibly have enough information to offer a definitive alternate explanation. It is generally considered bad form to disagree with a family who has posted such a personal anecdote, so although there are people who do so, it is generally poorly received by those whom they seek to inform/convince.

This article, "Story and Science: How Providers and Parents Can Utilize Storytelling to Combat Anti-Vaccine Misinformation" offers and interesting perspective on how social media has impacted the vaccination debate.
That article you linked is from 2013. The summary indicates that the provaccine needs to step up their blogs about the safety of vaccines, positive experiences after vaccination, etc. (at an attempt to drown out the personal experiences of individuals with negative experiences or outcomes after vaccination. Lovely plan to censor personal experiences) If you haven't noticed, there are several provaccine blogs doing this currently, so they must have gotten the memo, and I've noticed a thread on here regarding posts about "another child without reactions after vaccinations," so some posters here must have gotten the provaccine memo too regarding spreading positive experiences, and all you need to do is turn on mainstream news or read mainstream articles about the "necessity" to vaccinate regarding the provaccine message, or talk to you pediatrician. Where's the shortage of provaccine message again? Please tell me.

I'm sorry but a "lack of the positives of vaccines" is surely not what is making people leery of vaccination, because as I mentioned above there is no shortage of that. It appears the "provaccine message" is not convincing enough. Why do you think that is?

Personal experiences about Gardasil, to my knowledge, is the only vaccine where currently there is a whole website dedicated to the dangers, filled with detailed summaries (only some included, surely not all experiences) as to what occurred in each individual all in one spot. Have you ever read the personal experiences? Any of them? All of them? The provaccine really should read up on those as well and the noise surrounding it, rather than ignore them. Good research requires research on all sides, and yes, that includes what you call "personal stories." After all, vaccines have caused injury and have been acknowledged to cause injury in many cases, so why are we to ignore personal accounts after vaccination, good or bad?

Drowning out people's personal experiences regarding vaccines, like your article indicates, is not the answer. The only reason they want to do that is to control the Internet and what information is published on it, so as not to allow people to share their own experiences, or the need to "balance" out the argument to quiet the opposing side.

Last edited by SilverMoon010; 11-27-2015 at 06:41 AM.
SilverMoon010 is offline  
#27 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathemom View Post
A lot of what turns families against vaccines appears to be the sharing of personal stories using social media. These stories present one side of a story with certainty and anyone who questions the narrative can't possibly have enough information to offer a definitive alternate explanation. It is generally considered bad form to disagree with a family who has posted such a personal anecdote, so although there are people who do so, it is generally poorly received by those whom they seek to inform/convince.

This article, "Story and Science: How Providers and Parents Can Utilize Storytelling to Combat Anti-Vaccine Misinformation" offers and interesting perspective on how social media has impacted the vaccination debate.
This thread discusses the failure of the medical providers to STOP people from deciding that vaccines injured their child or children so they won't be out there telling those stories.

Here is the sequence I've seen in a few dozen such "anti-vaccine" stories.

1) Parents are pro-vaccine and take their baby to receive vaccines on schedule.
2) Baby has a reaction or multiple reactions. Parents contact medical office where they went for vaccinations or else go to the emergency room at the local hospital.
3) Medical personnel fail to adequately explain why it is okay for the baby to react that way or why it isn't really a vaccine reaction (coincidence) or how it couldn't possibly be a vaccine reaction (never been reported before), etc.
4) Parents, now very concerned, start looking at anti-vaccine web-sites and discover that such reactions aren't all that rare...

The way to handle anti-vaccine anecdotes is to prevent them, not to deny them or try to drown them out.

I've gone over ways to prevent them earlier in this thread and I suggest you go back and read the whole thing to try and understand the point I'm actually making.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#28 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 11:01 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
...

Last edited by Mathemom; 01-08-2016 at 02:42 PM.
Mathemom is offline  
#29 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
@mathe mon,
still no interest in discussing HOW families who see reactions, or possible reactions, end up as critical of vaccines?

I've had some more thoughts about how this plays out.

Consider that for every family that sees a possible reaction and reports it to medical personnel you have someone on the medical side doing one of these things:
1) denying that it is a vaccine reaction
2) admitting that it is a vaccine reaction but not reporting it
3) admitting that it is a vaccine reaction and reporting it
4) saying "I'm not sure what caused this, might have been the vaccines."
5) other

Three out of four involve not reporting, and much of the time may involve not even recording what happened in the medical file of the individual involved.

This business of not reporting vaccine reactions snowballs over time, as each problem not reported or recorded is lost from the data. In addition, when medical personnel insist that something is not a vaccine reaction, they may be failing to convince the individual or the parents of the individual, but they are building up a body of belief about vaccine reactions in themselves and in their co-workers. It could be described as the opposite of open-mindedness on vaccine reactions and could explain the sometimes absurd over-reaction that people have described when they try to report to a doctor or nurse that their baby got very sick after vaccines were administered. "No! That isn't a vaccine reaction." This is, of course, the worst sort of response to deliver, if you are actually trying to convince someone who has just experienced something very scary, that it really isn't anything to worry about. What is needed is calmness, concern, openness, willingness to collect the information, perhaps time taken to consult the PDR or the vaccine package inserts, appropriate questions about timing, severity of symptoms, duration of symptoms, all the normal stuff that would be done if a parent brought in a sick baby who was possibly having a reaction to a drug or vaccine.

I continue to believe that each vaccine critical anecdote posted online is the result of a failure of medical personnel to properly address the problem when it first occurred.

If possible vaccine reactions were properly handled parents would either:

1) continue to trust medical personnel because they know that if something goes wrong with vaccine administration it will be addressed and the needs of their baby or child will be considered ahead of the needs of the vaccine program or
2) they will continue to trust medical personnel because they are convinced that what looked like a vaccine reaction really was a coincidence, a virus, a normal response to the vaccine, etc.

The inability of the medical personnel to deliver those outcomes represents a disastrous failure of the system.

By the way, the fact that there is an organization called VOICES FOR VACCINES is a very bad sign. Vaccines need to be protected? Vaccines need someone to speak up for them? Crazy.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
#30 of 103 Old 11-27-2015, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 18,256
Mentioned: 373 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3170 Post(s)
I'm going to put this thread in the "questions vaccine supporters don't want to discuss" column.

Only one vaccine supporter responded--but has not addressed the actual theme of the thread--something which often occurs with my threads.

Perhaps I'm too subtle?
applejuice and Anne Jividen like this.

vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Deborah is online now  
Reply


User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Online Users: 2,269

14 members and 2,255 guests
bjjislife , Deborah , hamirandi527 , Hyacinthe , idler , KerriB , PrayerOFChrist , Realdeal , rs3gold5 , sarrahlnorris , skyrocket , vraonarln
Most users ever online was 21,860, 06-22-2018 at 08:45 PM.