Corrupt system not just around vaccines - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 430 Old 03-31-2016, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, this is one of the kinds of things that prevents our knowing.

And the fact that the Guardian presented it un-ironically actually made me snort my tea.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...iet-scharnberg
I'm sorry you snorted your tea! And the AP got away with this for 75 plus years? Ouch.
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#62 of 430 Old 03-31-2016, 09:08 AM
 
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I'm sorry you snorted your tea! And the AP got away with this for 75 plus years? Ouch.
And probably are still doing it, elsewhere.

My town is full of Holocaust survivors and Japanese rescued from internment camps. It's an unusual place.

So, what is the AP actually doing, as far as reporting, in North Korea?

Or Gannett, here?
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#63 of 430 Old 03-31-2016, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And probably are still doing it, elsewhere.

My town is full of Holocaust survivors and Japanese rescued from internment camps. It's an unusual place.

So, what is the AP actually doing, as far as reporting, in North Korea?

Or Gannett, here?
And anyone reporting critically on vaccine related stories?
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#64 of 430 Old 04-02-2016, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The decline of the free press seems to be a reality.

However, when it comes to vaccines, some people assume that the press is free, independent and accurate. No stones need to be overturned, there are no lurking disasters to be exhumed, nothing to see here, move on.
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#65 of 430 Old 04-02-2016, 09:38 AM
 
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I really don't think the poor state of (most of) the media is specific to vaccines.

You can find good reporting. Given the actual evidence backs the idea of vaccines being safe and effective good reporting is unlikely to back vaccine critical viewpoints. But it does exist.
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#66 of 430 Old 04-02-2016, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I really don't think the poor state of (most of) the media is specific to vaccines.

You can find good reporting. Given the actual evidence backs the idea of vaccines being safe and effective good reporting is unlikely to back vaccine critical viewpoints. But it does exist.
Excellent points! Thanks for sorting out my confusion about the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

There is a big problem in the US, however. Pharmaceutical advertising is a major source of income for many magazines and newspapers. For example, Parents Magazine is always full of ads for ADD drugs, etc. What would happen to the ad revenue if Parents published an article that, for example, recommended expansion of the philosophical exemption to encourage more families to at least partially vaccinate? This isn't a safety or efficacy issue, it is a policy issue and a political issue and a perfectly reasonable discussion for a parenting magazine to host. But it won't appear. The only articles they ever carry connected to vaccines are the equivalent of drug advertisements.

When millions or even billions of dollars in revenue are at stake, it isn't unreasonable to assume that the media is influenced.

Would you trust the media on this topic in the UK if pharmaceutical advertising were legal?

What if Offit were to get a platform in the UK for his push to bring back vaccine mandates for school attendance? I assume you would appreciate a news media that hosted a two or even three sided discussion on the question, rather than presenting Offit all the way down. [I'm not asking you to respond to any points about the mandate issue, only the question of objective news media coverage of policy questions. Vaccine issues are NOT just science issues.]

In the US, it is very rare for a media outlet to allow any discussion of any bits of the vaccine issue beyond: vaccines good, more vaccines better, everyone should get every vaccine as recommended, questioning any of this makes you stupid.

Is that really a good way to discuss an issue that involves government policy? Billions of dollars in government expenditure, most of it ending up in the pockets of a small group of companies? Issues of regulation, access to education, freedom of choice in medical care? Treating all of these issues as though there is only one side because "science"?

Sorry for the rant!

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#67 of 430 Old 04-02-2016, 11:56 PM
 
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I do agree that I wish for more nuanced media on vaccines. Even I'm getting pretty tired of the usual formula.

I suspect that formula is partly driven by anti-vaccination agendas though. There's a fear that showing any weakness or debate over vaccines will give the anti-vax voices "too much ammo". I think that's a mistake. I think the science speaks for itself that choosing to vaccinate is the obvious choice - but I agree everyone must have that choice to make.

I support your right to choose not to vaccinate, I just won't ever agree it's a choice backed by any real scientific evidence that vaccinating is dangerous or uneccessary.
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#68 of 430 Old 04-03-2016, 04:59 AM
 
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I do agree that I wish for more nuanced media on vaccines. Even I'm getting pretty tired of the usual formula.

I suspect that formula is partly driven by anti-vaccination agendas though. There's a fear that showing any weakness or debate over vaccines will give the anti-vax voices "too much ammo". I think that's a mistake. I think the science speaks for itself that choosing to vaccinate is the obvious choice - but I agree everyone must have that choice to make.

I support your right to choose not to vaccinate, I just won't ever agree it's a choice backed by any real scientific evidence that vaccinating is dangerous or uneccessary.
And the difficulty is, that people don't believe they'd have access to such evidence.

To fall back on what seems to be a favorite example around here, car seats.

Car seats, used properly, save lives. The problem is that every time anyone checks into it, they discover that people DON'T use them properly. So they have education campaigns, and set up car seat clinics at fire houses, etc.

Now, and I know this is disappointing, the better answer is to have built-in car seats, and to standardize what car seats we have so that they're more fool resistant. We've done it before. We said, "Cars need bumpers. Put them on."

But if we did that, people wouldn't get to spend enormous amounts of money on car seats. They wouldn't carry babies around in baby buckets, or transfer them to strollers, or whatever. And, since people like doing that, and car seat manufacturers like selling them, that's what we've got.

Similar things apply to the vaccine issue. Produce monovalent vaccines, as a choice. Reimburse doctors so that having families come in monthly doesn't cost more. Make the payouts of vaccine injury public knowledge, and provide people who believe they have a case with lawyers. If you rob a minimart, the government provides you with representation, but if your kid is sick you're on your own. What kind of system is that?

If vaccines are safe and effective, I could fix their PR problem in 18 months. But pharma keeps acting sneaky. It's not helping.
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When medical journals rely heavily on pharma advertising,

When researchers and scientists are attacked for merely suggesting that their preliminary studies show harm and more research is needed and their papers are published and pulled or never published,

When researchers and scientists fear for their careers by going anywhere near the topic,

When successful applications for vaccine injury compensation are sealed from other claimants and the public,

it's easy to claim there is no science to support that vaccines can be dangerous or that the science in favour of vaccines speaks for itself.
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#70 of 430 Old 04-03-2016, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I do agree that I wish for more nuanced media on vaccines. Even I'm getting pretty tired of the usual formula.

I suspect that formula is partly driven by anti-vaccination agendas though. There's a fear that showing any weakness or debate over vaccines will give the anti-vax voices "too much ammo". I think that's a mistake. I think the science speaks for itself that choosing to vaccinate is the obvious choice - but I agree everyone must have that choice to make.

I support your right to choose not to vaccinate, I just won't ever agree it's a choice backed by any real scientific evidence that vaccinating is dangerous or uneccessary.
Sorry, but that strikes me as ass backwards.

If a fairly large number of people are a bit concerned about vaccines, not hard line "anti" but concerned, then demonstrating absolute paranoia about any public discussion of any aspect of vaccines makes the powers that be look defensive rather than authoritative.

Plus, blaming the anti-vaccine people for the "need" for censorship is a bit like blaming the Jews for anti-semitism or people with dark skin for racism.

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#71 of 430 Old 04-03-2016, 08:33 AM
 
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Sorry, but that strikes me as ass backwards.

If a fairly large number of people are a bit concerned about vaccines, not hard line "anti" but concerned, then demonstrating absolute paranoia about any public discussion of any aspect of vaccines makes the powers that be look defensive rather than authoritative.

Plus, blaming the anti-vaccine people for the "need" for censorship is a bit like blaming the Jews for anti-semitism or people with dark skin for racism.
Oh, she dinnent



Does that count as Godwin's Law?

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#72 of 430 Old 04-03-2016, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My grandmother almost got killed in a pogrom in Odessa Russia, long before the Nazis came to power. And yes, it was quite common in Russia to say that anti-semitism was due to the bad behavior of Jewish people.

So I wasn't thinking Germany actually, just the long history of anti-semitism in the world.
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#73 of 430 Old 04-03-2016, 07:57 PM
 
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My grandmother almost got killed in a pogrom in Odessa Russia, long before the Nazis came to power. And yes, it was quite common in Russia to say that anti-semitism was due to the bad behavior of Jewish people.

So I wasn't thinking Germany actually, just the long history of anti-semitism in the world.
I know.

I'll try not to poke you in your history nerve.

I was just commenting the way my kids say, "Shots fired."

Been a nutty week. I'm coming a little unwound.
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#74 of 430 Old 04-04-2016, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I know.

I'll try not to poke you in your history nerve.

I was just commenting the way my kids say, "Shots fired."

Been a nutty week. I'm coming a little unwound.
No problem!

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#75 of 430 Old 04-04-2016, 10:18 AM
 
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Paragraph three has a nice example of how advertising influences content.

Paragraph two is just about bias.

http://nymag.com/daily/movies/2010/0...on_tobacc.html
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#76 of 430 Old 04-04-2016, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Paragraph three has a nice example of how advertising influences content.

Paragraph two is just about bias.

http://nymag.com/daily/movies/2010/0...on_tobacc.html
I'm a weirdo, but I think it is good to protect children for the first few years of their lives. Why in the world should children be watching videos filled with violence? Or smoking?

I agree with you about paragraph 3. Advertising does influence content.

Which is why the current media won't say anything positive about vaccine critics.
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#77 of 430 Old 04-15-2016, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This thread was just getting interesting!

So bumping it up again.
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#78 of 430 Old 05-05-2016, 06:53 PM
 
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@Deborah

I came across this today and thought of this thread.

http://m.kcci.com/news/longtime-iowa-farm-cartoonist-fired-after-creating-this-cartoon/39337816

There's a hyperlink in the article to view the cartoon its "that offensive" * eyeroll.

If this is how Big Ag pushes around a town newspaper, imagine the leverage they have over entire networks. sickening.

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."—Voltaire
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#79 of 430 Old 05-05-2016, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.kcci.com/news/longtime-io...rtoon/39337816 maybe this link will be live

great example, although not about vaccines.
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#80 of 430 Old 05-05-2016, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, and there are over 800 comments and someone is arguing that in order for it to be censorship, it has to be the government doing it.

How about we call it restriction of information? Narrowing of discourse?
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#81 of 430 Old 05-07-2016, 05:58 PM
 
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http://www.kcci.com/news/longtime-io...rtoon/39337816 maybe this link will be live

great example, although not about vaccines.
I was more thinking how it tied into your op when you started this thread. About the similarities between Big ag and Big pharma based on the book you were reading.

In regards to the cartoonist. If all the Big ag companies can come together to pull their advertising from a small town newspaper because the newspaper ran a cartoon about the truth of their business, then its no wonder how they manage to control many other forms of press and media. Flip through many magazines now days and all you see are pharma ads. The Drs they have write monthly articles for them are always spot on with current recommendations and shun anything natural. They never publish critical thought pieces on medicine because theyd lose their ads from pharma. The same applies to the media and all the direct to consumer advertising.

I think once people start seeing these similarities, they may begin to realize just how much these big companies control in the media. Its not just vaccines/medicine, its a whole slew of industries that are in a sense...paying hush money to the press so they remain compliant and unquestioning about their products. I agree its a form of censorship. The public isnt getting the whole picture.
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#82 of 430 Old 05-07-2016, 06:04 PM
 
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Oh, and there are over 800 comments and someone is arguing that in order for it to be censorship, it has to be the government doing it.

How about we call it restriction of information? Narrowing of discourse?
Lol, whats that saying...you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. We can call it whichever to be politically correct or legally accurate, but when capitalist giant corporations get so big that their lobbying turns them into puppeteers of the government...does it even matter at that point? I mean at what point does that line become so blurred that you dont know whos controlling what but all you know is that theres censorship happening.
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#83 of 430 Old 05-07-2016, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Lol, whats that saying...you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. We can call it whichever to be politically correct or legally accurate, but when capitalist giant corporations get so big that their lobbying turns them into puppeteers of the government...does it even matter at that point? I mean at what point does that line become so blurred that you dont know whos controlling what but all you know is that theres censorship happening.
I bet putting lipstick on a pig would be really difficult. Especially for me as I don't own any lipstick.

Censoring a cartoonist and claiming that it isn't censorship is much easier!
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#84 of 430 Old 05-07-2016, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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@littlebear3
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I was more thinking how it tied into your op when you started this thread. About the similarities between Big ag and Big pharma based on the book you were reading.
I'd forgotten where this thread took off from...I read so many books.

Right now I'm listening to a book about guns. The Gunning of America: Business and the Making of American Gun Culture. There are a lot of guns in America because we had gun manufacturers who had guns to sell. They also sold lots of guns in other countries...

I'm also reading a fascinating book about organizations. Reinventing organizations: a guide to creating organizations inspired by the next stage of human consciousness

Also a fascinating story, although you have to wade through some theoretical stuff before you get to the interesting parts. What I'm getting out of it is that my natural way of working and dealing with the world is the sort of organization he describes. I have been fortunate enough to find opportunities to work in places where I could be employed but still be fairly free and creative. I certainly run my library in a very open, relaxed way and everyone who works there can do pretty much what they want as long as they don't go too far over budget. It is interesting to hear about quite large companies that operate with open, unstructured and level organizations, however.

I thinkthis is one of the reasons I so dislike vaccine mandates. It is a top down control measure based on fear and greed. Not a very good path to health, seriously.
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#85 of 430 Old 05-08-2016, 06:19 PM
 
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I bet putting lipstick on a pig would be really difficult. Especially for me as I don't own any lipstick.

Censoring a cartoonist and claiming that it isn't censorship is much easier!
Agreed
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#86 of 430 Old 05-08-2016, 06:25 PM
 
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@littlebear3

I'm also reading a fascinating book about organizations. Reinventing organizations: a guide to creating organizations inspired by the next stage of human consciousness

Also a fascinating story, although you have to wade through some theoretical stuff before you get to the interesting parts. What I'm getting out of it is that my natural way of working and dealing with the world is the sort of organization he describes. I have been fortunate enough to find opportunities to work in places where I could be employed but still be fairly free and creative. I certainly run my library in a very open, relaxed way and everyone who works there can do pretty much what they want as long as they don't go too far over budget. It is interesting to hear about quite large companies that operate with open, unstructured and level organizations, however.

I thinkthis is one of the reasons I so dislike vaccine mandates. It is a top down control measure based on fear and greed. Not a very good path to health, seriously.
Ill add that to my reading list as that is a topic that interests me.

Well as always, I greatly enjoy your threads about books ☺.

Side note, running a library sounds like a dream job for my personality. lucky gal!
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#87 of 430 Old 05-08-2016, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The whole thing of shutting down discussion and alternative points of view and then crowning the dirty dealing by saying "it isn't censorship" is an example of PR games at their finest.

Do people really get suckered by this sort of hair-splitting?
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#88 of 430 Old 05-08-2016, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Moving over to a vaccine example, this is from Texas, trying to convince parents that getting all of the CDC recommended vaccines, rather than just the vaccines required for school is a smart move. http://www.immunizeusa.org/about-us/...s-really-need/

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Another vaccine with no mandate in Texas? The HPV vaccine. In 2013, only 53.8 percent of girls ages 13 to 17 had received even one dose of the vaccine (three are necessary to be fully protected). The CDC estimates that if we reach 80 percent adherence, we could prevent 50,000 cases of cervical cancer in women. It's even worse for boys: Only 34.6 percent of boys ages 13 to 17 had received one dose in 2013. The immunization is commonly thought to be just for women, but the HPV vaccine can protect against cancer of the throat, mouth, penis and anus in men. The low adherence should be especially alarming to Texans: The state has one of the highest rates of HPV infection in the nation.
Originally published in a mainstream newspaper, but coming from a "non-profit" The Immunization Partnership. They have links to their IRS 990 forms http://www.immunizeusa.org/about-us/...-form-990/#irs for the last several years. I looked through the 2014 form. They got close to a million in grants, but do not enumerate where the grants came from. They do fund-raising events, but don't raise enough to cover much of what they do.
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vaccine injury is preventable
prevent it
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(if the government still allows you to say no...) #teamvaxchoice
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#89 of 430 Old 05-09-2016, 04:45 AM
 
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Moving over to a vaccine example, this is from Texas, trying to convince parents that getting all of the CDC recommended vaccines, rather than just the vaccines required for school is a smart move. http://www.immunizeusa.org/about-us/...s-really-need/

Originally published in a mainstream newspaper, but coming from a "non-profit" The Immunization Partnership. They have links to their IRS 990 forms http://www.immunizeusa.org/about-us/...-form-990/#irs for the last several years. I looked through the 2014 form. They got close to a million in grants, but do not enumerate where the grants came from. They do fund-raising events, but don't raise enough to cover much of what they do.
On my phone so can't quote appropriately but wow! That HPV vax is starting to resemble forced prepuce amputation (aka circumcision) in all the things it will prevent! Smh.

Sus
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#90 of 430 Old 05-09-2016, 07:11 AM
 
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On my phone so can't quote appropriately but wow! That HPV vax is starting to resemble forced prepuce amputation (aka circumcision) in all the things it will prevent! Smh.

Sus
Or Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap.
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I'm the crunchy mom Dr. Amy warned you about.
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