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#1 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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In his march to war, President Bush exaggerated the threat to the American people. It was not subtle. It was not nuanced. It was pure, unadulterated fear-mongering, based on a devious strategy to convince the American people that Saddam's ability to provide nuclear weapons to Al Qaeda justified immediate war.

Administration officials suggested the threat from Iraq was imminent, and went to great lengths to convince the American people that it was.
Quote:
In his State of the Union Address in January 2003, President Bush said, "Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaeda," and that he could provide "lethal viruses" to a "shadowy terrorist network."
but...

Quote:
A year before the war began, senior Al Qaeda leaders themselves had rejected a link with Saddam. The New York Times reported last June that a top Al Qaeda planner and recruiter captured in March 2002 told his questioners last year that "the idea of working with Mr. Hussein's government had been discussed among Al Qaeda leaders, but Osama bin Laden had rejected such proposals." According to the Times, an Al Qaeda chief of operations had also told interrogators that it did not work with Saddam.

Mel Goodman, a CIA analyst for 20 years, put it bluntly: "Saddam Hussein and bin Laden were enemies. Bin Laden considered and said that Saddam was the socialist infidel. These were very different kinds of individuals competing for power in their own way and Saddam Hussein made very sure that Al Qaeda couldn't function in Iraq."

http://kennedy.senate.gov/~kennedy/s...005B10439.html

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#2 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 12:23 PM
 
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We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002
Quote:
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002
Gee Ted, did you change your mind

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The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons." -
Senator Ted Kennedy (D, MA), September 3, 2002

Quote:
"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter 1998
http://www.perryonpolitics.com/archives/000989.html

Quote:
In October of 1998, the Iraq Liberation Act unanimously passes the Senate, making it the official policy of the U.S. government to seek regime change in Iraq. That every Democrat in the Senate, including Kennedy, votes to advance Bush's conspiracy so early — when Bush is still governor of Texas — speaks well of Bush's ability to build bipartisan coalitions. Although it's impossible to know without access to congressional phone logs, Rove must have worked the phones very hard.
http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0401210928.asp

Ted Kennedy is just singing to the choir.
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#3 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 12:37 PM
 
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So when you realize that you've been lied to, as well as the American people you are sworn to serve, you should just "keep quiet" in case the National Review decides to call you a "flip flopper"?

Give me a break.

He has more integrity in hislittle TOE than W has in his entire administration. And YES, I'm old enough to know ALL about Chappaquiddick... and I *still* think he's got more integrity!

Lo
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#4 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 01:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beccaboomom
Ted Kennedy is just singing to the choir.
First, let's take that first quote from Sen. Kennedy and put it into context:

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed.

"How can we best achieve this objective in a way that minimizes the risks to our country? How can we ignore the danger to our young men and women in uniform, to our ally Israel, to regional stability, the international community, and victory against terrorism?

"There is clearly a threat from Iraq, and there is clearly a danger, but the Administration has not made a convincing case that we face such an imminent threat to our national security that a unilateral, pre-emptive American strike and an immediate war are necessary.

"Nor has the Administration laid out the cost in blood and treasure of this operation.

"With all the talk of war, the Administration has not explicitly acknowledged, let alone explained to the American people, the immense post-war commitment that will be required to create a stable Iraq.

"The President's challenge to the United Nations requires a renewed effort to enforce the will of the international community to disarm Saddam. Resorting to war is not America's only or best course at this juncture. There are realistic alternatives between doing nothing and declaring unilateral or immediate war. War should be a last resort, not the first response. Let us follow that course, and the world will be with us – even if, in the end, we have to move to the ultimate sanction of armed conflict."

More here:
http://kennedy.senate.gov/~kennedy/s...002A07621.html

Funny, who sounds like he was spot-on with regard to the Iraq adventure?

That's the problem when one takes bits and pieces from a partisan source and fail to look at the whole enchilada.

Now, lots of people did believe that Iraq had at least some WMD before the 2003 invasion. The problem with the right-wing windbags don't appear to acknowledge in the current round of 'talking points' is that only after the fall of Baghdad, many became aware that people in the administration, the CIA, the State Dept.'s Bureau of Intelligence and Research, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Air Force, the Department of Energy etc. etc. etc. had raised flags on a variety of the dubious evidence that Dubya Inc. used to justify the war. From the fabricated intelligence spoon-fed by the source named 'The Curveball', to the bogus Niger documents, to the aluminum tubes, to the silly drones, all pushed by the administration, along with a mushroom cloud referenced here and there.

Also, Dubya Inc. and its apologists conveniently skip the fact that UN inspectors had been in Iraq for months just before the March invasion and, with the help of U.S. intelligence, found no evidence of WMD. What did Dubya Inc. and its apologists do? The usual derision campaign against Hans Blix et al. Again, who ended up being right?

Here's the deal: Dubya Inc. made arguments for a war of choice with such certainty of its reasons for war, KNOWING that elements of its own administration questioned the veracity of much of this now discredited evidence. Why was that? Why did Bush et al. not present to Americans the observations by the DIA that it viewed that al an Qaeda official who claimed that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons as a fabricator (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/po...wanted=print)? Why did Dubya Inc. not note at all that CIA and DIA experts viewed Adnan Ihsan Saeed al Haideri, a Iraqi defector who supplied information on alleged nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons sites, as unreliable (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwash...printstory.jsp )? We could go on and on, but why bother?

But you go and keep on carrying the water for a failed administration beccaboomom. Maybe you'll get some of the those in the ever growing numbers who believe that the president and his posse misled this nation into the Iraq war to change their minds, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
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#5 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 02:03 PM
 
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Great post, RowansDad.
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#6 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 03:14 PM
 
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Actually it is quite a successful administration. The economy is robust despite being at war. Housing starts are at an all time high. Consumer confidence continues to remain level. Unemployment is low.

We could go on and on, but the detractors think this was JUST about nuclear weapons. It wasn't and we were right and just to invade Iraq and remove that horrible leader.

But you just keep on with your pablum...and maybe you might make Saddam's defense easier and he will be reinstalled as dictator. The rest of us knew this would take years and not be over before the next commercial break. We knew there would be loss of life, but we know that staying the course will bring forth a better Iraq.

We don't buy the alleged unreliable/fabricated evidence as there has been no proof such evidence was fabricated. We also put no stock in alleged classified (who is going after that leak since your side is so concerned with leaks, but I digress) memos coming to light.
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#7 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 03:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
We don't buy the alleged unreliable/fabricated evidence as there has been no proof such evidence was fabricated. We also put no stock in alleged classified (who is going after that leak since your side is so concerned with leaks, but I digress) memos coming to light.
Who is this 'we' Flagger?
New AP Poll: Most Don't Think Bush Is Honest, Ethical
http://www.nbc17.com/news/5303341/detail.html
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#8 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 03:48 PM
 
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The we who don't get our fabricated produced news from the mainstream media. The we who doesn't believe the president should govern according to polls.
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#9 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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Actually it is quite a successful administration. The economy is robust despite being at war. Housing starts are at an all time high. Consumer confidence continues to remain level. Unemployment is low.
Off post a bit, but all of this was accomplished by pushing the country spectacularly into massive debt. I could put a second mortgage on my house and say that I had a good year since I doubled my disposable income. Same thing.
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#10 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 03:58 PM
 
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#11 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 04:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
The we who don't get our fabricated produced news from the mainstream media. The we who doesn't believe the president should govern according to polls.
Ok, just for kicks and giggles Flagger, can you show me how either of these articles are 'fabricated':

"A high Qaeda official in American custody was identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons, according to newly declassified portions of a Defense Intelligence Agency document.

"The document, an intelligence report from February 2002, said it was probable that the prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, "was intentionally misleading the debriefers" in making claims about Iraqi support for Al Qaeda's work with illicit weapons."

From:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/po...gewanted=print


"The Bush administration helped rally public and congressional support for a preemptive invasion of Iraq by publicizing the claims of an Iraqi defector months after he showed deception in a lie detector test and had been rejected as unreliable by U.S. intelligence agencies.

"The defector, Adnan Ihsan Saeed al Haideri, claimed he'd worked at illegal chemical, biological and nuclear facilities around Baghdad. But when members of the Iraq Survey Group, the CIA-run effort to trace Saddam Hussein's illegal weapons, took Saeed back to Iraq earlier this year, he pointed out facilities known to be associated with the conventional Iraqi military. He couldn't identify a single site associated with illegal weapons, U.S. officials told Knight Ridder.

"The overall impression was that he was trying to pass information far beyond his area of expertise," said a senior U.S. official. He and another U.S. official spoke on condition of anonymity because some details of the defector's case remain classified.

"Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday that other defectors fed him and the CIA misleading information about Iraqi mobile biological weapons facilities before the war.

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and in some cases, deliberately misleading. And for that I am disappointed and I regret it," Powell said on NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday.

From:
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwash...printstory.jsp
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#12 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
The we who don't get our fabricated produced news from the mainstream media. The we who doesn't believe the president should govern according to polls.

Unless, of couse, the mainstream media area saying something you like :

This is a tree on fire with love, but it's still scary since most people think love only looks like one thing instead of the whole world. *
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#13 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RowansDad
Ok, just for kicks and giggles Flagger, can you show me how either of these articles are 'fabricated':
The New York Times. I need say no more.
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#14 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 04:25 PM
 
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The president takes on War Critics:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...pstory/3454861

Quote:
"The stakes in the global war on terror are too high and the national interest is too important for politicians to throw out false charges," the president said in his combative Veterans Day speech.

"While it's perfectly legitimate to criticize my decision or the conduct of the war, it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began," the president said.

...

Bush said that foreign intelligence services and Democrats and Republicans alike were convinced at the time that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

...

Bush also said they know the United Nations passed more than a dozen resolutions citing Saddam's development and possession of weapons of mass destruction.

"More than 100 Democrats in the House and the Senate who had access to the same intelligence voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power," he said.

...

The president said the criticism has taken a toll on U.S. forces.

"These baseless attacks send the wrong signal to our troops and to an enemy that is questioning America's will," Bush said.

"As our troops fight a ruthless enemy determined to destroy our way of life, they deserve to know that their elected leaders who voted to send them to war continue to stand behind them," the president said. "Our troops deserve to know that this support will remain firm when the going gets tough. And our troops deserve to know that, whatever our differences in Washington, our will is strong, our nation is united and we will settle for nothing less than victory."

"We will never back down. We will never give in. We will never accept anything less than complete victory," Bush declared.
Just hearing him speak gives me a thrill. I am so proud of our president.
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#15 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 04:32 PM
 
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"More than 100 Democrats in the House and the Senate who had access to the same intelligence voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power," he said.
They got their intelligence from the Administration. And if the Administration cherry picked it, lied, etc., then no, they didn't have access to the same intelligence. All the Administration and the GOP have to do is to come through with the phase 2 investigation into the sources of the War in Iraq that they promised before the last election. Since they are stalling, it looks like they are lying. At least most Americans seem to think so.
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#16 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 04:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
The New York Times. I need say no more.
Bit of a cowardly cop out there Flagger.

Newly Released Data Undercut Prewar Claims

"In February 2002, the Defense Intelligence Agency questioned the reliability of a captured top al Qaeda operative whose allegations became the basis of Bush administration claims that terrorists had been trained in the use of chemical and biological weapons in Iraq, according to declassified material released by Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.).

"Referring to the first interrogation report on al Qaeda senior military trainer Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, the DIA took note that the Libyan terrorist could not name any Iraqis involved, any chemical or biological material used or where the training occurred. As a result, "it is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers," a DIA report concluded."

From:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...501267_pf.html

Pssst..the Post editorial board backed the Iraq invasion.

Also, the second article referenced in post 11 is from Knight Ridder.
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#17 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
Quote:
The we who don't get our fabricated produced news from the mainstream media. The we who doesn't believe the president should govern according to polls.
Is fox news now considered mainstream?

Quote:
Today, 36 percent of Americans approve and 53 percent disapprove of the job Bush is doing as president. For comparison, two weeks ago 41 percent said they approved and 51 percent disapproved, and at the beginning of his second term 50 percent approved and 40 percent disapproved (January 25-26).
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175184,00.html

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#18 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 05:36 PM
 
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Some people form their opinions based on the facts.

Others? Well, they try to form "facts" based on their opinions.
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#19 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 05:40 PM
 
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Some of today's rant from Dubya that Flagger kindly posted reminds me of Otter's observation to Flounder in the flick Animal House: "You fucked up! You trusted us! Hey, make the best of it!".

It is worth going back and noting all the affirmative statements ("no doubt", "no question", "know for a fact", "is expanding") that the administration used in the run-up to the invasion , especially in light of the information we now know in just how much the U.S. didn't know:
http://zfacts.com/p/581.html
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#20 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bush said in his speech today:
"More than 100 Democrats in the House and the Senate who had access to the same intelligence voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power," he said

Which is false. Congress does NOT get the same intelligence as the prez.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/11/11/iraq-intel/

Again I repeat:
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DESERVE THE TRUTH!!!!

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#21 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 07:15 PM
 
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AGAIN I REPEAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GOT THE TRUTH AND SO DID THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES!!!

Thinkprogress is highly questionable when it comes to the truth. Why did Clinton bomb Iraq in 1998 and make claims of a WMD programme? Did Saddam just suddenly stop in five years? "Oh well I will stop now."

Hillary voted for the war and saw the same intelligence.

Ok here is a question for all you people who believe this pablum about the admin lying, etc. Well what do we do now? I wait with baited breath for your inspired answers.
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#22 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 07:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
AGAIN I REPEAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GOT THE TRUTH AND SO DID THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES!!!
Ya think?

"On October 1, 2002, Tenet produced a declassified NIE. But Graham and Durbin were outraged to find that it omitted the qualifications and countervailing evidence that had characterized the classified version and played up the claims that strengthened the administration's case for war.

For instance, the intelligence report cited the much-disputed aluminum tubes as evidence that Saddam "remains intent on acquiring" nuclear weapons. And it claimed, "All intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons and that these tubes could be used in a centrifuge enrichment program"--a blatant mischaracterization. Subsequently, the NIE allowed that "some" experts might disagree but insisted that "most" did not, never mentioning that the DOE's expert analysts had determined the tubes were not suitable for a nuclear weapons program. The NIE also said that Iraq had "begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents"--which the DIA report had left pointedly in doubt. Graham demanded that the CIA declassify dissenting portions.

"In response, Tenet produced a single-page letter. It satisfied one of Graham's requests: It included a statement that there was a "low" likelihood of Iraq launching an unprovoked attack on the United States. But it also contained a sop to the administration, stating without qualification that the CIA had "solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade." Graham demanded that Tenet declassify more of the report, and Tenet promised to fax over additional material. But, later that evening, Graham received a call from the CIA, informing him that the White House had ordered Tenet not to release anything more."

From:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...630selling.htm

Note that The New Republic backed the invasion of Iraq.
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#23 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 08:50 PM
 
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So it is written down it must be true. :roll eyes DO you have anything better than a two year old article?

Again

Quote:
Ok here is a question for all you people who believe this pablum about the admin lying, etc. Well what do we do now? I wait with baited breath for your inspired answers.
How typical that after more than an hour there has been no response.
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#24 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 08:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
So it is written down it must be true. :roll eyes

Again


How typical that after more than an hour there has been no response.
My opinion on the question of 'what should we do if we know that the administration lied to get us into this war' is that we begin planning a withdrawl now with a definite timetable, and start impeachment proceedings.

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#25 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 09:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
So it is written down it must be true. :roll eyes
What are you, sixteen?

Hey Flagger, you still haven't answered 'fabrication' questions here https://www.mothering.com/discussions...8&postcount=11 and here https://www.mothering.com/discussions...7&postcount=16 so don't expect me to jump threw hoops to answer your question.

Next, said question is off-topic and sure seems like a clumsy bit of redirection on your part. Why don't you start a new thread with that same question.
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#26 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 09:20 PM
 
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Still waiting for Flagger to answer the question of why our ginormous debt is a good thing. ("War is expensive" doesn't count.)

Take the time to heal from your marriage before you move on with someone else. Make a list of all the qualities you would like in a new partner and then work on growing that way yourself. ~mandib50
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#27 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RowansDad
What are you, sixteen?

Hey Flagger, you still haven't answered 'fabrication' questions here https://www.mothering.com/discussions...8&postcount=11 and here https://www.mothering.com/discussions...7&postcount=16 so don't expect me to jump threw hoops to answer your question.

Next, said question is off-topic and sure seems like a clumsy bit of redirection on your part. Why don't you start a new thread with that same question.
Already answered your question thanks. Your alleged articles are from known fabricators of the truth. Anything that comes off their presses is to be treated as suspect and alleged until proven true. What are you like the king of links? The king of what OTHERS state as fact. No one knows what your own opinion is only that you can find the opinions of others.

Nice bit of redirection on your part though.
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#28 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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known fabricators of the truth.
Thats an interesting notion...hmmm...who else fits that description?

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#29 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Flagger
Already answered your question thanks. Your alleged articles are from known fabricators of the truth.
Hoot man....what a weasel answer Flagger!

The Washington Post and the author of the posted article Walter Pincus are known fabricators of truth? Please show an example and/or an alegation.

The Knight Ridder news service and Jonathan Landay
are a known fabricators of truth? Please show an example and/or an allegation.
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#30 of 48 Old 11-11-2005, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ya know flagger, just because rush says something doesn't make it true. He has kennedy's response to bush's speeh on his website. Well kinda. not the whole thing. because then he would be giving his followers a little too much info. then they might actually have to think about something. no he just picks the parts that he thinks serve his purpose.
By the way, where do you get your news from?

Mama to ds 6/00 and dd 1/09
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