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5 year old doesn't want to go to school anymore

1150 Views 24 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  MommyofThreeAON, 
M
Hi everyone, I am new to the Mothering.com forums.

I have been searching for answers on what to do for my daughter because I feel like I have exhausted all that I know how to do. She is 5 years old and started Kindergarten in September of '08. Her birthday is October 4th, so I thought she would be ready for Kindergarten, and she was doing very well for about 2 1/2 months.

She has gone to half day day care and half day pre school before starting Kindergarten full day. She was doing absolutely great until December, always getting green notes, then suddenly started bringing home yellow notes. She was getting about 2 per week, then they suddenly started increasing. I was constantly having conferences with the teacher, even staying in class with her (those days, she got green notes if I got there early), and then started to get worse again (some red notes, poking classmates with pencils, hitting children, but that all stopped within a week and a half). She does great academically, and is ready for school, very smart, reading books already and knows her numbers to 100.

Well, she won't get another green note to save her life. I've tried rewards, timers, punishment, spankings for red notes and severe yellow (they have 3 levels), she's rarely getting recess at school now and is simply not enjoying school anymore.

She told me today "Mommy, I don't want to go to school anymore. I am bad because I don't want to go anymore. I can't get green notes because I am bad, so I don't want to go to school." She is not bad at all. Her teacher even says how sweet she is. So I think she is deliberately not listening and doing what she isn't supposed to do because she doesn't like being there.

Her teacher tells me that she won't listen to her in class. She often has to tell Olivia to do things three times and she gets yellow notes for not being obedient and not respecting her teacher. There was even an occasion where all the children had their heads down in class and Olivia jumps up... and starts doing cheers. The teacher couldn't believe her eyes. Needless-to-say, she sat down after being told three times to do so and got her clip moved to 10 minutes. I think she just doesn't like being told what to do. And this started all of a sudden!

She has been moving around badly during circle time (carpet time), and now has an X with her name on it on the carpet - no freedom to sit where she wants. Her teacher seems nice enough, but Olivia seems to have a problem with her, but won't tell me that she has any problems with her. "I like Mrs. James." she tells me.

She obviously is disliking school really bad. It's almost the end of April now, and school will be out in June. It seems so late in the year to try to switch her to another class, and I can't home school her because I am enlisting in the National Guard and my sister (who will be watching my kids) will not be able to do that while going to school and working herself (she also has her own daughter who is 1).

I have scheduled a doctors appointment to check her vision and hearing, and there is a hearing test at school on Thursday. I really don't think either of those things are the problem as she does not show any signs of hearing loss or vision impairment at home or in school.

She's not hyperactive although she does vie for my attention often (she is the middle child, I have a 1 year old son and a 10 year old son and I work from home so although I am home, I'm not REALLY home, you know what I mean?

So... please advise. I don't know what else to do about her not wanting to go to school, but I don't want to torture her by forcing her to go.
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TiredX2
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First, Welcome to Mothering!


Mothering is supportive of both AP (Attachment Parenting) and NFL (Natural Family Living. Here is some information about the site:

http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html

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Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent, and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion, and race. See statement of purpose below.
I want to give your issues some real thought, and plan to come back and post later. It sounds like you have tried everything you can think of and are getting pretty frustrated. I can definately understand that
I know that I have times dealing with DS sometimes because our thought process are just *so* different, it's hard for me to understand his motivations.

I'm sure you will get some great advice here. You might also want to post in the "Learning At School" forum for school advice:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=51
The posters in "Gentle Discipline" may also have some ideas:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=36
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M
Well, I can see why she doesn't want to go to school - all she is getting is negative feedback - both from school and from you. Everyone is telling her she is bad so why should she act any differently.

It sounds to me like she needs some positive encouragement instead of all the negative. Right now, the only thing she is getting is punishment. And for the record, I am totally against all kinds of punishments.

I really hate those color systems that teachers use because it labels the behavior but does not teach the child anything. I also think it would be extremely humiliating to receive this. Gosh, if I screw up at work, I wouldn't want to walk around wearing a sign that said "I screwed up".
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M
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TiredX2 View Post
First, Welcome to Mothering!


Mothering is supportive of both AP (Attachment Parenting) and NFL (Natural Family Living. Here is some information about the site:

http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html

I want to give your issues some real thought, and plan to come back and post later. It sounds like you have tried everything you can think of and are getting pretty frustrated. I can definately understand that
I know that I have times dealing with DS sometimes because our thought process are just *so* different, it's hard for me to understand his motivations.

I'm sure you will get some great advice here. You might also want to post in the "Learning At School" forum for school advice:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=51
The posters in "Gentle Discipline" may also have some ideas:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=36
I am looking forward to your post, and I have posted my concerns in the other boards you suggested. Thank you for your help.

Tamara
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M
Quote:

Originally Posted by MtBikeLover View Post
Well, I can see why she doesn't want to go to school - all she is getting is negative feedback - both from school and from you. Everyone is telling her she is bad so why should she act any differently.

It sounds to me like she needs some positive encouragement instead of all the negative. Right now, the only thing she is getting is punishment. And for the record, I am totally against all kinds of punishments.

I really hate those color systems that teachers use because it labels the behavior but does not teach the child anything. I also think it would be extremely humiliating to receive this. Gosh, if I screw up at work, I wouldn't want to walk around wearing a sign that said "I screwed up".
I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where you're lending any advice?

You seem very critical of me despite my having listed several methods that I've used over several months to help my daughter to revert back to enjoying school? My daughter constantly receives praise, but despite that she's unwilling to listen to her teacher, even for the sake of just having a pleasant time in school. I've never used the word "bad" with her as you can see by re-reading that part of my post, and neither has her teacher. I suspect she may be getting that from some of her classmates.

Were you just leaving a general comment? I wasn't sure, so I thought I would ask you.

Has your child expressed disliking school? Do you know anyone whose child has? What have they done specifically that I may try?

Thank you.
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M
Oh, I'm sorry to hear the tough times she is dealing with right now.

I think its become a domino affect now. I think some children react differently to punishment than other children. I know that my older son really digs in and gets angry at any perceived injustice. If she is that way, then each time she gets "in trouble" it just raises her stress level, and then she is living with that barrier daily. So now she can't really live joyfully like a 5 year old should.
:

It does sound like the teacher is relying a lot on rewards and punishments. Maybe a conference with her and principal would help. The whole green/yellow/red notes would drive me mad, and also recess and movement is not just a luxury for a young child, but truly required for healthy development. Children who act out like that are usually doing so because they are not stimulated. She may be bored with her school work, and in my opinion that is the problem of the adults, not the child.

So I guess you have to decide if you want to try a different route than the rewards/punishments, and then talk to the school as well. I don't believe all schools rely so heavily on such a system.

In the meantime, give her lots of one on one time, slow down and look into her eyes, smile a lot, and warm up her heart. Keep perspective on how little she is still. I know sometimes it is hard, trust me!
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eirual
Have you really talked with her about what's going on from her point of view? Ask lots of open-ended questions that require more than a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Try to help her put a positive spin on things and give her some options once you get to the root of the issue.

Even if a red note comes home, I'd take that as an oportunity to talk and communicate- leave the judgment of her behaviour at school (since it's clearly happening there). Could she be getting bored? Maybe you could set something up for her to do that's more appropriate than cheering if she's bored? Talk about games she can play in her head or on her fingers to herself when she has those little "I don't want to be here" moments.

How about friends? Special notes in her lunch box? Letting her wear one of your necklaces or something of yours so she feels safe?

Good luck mama! I hope for your DDs sake that you can sort it out. I felt crummy about school, but that didn't start 'til gr.6. I couldn't imagine it being horrible from the get-go.

P.S. Don't forget to trust your child. Sometimes we feel pressure to react to their behaviour by society, but don't loose sight of her perspective. She needs to be advocated for, not made to comply no questions asked. One day she's going to be grown and will reflect back on her experience. Will she feel she's been supported and advocated for or let down and pushed through? I know my brother who also struggled through school felt the latter, and my mom in retrospect wished she'd stuck by him more, not the teachers.
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M
Quote:

Originally Posted by MommyofThreeAON View Post
I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where you're lending any advice?

You seem very critical of me despite my having listed several methods that I've used over several months to help my daughter to revert back to enjoying school? My daughter constantly receives praise, but despite that she's unwilling to listen to her teacher, even for the sake of just having a pleasant time in school. I've never used the word "bad" with her as you can see by re-reading that part of my post, and neither has her teacher. I suspect she may be getting that from some of her classmates.

Were you just leaving a general comment? I wasn't sure, so I thought I would ask you.

Has your child expressed disliking school? Do you know anyone whose child has? What have they done specifically that I may try?

Thank you.
I didn't mean to sound so critical so I apologize that it came out that way. I really hate the use of that practice in classrooms so that probably came out in my post.

The advice I gave was to stop doing the punishments, as your post said you have tried punishments, including spanking (which MDC is against). I think you should also ask the teacher to stop doing the color cards with her as that just seems to be re-inforcing the negative behavior.

Yes - I have had a child express his desire to not go to school. And when I realized that every morning was a fight and was filled with negativity (me yelling to get ready, us ending up in a fight, etc), we talked about what would make things easier for him and I totally changed me. I took away all the negative things that were happening and made it as pleasant as I could.

ETA- I didn't mean anyone is literally telling her she is bad - it is being reinforced by the color system and the punishments.
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mbbinsc
My DS has hated elementary school, other than the social aspect. Except now that he is in 5th grade. He is a different kid since he is somewhat challenged and given more freedom of thought. Is you DD a bright kid who is bored? I took my son for testing and talked with ped in earlier years. The only diagnosis offered was Bored Bright Boy Syndrome. We finally had a guidance counselor to tell us to let school problems stay at school and enjoy DS at home. I am not sure if the teachers would have agreed with that advice but it helped us.
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Therese's Mommy
My guess is that she is bored. I know that when I was in school I caused all sorts of problems because I was bored. My 4yo dd is having a hard time behaving these days. I am pretty sure she is bored and needs to be challenged. I just ordered our home school curriculum and plan to hit the ground running in the next couple of weeks. When I watch her misbehave it seems very obvious that she is just looking for something to do. Good luck!
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Theoretica
2
First off mama welcome to MDC!!
I'm so glad you came here looking for input, it sounds like a frustrating situation to deal with


I'm replying to your same post in Learning at School since it's most on topic over there...
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Your DD entered K as a 4 yo, correct? Last year, my DSD entered K as a 4 yo (She also has an Oct birthday). When DH and her mom decided to try to get her into K early, the school told them that although many children are ready to enter K early academically, often they are not ready socially. DSD had to go through a screening process to be let in. And I'll be honest, I'm still not 100% convinced that she was ready socially.

She dislikes school quite a bit, even now that she is in 1st grade. School has always seemed stressful for my DSD. The teachers expect her to be able to complete tasks a little faster than she would like to, and this bothers her. She is in a language immersion program, and I don't think that this aspect of the school helps. She is well-behaved at school, but I think that it really taxes her. She is exhausted by the end of the day and usually really crabby. I often wonder if things would have been easier for her had her parents decided to give her one more year before sending her off to school.

With your DD, even though no one is telling her she is "bad," the color coded note system implies it. And the fact that the teacher is singling her out with the spot on the carpet is probably humiliating. After this amount of time, your DD may have given up on herself. She may just figure that she is a bad kid, so she might as well be bad.

If it were earlier in the school year, I would have suggested just pulling her out and trying again next year. At this point though, if she is doing fine academically, then hopefully by next year she will have matured a little and can make a fresh start in a new classroom. I would definitely talk about this over the summer - new teacher, new classroom, next year will be better. That way if she does feel labeled, you can empower her to shed that label over the break and start anew in the fall.

I wonder if there is some sort of activity that you could get her in over the summer that is fun, but would allow her to work on skills like listening and following directions? Maybe a few weeks of day camp or something like that - one with a really understanding and patient teacher/counselor?
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M
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mommy&Will View Post
Oh, I'm sorry to hear the tough times she is dealing with right now.

I think its become a domino affect now. I think some children react differently to punishment than other children. I know that my older son really digs in and gets angry at any perceived injustice. If she is that way, then each time she gets "in trouble" it just raises her stress level, and then she is living with that barrier daily. So now she can't really live joyfully like a 5 year old should.
:

It does sound like the teacher is relying a lot on rewards and punishments. Maybe a conference with her and principal would help. The whole green/yellow/red notes would drive me mad, and also recess and movement is not just a luxury for a young child, but truly required for healthy development. Children who act out like that are usually doing so because they are not stimulated. She may be bored with her school work, and in my opinion that is the problem of the adults, not the child.

So I guess you have to decide if you want to try a different route than the rewards/punishments, and then talk to the school as well. I don't believe all schools rely so heavily on such a system.

In the meantime, give her lots of one on one time, slow down and look into her eyes, smile a lot, and warm up her heart. Keep perspective on how little she is still. I know sometimes it is hard, trust me!
Thank you! Wow, that was really encouraging, I can't express the weights I feel lifted off of my shoulders.

I definitely want to try a different route than rewards and punishments, they are obviously not working and I've pretty much just stopped doing anything pending something better. I don't want to continue to try the same things when they're still amounting to her not being happy.

She gets perfect marks on all of her homework too, and it probably is way too easy because she finishes it up really quick before running outside or just before other activities (because she wants to do it, and she often reminds me she has work to do lol). I will talk to her teacher tomorrow about getting a conference together with her and the principal to see what can be done.

Thank you so much for your kind words and advice.

Tamara
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M
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Quote:

Originally Posted by eirual View Post
Have you really talked with her about what's going on from her point of view? Ask lots of open-ended questions that require more than a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Try to help her put a positive spin on things and give her some options once you get to the root of the issue.

Even if a red note comes home, I'd take that as an oportunity to talk and communicate- leave the judgment of her behaviour at school (since it's clearly happening there). Could she be getting bored? Maybe you could set something up for her to do that's more appropriate than cheering if she's bored? Talk about games she can play in her head or on her fingers to herself when she has those little "I don't want to be here" moments.

How about friends? Special notes in her lunch box? Letting her wear one of your necklaces or something of yours so she feels safe?

Good luck mama! I hope for your DDs sake that you can sort it out. I felt crummy about school, but that didn't start 'til gr.6. I couldn't imagine it being horrible from the get-go.

P.S. Don't forget to trust your child. Sometimes we feel pressure to react to their behaviour by society, but don't loose sight of her perspective. She needs to be advocated for, not made to comply no questions asked. One day she's going to be grown and will reflect back on her experience. Will she feel she's been supported and advocated for or let down and pushed through? I know my brother who also struggled through school felt the latter, and my mom in retrospect wished she'd stuck by him more, not the teachers.
Thank you and thank you again for your kindness and encouragement.

I have had many conversations with her with open ended questions and asked her how she was feeling and even what she wanted to do -- it all basically ends in her not wanting to be at school anymore. It has been 4 months since this behavior has started.

I haven't involved the principal which I will do this week, and I haven't gotten my daughter's hearing and vision checked just in case which I have scheduled for the 6th of May.

She loves dresses and skirts and pretty shoes, I think her teacher might think she's putting on a fashion show at this point lol. I have tried so many different things, and I'm really hoping to get her through this without damaging her toward the whole school experience. Do you think that it is a possibility that she just isn't mature enough yet? I didn't think that was an issue, but now I have all kinds of things swimming through my mind.

I think I certainly have to try harder to advocate for her though, because I have conversations with her and then I find out she fibbed or things were a bit worse than she let on, so it's been very difficult
I'm pushing through though, and I am trying to work out a solution that is good for her and that involves her.

Thanks again,

Tamara
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M
Quote:

Originally Posted by MtBikeLover View Post
I didn't mean to sound so critical so I apologize that it came out that way. I really hate the use of that practice in classrooms so that probably came out in my post.

The advice I gave was to stop doing the punishments, as your post said you have tried punishments, including spanking (which MDC is against). I think you should also ask the teacher to stop doing the color cards with her as that just seems to be re-inforcing the negative behavior.

Yes - I have had a child express his desire to not go to school. And when I realized that every morning was a fight and was filled with negativity (me yelling to get ready, us ending up in a fight, etc), we talked about what would make things easier for him and I totally changed me. I took away all the negative things that were happening and made it as pleasant as I could.

ETA- I didn't mean anyone is literally telling her she is bad - it is being reinforced by the color system and the punishments.
Thank you for responding and I appreciate your advice, it really is needed.

I have since stopped punishments, it's probably been about a month of pure exhaustion on my part, and the notes are there every single day. I have 3 children, my oldest is 10, and I have worked in and sent him to Waldorf schools until 1st grade, so I understand the nurturing versus punishment issue. I don't believe in punishing my child over something that she can't control or something that I believe isn't her problem to adjust (sometimes the teachers should be in charge of that), and at this point, I don't think she has anything to do with these yellow notes now.

I am definitely going to ask her teacher if she can stop the green/ yellow/ red thing with her, thank you for that suggestion - I hadn't even considered that as an option because it is used for the entire class - I just didn't think about that. Thank you!
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TiredX2
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First, another


I really understand how it's like to realize that your wonderful, smart, kind, active child just can't seem to "fit" into school.

Like I knew you would, you've already got some great advice.

How large is the school DD is going to? Do you have any idea if the "discipline" system this teacher is relying on is standard throughout the school. I really don't like the entire red, yellow, green light thing, but I have seen it done as well is it can be and IMO, this teacher is NOT doing that.

For example, you mentioned the example of all the children having their heads down and your DD jumping up. My first reaction--- why did all the children have their heads down? Was it a punishment? Is this a normal occurance? If so, why?

It sounds like DD is not getting virtually any recess. I can never understand a teacher who punishes children who obviously need MORE movement and excercise by removing their one outlet :dazed My DD's 3rd & 4th grade teacher said that removing recess is her LAST resort, because kids just need that time. And she was talking about 8-9 year olds, not 5 year olds who need it even more. My first request of the teacher would be that if your DD "needs" to stay in from recess that you are allowed to handle that at home instead.

How is DD moving "badly" at circle time? Is she just fidgetty? Instead of having an "X" to sit on, could she sit further away so her fidgets don't bother others? Do they do a lot of seat work? Do you think DD would do better sitting on a balance ball? DS is in a 1st/2nd grade class and there are a lot of kids (including DS) who have a hard time sitting still. There is a lot of crouching, bending over, leaning back, etc... The teacher tries to minimize it, but she also tries to help the kids with the most problems have their own sucess (one sits in the back so if he ends up on his knees or crouching, at least he's not blocking others, one sits in the front because he tends to "flop" over, they are all allowed to get up to get a drink if they need to move--- and this is only for sitting for a few minutes).

What has the teacher suggested? What different things has she tried? Honestly, I'm reading the things and thinking, "that just doesn't sound *that* bad." I have a 5th grader and a 2nd grader and have seen all of the behavior you describe multiple times and the teachers just didn't consider it that big of a deal. Yes, they tried to help the child settle down. And yes, they made it clear that poking or hitting was unacceptable. But 5 year olds just aren't genereally expected to *never* interrupt or hold still (esp with no recess).

I am really surprised that a teacher would also consistently give yellow and reds like that without asking for counselor or principal intervention. When DS had that policy in his class yellows and reds were actually a pretty big deal. Most kids could get mostly greens and still have several "mistakes" daily. And a yellow did not necessarily result in any punishment futher than actually having the yellow.

Outside of school, how does DD release stress? Is there anyway you can have that method accomidated in school?

Is DD *learning* in school? Does she get engaged and challenged on a daily basis or is is just stuff she has done many times before. If she is academically bored, is there hope that will change in the future?
Good luck!
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E
I haven't read all the replies so do excuse me if I repeat anything anyone else has said.

Welcome to MDC - you'll love it here.

My dd loathed school last year - we found out the problem just this year - dd couldn't tell until then. What helped her during that time was a small photo album to remind her that we all loved her if she felt lonely or sad - that was really the big thing for us - it may be something you would like to try.

Also the books Liberated Parents, Liberated Children and How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk both books by Faber Mazlish - which are wonderful and can give you the tools to deal in different ways than you mentioned in your original post.

Need to expand later as the wee ones need help .....
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MommyofThreeAON View Post
I am definitely going to ask her teacher if she can stop the green/ yellow/ red thing with her, thank you for that suggestion - I hadn't even considered that as an option because it is used for the entire class - I just didn't think about that. Thank you!
They need to take your opinion and feelings into account. Just because they do it with the rest of the class doesn't necessarily mean they have to do it with your daughter. Be adament about this and push back a lot.

For example, the preschool where my kids have gone to school does practice timeout. I was very clear and reiterate it at every parent conference that my children are NEVER to be placed in timeout. None of the teachers have had an issue with this. They ask me how to handle the kids and I tell them what works for us.

Now my DS is in K and I first heard about the red/yellow/green cards from MDC and was absolutely certain I did not want my child to have that done to him so I spoke to the principal about it. She assured me that if the teacher did practice this that they could set something up more private for my DS. But we got really lucky in that his K teacher doesn't practice this - she doesn't like that system either. I just sent the 1st grade request off for next year and said that I did not want a teacher that used this system of rewards/punishments. For the record, I also told his K teacher no timeouts as well.

Everyone has been very respectful and understanding of our requests. I would suggest that you be proactive in teacher selection for next year and contact the school to let them know what kind of teacher your daughter needs and what you want in a teacher. Where I live, they are already working on next years placements. Then, when you meet the teacher, cover off discipline with the teacher. Find out what she does to get the kids under control and if you aren't comfortable with something then ask if there is something else that can be done. It is always the first thing I bring up when we meet a teacher for the first time.
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Theoretica
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MtBike....would you mind sharing with the OP (and us
) what techniques you encourage the teacher to use in lieu of the arbitrary/punitive color cards and time outs?

TYVM
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C
I don't punish my children at home for things that happen at school. I don't always agree with the way teachers do things in their classrooms, but that's part of the deal I made when I sent my kids to school. So I respect the teacher's authority in her classroom. But it stops at the classroom.

Fidgeting, not listening - this is stuff kids do in class all day, every day. Nothing you've described, IMO, is behavior that is serious enough to even think about at the end of the school day, much less punish for.

My son had the same "color system" and when he came home with a red check in his notebook I would say something like "I'm sorry you had a bad day," and just not mention it at all after that.

Once he got a red check for saying a "bad word" in the bathroom. I asked him what the bad word was and just casually said "well don't use those words at school."

The red checks decreased and have stopped completely now, except for the times he forgets his homework.

Everybody has bad days. Dwelling on the behavior at school and making a huge deal of it is part of what is making your daughter feel like she's bad.

FWIW, the teacher sounds like she has no idea how typical five year olds behave.
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