[mmaramba]

I know this is a difficult subject to discuss, but I thought I'd give it a go.

So many women tell us horror stories about birth, and a common response to women who express a desire for a natural/homebirth is that we will be "begging for the epidural."

I think there are a lot of societal issues at work here (sexism, classism, internalized misogyny, the mechanics of health care, resultant crabs-in-a-barrel mentalities), so I won't go into that. While confessions are for the good of confessor, I genuinely believe that most women who tell these horror stories also believe they are doing others a sort of service. I don't think that's the driving force behind this urge to "warn" other women, but I DO think it's the primary conscious motivation, if that makes any sense. That is, if you asked them "Why?" most would tell you that they don't want you to go what they went through.

It occurred to me, though, that what they may really be trying to prevent is not necessarily any pain, physical injury, etc., but feelings of guilt, powerlessness and/or inadequacy that they may have experienced after their births. Do you think that holds any water?

I.e., a woman who says "Don't be a hero/get the epidural as soon as you can/you don't get a medal/etc.," isn't just (or perhaps at all) trying to spare you pain, but rather to spare you what she may imagine is your future regret at your own "naivete" or sadness when your belief that your body is not defective-- or your belief that you have any agency in the birthing process-- is inevitably shaken or disproved, etc. That is, she may be trying to keep you from setting yourself up for certain "disappointment."

What do you think? Do you think this is true of women you know? Has it been true of you in the past? Or do you think these comments come from an entirely different place?

Sorry if this is overly esoteric. I guess that's what you get from a woman who doesn't even have kids yet.

 

[Carolyn R]

Unfortunately, I think their comments are a pretty direct reflection of how poorly our society treats a labor and delivery. After experiencing four very intense, natural deliveries, I feel like if I had been in a hospital and forced to lay on my back, with no emotional support from a doula or midwife, I probably would have been begging for pain relief, too. I think a woman whose only experience is a hospital birth cannot fathom how you could endure such pain without an epidural. She has not experienced the beauty and power of laboring in a comfortable environment, with a hand-chosen team of people who love you and have faith in your body's ability to birth your baby. That's my humble opinion.

 

[jrabbit]

It's ***all*** about support. Period. My first birth was in a hospital, and I was about 1 minute away from caving to an epidural, even though that was the only thing I was ever sure of: nobody would be putting a needle in my spine. While relaxing in the tub, waiting for the anesthesiologist, I recovered my strength and commitment and went on to a successful natural birth. In hindsight, I think I might have killed him, if they'd really tried to go through with it. (I had a spinal tap about 15 years ago, and I'm very unwilling to do that again, no matter what numbing agent they employ.)

But, I digress. I think that I was in that spiral of pressure that is the typical hospital culture. If I could fall victim to the "just get the epi" ploy, then why would anyone refuse it?

So, in hindsight, I think I'm still upset with my doula for not trying to walk me through that moment of weakness - I probably should have expressed more clearly why I didn't want it.

My second birth was at home, and of course, I wanted drugs in the heat of the moment, but I also remembered that labor pain is not long-lasting. I was able to work through it, and I've always maintained that it's manageable pain BECAUSE it's truly short-lived - to anyone who questions why I would do it without modern drugs. Ironically, I've probably only met 3 people in the last 5 years who have tried to argue with me about the drugs part of the birth. That's just something that most people associate with "normal" birth, and I think that a lot of ignorance exists - people probably think that home births have access to epidurals or something!

I'm probably not making much sense. I need to go to bed

--janis

 

[DahliaRW]

I think Carolyn R said it well. Women have such a lack of faith in their bodies, because no one actually trusts that their bodies will do what they are designed to.

My first was medicated in the hospital after I was on pitocin for 3 hours (those pit contractions were worse than transition in my 2nd natural birth).

My second was all natural at home, bigger baby by nearly 3 pounds and a 1 1/2 inch bigger head.

I still have pain from my epidural site. It took forever to recover from that first birth. My second I recovered from like a breeze. It was so easy!

I'll take the easy recovery after a painful labor over pain after birth any day!

 

[MsBlack]

Hmmmm, it is a tough question!

while it's likely that different women have different and even multiple underlying reasons/motivations for telling their horror stories, this is what strikes me from my own experience as a recipient of many horror stories. Mind you, I'm referring not just to birth stories, but also to horror stories that relate to matters like non-vaxing, relying upon natural remedies instead of modern medicine, AP, even homeschooling. All that 'weird stuff' I've done over the years!

Anyway--probably some part of the telling of horror stories is cautionary, hoping to spare someone pain/problems. But I also firmly believe that another part is the story teller's desire to avoid discovering that someone else might make different choices than she did and actually be successful--actually AVOID all the pain/fear/etc that the story teller endured. "If you do the way I did, then I will be affirmed in having made the choices I made. But if you do it differently, and are successful, then I might have to feel guilty/weak/stupid/whatever about the way I did it."

JMO

 

[ritz1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsBlack Anyway--probably some part of the telling of horror stories is cautionary, hoping to spare someone pain/problems. But I also firmly believe that another part is the story teller's desire to avoid discovering that someone else might make different choices than she did and actually be successful--actually AVOID all the pain/fear/etc that the story teller endured. "If you do the way I did, then I will be affirmed in having made the choices I made. But if you do it differently, aTod are successful, then I might have to feel guilty/weak/stupid/whatever about the way I did it."

Totally what I was going to say. Modern motherhood just seems to be riddled with self-doubt. And I think most of these "warnings" are given to affirm the story tellers own decision. Personally I know that I have found it difficult to support other parenting decisions while still holding strong to my own beliefs and decisions. It doesn't help that our society does not offer support to a diverse mothering culture. We are inundated with images and ideals of the perfect mom, so if anybody is doing something different, it must be wrong.

Hope this makes sense, but I know it's something I've been dealing with ever since I had DD. And now that we are having a homebirth, it's been brought to the forefront again.

 

[CarolBe]

Even at the church I go to it's a hard thing to discuss. I'm the "odd man out" becuase we don't vax, we cosleep and are planning our second homebirth. One of the ladies in the nursery is a public health nurse and has plenty of horror stories to go with everything. Not to mention there have been 4 or more women in our little church who have given birth in the last year and NONE of them had a midwife let alone a homebirth, they all believe in letting their kids cry it out, think that my extended breastfeeding of our 27 month old is taking it too far and that on the whole I'm being cavalier with our families needs. I don't think of myself as a "tree hugging hippy" that chains myself to a tree to fight the goverment and all things modern and society itself, but what gets me is that they expect me to just nod and smile at their decisions and then they argue with me about mine.
I think it's true that anyone that doesn't do things the way that society on the whole does them feels threatened by this, especially when statistics in other countries prove that homebirth and midwiffery care is safer, that maybe there's something to not vaxing, that not letting your child cry it out and letting them sleep with you may work and since they don't do those things, that the statistics and the proof in the pudding with your own family makes them feel threatened and challenges their way of thinking. Most people won't consider that they may be wrong, nobody likes to be, but I also think that some of them are afraid of what others will think of them in their own circles for even considering the likes of these things, I think so go with societal norms becuase they're afraid not to.
Carol

 

[hollycat]

omg, there are as many feelings about births as there are births as there are women. so many women find epidurals really supportive. some find them just a part of the process. some find them a denial of their bodies natural process. and about a million and one things in between.

im a supporter of whatever any mom wants and needs for herself. dividing women into sides about any issue makes me sad.

 

[acp]

I think there are different reasons and different motivations depending on the woman.
For some, I think they're genuinely trying to be helpful. Others, like you suggest, might be consciously or unconsciously trying to spare you from the disappointment you might feel since they're certain you'll end up with a more medicalized birth. Others might be sensing a judgment of their own, different decision in your decision to have a natural birth, whether or not you're actually judging them, and so the comments come in part from a place of defensiveness and justification and making themselves feel better about their birth. I think some of the "you don't have to be a hero/there's no medal" type of comments - especially if they feel a bit of an attack - can come from that place (again, consciously or unconsciously).

The reality, as hollycat says, is that I think there are as many "right" ways of birthing as there are kinds of women, and I wish people didn't need to try to convince others that "their" way is the only right way - whether it's trying to talk them into the epidural or talk them into a natural birth or home birth. I think every woman deserves information, and then she needs to make a decision that's right for her. My SIL is due any day now, and she's planning for an epidural in the hospital. I would never try to talk her out of it, and think my brother is wrong for trying to do so (he keeps holding my birth up as the model birth, which I think is a way to make her hate me....). When she told me the "I wouldn't do a root canal without pain medication" reason for me, I explained what my reasons were for having a natural birth, and why i didn't think that was an accurate comparison, but I also explained that I understood and supported why she wanted to do it differently.

I do think, though, that as with decisions about how to rear children, or pretty much any lifestyle decision, some comments that can seem like an attack or are trying to convince you to do it differently come because the person is either defensive about their own choices or thinks you're judging them for them. Not all, but some.

 

[mmaramba]

Ms. Black, I think you are spot-on as usual-- there's such an intense social pressure that keeps this machine going... And I mean not that some women wouldn't choose a medicalized route no matter what, nor that they shouldn't be supported... But that we live with a social machine, in this case, that abhors the free exchange of information. For me, this is not a particularly emotional decision... My mother is a doctor and I learned to trust evidence-based medicine, and the more I researched, the more I found that routine OB for low-risk women was not evidence-based. I am no longer convinced that I have to convince anyone otherwise, but like the PP, I very much want to be able to share my perspective, at least. Without judgment. Unfortunately, we don't live in a society where (most of the time) women can discuss the subject without defensiveness and feelings of inadequacy, so I generally keep my mouth shut IRL unless asked.

 

[emmaegbert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ritz1 Modern motherhood just seems to be riddled with self-doubt. And I think most of these "warnings" are given to affirm the story tellers own decision. Personally I know that I have found it difficult to support other parenting decisions while still holding strong to my own beliefs and decisions. It doesn't help that our society does not offer support to a diverse mothering culture.

This above has absolutely been true for me. I too find I have a hard a time accepting (if not supporting!) choices different from mine, and I think of myself as a very tolerant person. I try to remember that when I feel others are judging/deriding me. I haven't actually had too much of the "horror stories" about birth directed towards me, but when it comes up ("don't be a hero" type things) I choose-- at least, if they are my friends-- to take it in the best way possible, you know? I just decide to assume that they are trying to be kind/helpful. I also try to respond in as mild a way as possible (something like, "this is what I'm preparing for, but of course I know birth can be unpredictable", even, if you think they fear you are judgmental, you can say something that is not a lie like, "its good that medical interventions are available when they are needed"). (Okay, I took a really dumb childbirth education class in which the *teacher* said that "you don't get any medals" crap, and I was pretty peeved about that, and didn't really give her the benefit of the doubt).

If people really want to know more about why you are choosing what you choose, and how it works for you and your family, they will ask. Sometimes that conversation opens, sometimes (not often) people really are looking for new perspectives and ideas. But usually, they don't really want a lecture on natural childbirth, breastfeeding, cloth diapers, intact boys, healthy eating, gentle discipline, limiting television, etc. I assume that just mentioning it can be a good work (maybe they just didn't think anyone really did that) I just act like its totally normal but keep it short and to the point. For sure homebirth was like that for me- with my first pregnancy (I gave birth with midwives at a birth center) I really didn't even know HB was a realistic choice (wasn't aware of the HB midwives, didn't know my insurance would cover it). Then, I met more and more moms who had homebirths, I joined a natural parenting discussion board (local) and read frequent discussion about HB, and, by the time I was pregnant again, knew it was right for me.

Mostly, when these things come up, I try to remember that really, I don't know the challenges that other people have faced. In childbirth, or any other aspect of their parenting.

 

[Turquesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaramba I.e., a woman who says "Don't be a hero/get the epidural as soon as you can/you don't get a medal/etc.," isn't just (or perhaps at all) trying to spare you pain, but rather to spare you what she may imagine is your future regret at your own "naivete" or sadness when your belief that your body is not defective-- or your belief that you have any agency in the birthing process-- is inevitably shaken or disproved, etc. That is, she may be trying to keep you from setting yourself up for certain "disappointment."

My mother was more tactful: "Natural childbirth, huh? Well, just keep an open mind . . . "

Besides the words "don't be a hero," I've heard "don't be a martyr." I find it interesting that if a man wants to bungee jump from a canyon he's considered a studly bad"arse" (censored language

), but if a woman wants to do something as bold and courageous as having a baby as nature intended, she's dismissed as a "martyr." Labor and childbirth are the ultimate extreme sport!

 

[Romana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaramba So many women tell us horror stories about birth, and a common response to women who express a desire for a natural/homebirth is that we will be "begging for the epidural." <snip> I genuinely believe that most women who tell these horror stories also believe they are doing others a sort of service. I don't think that's the driving force behind this urge to "warn" other women, but I DO think it's the primary conscious motivation, if that makes any sense. That is, if you asked them "Why?" most would tell you that they don't want you to go what they went through. It occurred to me, though, that what they may really be trying to prevent is not necessarily any pain, physical injury, etc., but feelings of guilt, powerlessness and/or inadequacy that they may have experienced after their births. Do you think that holds any water? I.e., a woman who says "Don't be a hero/get the epidural as soon as you can/you don't get a medal/etc.," isn't just (or perhaps at all) trying to spare you pain, but rather to spare you what she may imagine is your future regret at your own "naivete" or sadness when your belief that your body is not defective-- or your belief that you have any agency in the birthing process-- is inevitably shaken or disproved, etc. That is, she may be trying to keep you from setting yourself up for certain "disappointment." What do you think? Do you think this is true of women you know? Has it been true of you in the past? Or do you think these comments come from an entirely different place?

I am very frank and honest about how physically awful birth was for me. Traumatically so. I've had two very uneventful births, one at home. However, physically the experiences were very difficult and the level of pain in the second birth was . . . indescribable.

I'm honest and forthright with women who ask "How was your home/natural birth?" because my first birth would have been less emotionally traumatic had I understood that I could, at no fault of my own, experience a very difficult/painful birth despite doing everything "right." I believe that a lot of women who have natural births that do not have the kinds of situations I did (for example, 7.5 hrs in transition for birth #1 and extreme, extreme pain for birth #2) don't really believe that it can be that bad or that it can be that hard for a woman without the woman having some sort of problem or hangup. But that just isn't the case.

While it's a minority, I've noticed that I'm not alone in my experiences with birth. There was nothing transcendant, enjoyable, or empowering about my homebirth; it was really awful. What was great about it was having a healthy mother and healthy baby at the end. (Hmm, that kinda sounds like what some women say about medical births . . . hated my C/S, love that we're here & healthy). My point is that the experience of natural or homebirth as being totally positive is not a universal one. For those women (granted, a minority) who experience natural birth in the same way that I have, I want them to be aware going in that it may happen, it isn't their fault if it does, and that BOTH (a) they can still do it unmedicated if they want to and (b) the epidural is a totally legitimate option at the mother's discretion. I would not wish the pain I experienced on anyone, and I completely understand why a woman in that situation would choose pain relief. It is not a decision you can make for another person, nor can you judge her for opting to avoid that kind of agony.

So I guess sometimes what I say comes off as a horror story. It's not; at least, that's not how I see it. But I would have valued hearing more honesty from women who DID have unpleasant homebirth or natural birth experiences, just so I really understood it might happen to me. It would have helped to have been prepared. I suffered mild PTSD for about a year after the birth of my first, and I believe it's because of the emotional trauma of feeling betrayed (by my body, by the NCB community, by my doctor) and guilty (what did I do wrong?), rather than due to the actual experience itself. The second birth was much easier emotionally despite being more difficult physically, and I believe that's because I was better prepared for that kind of scenario.

I never tell women that they'll be begging for an epidural, but I do sometimes emphasize that it is a legitimate, low-risk option for pain relief if a woman is experiencing a traumatic level of pain. YES, you can birth through that pain. NO, you do not, nor should you, have to. An epidural is not the default, but I believe it is a good thing that women have the option of that pain relief if and when needed.

I don't know if that directly answers your question; perhaps what I'm trying to articulate is a middle ground.

As for anyone who experienced the kind of pain I did during my homebirth who then got an epidural and had no resulting complications? I would expect any such person to encourage every woman to get an epidural. Screaming agony to the point of inconceivable physical torture vs. pressure or mild pain? Easy-peasy choice as long as you aren't really aware of the risks of an epidural or don't consider them worth taking into consideration (many people - more mainstream, for the most part -consider the risks of an epidural to be so low as to be unworthy of discussion). And I don't think that person would be doing it because afterwards she felt guilty or disappointed in herself for getting an epidural. She might feel stupid for not getting it sooner, or she might just want to spare any other woman what she went through before she got it. Birth can be really tough. For many women, an epidural really does make for a better birth experience, particularly if the environment (hospital) isn't NCB-friendly. I think that during a standard hospital birth, an epidural almost definitely makes the birth easier emotionally for the woman, because she isn't been pressured to get one or being poorly supported by nurses or doctors who don't understand NCB. It is a self-perpetuating system (woman goes in thinking no epidural, gets uncomfortable, everyone's offering her the epidural, stuck in bed, or not knowing what to do, getting more uncomfortable, eventually gets epidural, everyone is happier with her, she's no longer in much pain, baby gets born, mother's reflection is how much easier everything was after she got her epidural, and doctors and nurses see the same thing, so everyone continues to recommend it). This does not mean it's the best way for a particular woman to give birth, but from all sides of the circle the epidural fits into the hospital experience and is so much a part of it that it's quite difficult to deviate from that and the experience is unlikely to be good. You would have to have a supportive team and a lot of knowledge to make a non-epidural experience work/be positive in a standard hospital birth.

 

[claddaghmom]

I can't say that I agree. Every person who has done the epidural caution either got one immediately and never planned for a natural birth or was a man. So how do they know?

And I always say, "hey, you got an epidural asap right?"

They say "yes"

I say "so why do you say this is the most painful and traumatizing experience ever? Why even bother with an epidural if it was still that bad for you?"

 

[chic2chic]

: i agree with claddaghmom

most women have no idea what the experience (or even pain, if you would call it that) of natural birth is like, or anywhere close, and never get that experience because they get that epidural right away.

when i showed up at the hospital in labor with my first, i was 2cm dilated and the contrax were like occasional twinges. they offered me that epidural right away, and kept offering it every hour. (this particular place had a 99% epidural rate for all births) well, i kept declining it, thinking i could keep it up, it wasn't as bad as i had expected. next thing i knew, i pushed my baby out without one! (and was subsequently treated like some sort of alien by the hospital staff)

my point is that fear prevents many (or most?) women from even getting to the point where they think their bodies can't handle it without help.

romana, i'm sorry you had such traumatic births.

 

[zinemama]

I don't know. When I tell women that if they get hit with back labor, they might want to consider an epidural, it's not because I got the epi myself. It's because I do know what the full-on pain *can* be like for some women. I *didn't* get the epidural, and I wish I had.

Birth can be harder than we bargain on. Despite all our preparation, it can be more than we are prepared to handle. I've had two unmedicated births and I didn't feel particularly empowered by the hours of agony in either one of them. On the other hand, I know very well that many women have an easier time - for whatever reason - and I can only speak from my own experience.

I really think it's a personal thing; you may get a birth that's like scaling a steep hill or you might find yourself ascending Mt. Everest. When a woman who's been to Mt. Everest advises oxygen (i.e. the epidural), I don't think it's because she's trying to spare anyone feelings of guilt, inadequacy or future regret (I do think that's too esoteric). I think she's simply giving someone the benefit of her experience. The listener can take it or leave it.

 

[k13]

Wise words.

I admit that I often feel like people in our culture are particularly wimpy when it comes to pain. Martyr schmartyr, but I am a bit of a masochist so what can I say? I keep my thoughts to myself...

: My births were quick and my babies were small, so I feel I can't compare my experience to others.