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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
NOT in America!<br><br>
Pregnancy choice should not be the defining issue for a vote................for many, many reasons. MOSTLY, bcuz it will never be declared illegal to have IVF.<br><br>
Don't you understand?<br><br>
This culture based on capitalism is only concerned with marching forward to ever more money-making ventures. Particularly medical ones.<br><br><br><br>
There are many parents here at MDC who have beautiful families bcuz of IVF. Are you pro-lifers going to tell them what they did was illegal and those children should never have been conceived?<br><br>
That IS what would happen if abortion became illegal.<br><br><br>
Do you honestly believe you will ever turn back the tide of medical *progress*?<br><br>
You're being led around by the nose, imo. Politicos care far more about the $$$$$$ from Pharmas and Ins Co's than they care about your views.<br><br>
But, many of them wouldn't being above lying to you (about overturning abortion) in order to keep the rope thru the ring in the nose.....................<br><br><br>
I thought this was interesting:<br><br><a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_inco.htm" target="_blank">ARE PRO-LIFERS IGNORING THE REAL PROBLEMS?</a><br><br><br><br>
FTR. I am strongly pro-choice. I don't believe IVF is wrong and I am not trying to hurt anyone. I am trying to bring honest debate into this issue and I consistently get no response......................<br><br>
That makes me think, quite possibly, most of the pro-lifers have a hypocritical stance on this.<br><br>
Are you willing to do this to infertile ppl?<br><br>
What say you to your infertile friends?
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bow.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="bow"><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bow2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="bow2"><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Els' 3 Ones</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Pregnancy choice should not be the defining issue for a vote</div>
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I couldn’t agree more! I am naive, I guess, but I’m shocked that anyone would vote *just* on that one issue. It seems quite irresponsible to me, actually - especially if you’re voting “for life” AND voting for a candidate that is for the death penalty and waging war, among other things.<br><br>
And, I agree wholeheartedly about the IVF issue. I must say that issue is somewhat new to me but it makes total sense that it would get tied to the abortion issue. I also don’t entirely understand why the pro-life movement doesn’t go after IUDs as well. If there is a true belief that life begins with conception.<br><br>
I hope what you say is true – that abortion will never be made illegal in the US. I am in favor of some restrictions on abortions (all of which are currently in place as far as I know of) but I would never, ever want to see the day when all abortions are illegal.<br><br>
I would like to see more programs to help prevent unwanted pregnancies or abortions but that is a separate issue for me because I would always like to see access to safe abortions to women who decide to have one.
 

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SQ, IVF typically involves multiple embryos (called "babies" in many prolife circles) which are "reduced" to make the desired number of fetuses, either before implantation into the uterus or after (when the number of successful implantations is higher thant he optimal number in terms of survival rate). You may want to do a search in activism ~ this topic has been brought up several times by El as well as others, also in conservations in which you either participated or expressed agreement with other participants.
 

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Rock On, mama. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up">s<br><br>
Maya<br>
NARAL member since age 12
 

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The number of fetus don't have to be reduced and dr will and do only transfer the number of fetus that the woman is willing to carry. The frozen embryo can be donated to women who are unable to produce eggs. IVF can be done without any destroying of embryos.
 

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I'm not misinformed, I've got twins from IVF. We only transfered what I was willing to carry. A embryo dying in the thawing process isn't the same as being scraped out of a uterus.
 

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But it's just as dead.<br><br>
Joyce in the mts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sleeping queen</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">A embryo dying in the thawing process isn't the same as being scraped out of a uterus.</div>
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Why not?<br><br><br>
Whether or not you think it is different..........the gov't would be forced to see it is not. Can't take away one right w/o losing the other. Don't you see that?
 

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A close friend who had recently had her third IVF, and is pro-life, had to choose to <b>partially</b> terminate due to the amount of successful implantations ~ which endangered her health as well as the embryos.<br><br>
Suffice to say, it was difficult, though her POV has changed, she is still pro-life.<br>
It was still her CHOICE, though.<br><br>
My twins were not assisted by any technology, so I cannot say anything about such matters with knowledge..<br>
So I thank you for the link! It will be well forwarded.<br><br>
Maya
 

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Wow, call me a bonehead prochoice hick. I'd never even considered the ramifications of IVF and its relation to abortion.<br><br>
I don't get it either, now that its been explained. How is it consistent to allow a procedure, even have it yourself, that results in the deaths of multiple fertilized eggs, embryos, and yet want to make it illegal for someone else to have a procedure that results in the death of one fertilized egg, an embryo.<br><br>
Huh, i'm really floored by this. Mass abortion going on everyday. Or is it not abortion if the fertilized egg is in a petri dish? I'm really confused by this. Oh wait, I get it. The woman undergoing IVF didn't have sex so doesn't need to be punished! I get it!
 

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This is no differernt than the difference between manslaughter and homocide. It is the intent. No one plans for the thawing embryo to die. They are hoping to give it life. Abortion is a premeditated intent to kill.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The woman undergoing IVF didn't have sex so doesn't need to be punished! I get it!</td>
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Excellent point.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">A embryo dying in the thawing process isn't the same as being scraped out of a uterus.</td>
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Dead is dead is dead. Both ways, thawing and "scraping" involve <i>choice.</i> And money of course.
 

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Death while thawing- neglect? Couldn't someone be charged with neglect leading to death?<br><br>
Wow...it boggles the mind, the possible implications.<br><br>
Joyce in the mts.<br><br>
edited for spellitudinousness
 

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Oh, I disagree completely with the basic premise. Those who seek to make abortion unsafe and illegal will just tinker with the legal definitions. They will word the laws so that only embryos that have been transferred will "count" toward putting women and doctors in jail. Excess embryos are still fair game, because in truth, most of these people don't lose a lot of sleep over this issue.<br><br>
IVF will still be done. However, it will just be even more unavailable for people who aren't wealthy or well-insured. You can just limit the transfer to a few embryos and not give women the choice of doing a reduction. Of course, the odds will go down for women getting pg. If they have the money, you can just put them through more gruelling and expensive cycles, continuing to pump their bodies full of artificial hormones for longer than necessary. After all, they are only women. If they don't have the money to keep paying for cycles, too bad, so sad. Fertility medicine will continue to be an incredible cash cow. (Having been a patient, I've seen it at work.) If the doctors are getting fewer patients, they'll just raise their fees.<br><br>
If you look at medicine as a whole, doctors make a hell of a lot more money off hospital births and the resulting medical care of a person during a lifetime (particularly if we can force them to do as much intervention as possible throughout that lifetime) than they ever make off doing abortions. So, it wouldn't hurt the medical profession in general to outlaw abortion--just women.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sleeping queen</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I'm not misinformed, I've got twins from IVF. We only transfered what I was willing to carry. A embryo dying in the thawing process isn't the same as being scraped out of a uterus.</div>
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Why not? Medical intervention caused both, no? I;m sitting here trying to think of a way around this one... but on legal terms I'm unsure how that could be done.<br><br>
Honestly, I didn't know all this. I always wondered how people could vote on this one issue when no president ever addresses it all. Bush hasn't addressed it in his 4 years why would he in the future?<br><br>
Interesting to contemplate.
 

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Last thing I heard, both homicide and manslaughter were illegal.<br><br>
Or could it be that it's easier to be prolife when it's someone else's body?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
EFmom, I can see, while rereading my post, that I did not define my link between the <i>fertility</i> industry and the politicos. I realize abortion is not the money maker, but fertility is. That tide will not be turned.<br><br>
Do you not agree that the privacy ruling could be brought into the fertility clinic? NOT in their favor?<br><br>
How on earth would an abortion and a selective reduction ever be differentiated?<br><br>
How would the morning after pill and "thawing" ever be differentiated?<br><br><br>
I just can't see how the line would not be complete from the one to the other.........thus, I think the one will never become illegal again.
 
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