[Vito's Mommy]

A long time friend and her family, dh, dd who is almost 3 and ds who is 5 mo, came for a visit on the way to her Mother's. They have changed their lives a lot since we saw each other last. They have devoted their lives to God. Ok, good for them I guess. This is NOT a religious post, I'm just giving the scenario of what I'm about to tell you all. Her dh has attended street preaching school and is what she calls the "Spiritual Leader of their family." They go to church 3 x a week and that is the only interaction her child has w/other kids, give or take a park outting once in a while. They listen to nothing but Christian music/talk radio. I absorbed all this and although I don't believe in organized religion, if they're happy and not doing any harm, so be it. After a fun bbq and visiting, my friend and I spent a little time talking in my room. We got on the subject of dicsipline. I mentioned that we don't spank. I did once and never will do it again. She told me this: "We don't hit dd, but we do spank. Now, we don't just grab her and repeatedly spank her like most people do. She doesn't get dicsiplined for being tired and grouchy or b/c she's ill and fussy. We dicsipline when she is deliberately defiant toward us. We have a system. First we take her into her room and we let her know that she is going to be punished. She is bent over and spanked bare bottom 2 times w/a paddle. Then we pray and we hug. Sometimes we sing. It's a very HUMBLING experience. We don't spank real hard just enough to make dd feel...(friend puts her hand over her heart and looks disappointed) disappointed that she was defiant. It seems to work well, as she has only been spanked 3 times."
I had absolutely nothing to say. It's like I don't know her anymore. Where does one come up w/the idea that it's HUMBLING for a child and the parents to spank, w/a paddle no less?! I know in my gut that it's mostly her husband. He is such a different person than what I knew. It's like he's possessed, seriously. Not the free spirited-hoop shootin-comical-graphic design genius I once knew. I don't want to be a part of their way of life. I feel their "beliefs" are deciding how they are to dicsipline their children. I don't agree w/it. It's sad mostly b/c her and I were so close and went thru "it all" together as teens & as young adults. I don't like the thought of not ever seeing them again. Guess we should just stick to talking about...? I really don't know.

 

[LoveBeads]

I have to congratulate you for not throwing up on this woman because I think that is exactly what I would have done.

I'm so sorry....

 

[Finch]

uke Oh no. It sounds like they've been infected with the Dobson virus. Sigh.

I don't know if you're familiar with James Dobson, he's the leader of "Focus on the Family," an organization of which you might have heard. They're very much pro corporal punishment with children, and are very Ezzo like in their control-based parenting methods.

A well-meaning coworker gave me a Dobson parenting book for my baby shower. I decided it was only good for lining bird cages when I came upon the chapter entitled "Loving Discipline" and an entry in that chapter entitled "Grab the Reins Early." A quote from that entry:

Quote:

A pediatrician received a telephone call from the anxious mother of a six-month-old baby. "I think he has a fever," she said nervously. "Well," the doctor replied, "did you take his temperature?" "No," she said. "He won't let me insert the thermometer." Isn't it amazing that a child, who only a few months ago was helpless and dependent, is capable of defying the big adults who would try to control him? The truth is, we human beings are born with a rebellious nature. Babies are not innately "good," as some believe.

It goes on to quote scripture to back up this utter nonsense. Babies are evil little manipulators, according to this man. uke

There is another passage that goes on about spanking and how only prudent, good Christian parents spank, blah blah blah, how it's the "Godly" way to parent and all that...it's truly nauseating.

Anyway, it sounds like this is the tripe your friend has been fed and I honestly don't know what to tell you. When people are that deep in it (by "it," I mean the whole fundamental evangelical beat-your-kids parenting method), it's hard to pull them back. Almost impossible. I am a Christian, and I think Mr. Dobson is pure evil, quite frankly. Not just misguided. He and Ezzo go hand in hand in my book. Yuck. I know lots of people, unfortunately, who believe in the twisted interpretation of the "spare the rod, spoil the child" Bible verse, and it's hard to untwist that mentality once it sets in. It really is. I have no advice to offer you, only sympathy.

I'm very sorry for you and your friend, and even moreso for her children.

 

[Plummeting]

It may very well be that you have nothing in common but the past at this point. I have found that to be the case with some of my old friends and we've drifted apart over time. Thankfully, it happened naturally and there was nothing I had to "do" to end the friendship, kwim? I don't think it's judgmental at all to stop seeing a friend that you can't really tolerate anymore. People change, grow up, drift apart, etc. I probably wouldn't be able to relate to them anymore, depending on how much time they spend talking about their religion. If I were to continue spending time with them, I would institute a "No spanking is allowed in our home" rule, so that at least your child wouldn't have to be exposed to it.

 

[Piglet68]

ITA with Richelle.

Unfortunately, even the closeness of the years you've spent together will likely not be enough to overcome the power of their newfound zealotry. I don't know what it is about fundamentalists of any religion but their newfound faith seems to come in exchange for most of their grey matter.

 

[Danielsmom]

I sympathize with your distress! I would be totally nonplussed if a friend came in and told me that line of crap. I read comments like your friends on the babycenter website once; I was just idly scanning a poll on do you discipline your kids with spanking? I was shocked, shocked at the number of people who still hit their kids. And there were many who did the paddle on the bare bottom routine. Huh?

I have to say I think that other things are just as bad as spanking (sarcastic comments, calling kids names) but I still think hitting is pretty bad. He does sound like he is brainwashed.

About hitting: I've had to reprogram myself--my first impulse when ds is acting up was to think about slapping his hand--that's how I was raised-- but I don't because I think it's wrong, for many reasons.

The prayer and group hug afterward sound pretty weird.

I don't have any advice, just sympathy for you.

 

[PuppyFluffer]

My first thought after reading this thread: This sounds sort of like a woman who has a physically abusive boyfriend/husband who beats on her then aplogizes and tries to make up for his abuse. Spanking your child then hugging and praying about the situation is twisted in my opinion.

I would have to sever ties with a friend who thought this was ok, let alone who actually did this. I can imagine it can be hard to do (I've never had to do it) but by accepting people in my life who conduct themselves in ways I completely disagree with seems like a passive approval and I, personally, cannot support that. The selection of my own company speaks a lesson to my child.

 

[Vito's Mommy]

I was so afraid to post my thoughts at first, for fear of it turning into a religious scandal. But, I'm so glad I did. Thank you for all your replies. I've been so upset today about it all and can barely think straight. Not to mention I had a few too many glasses of wine last night just to wash it all down. The thought of no longer having her in my life is really hard to grasp. 22 years of friendship and her kids are so beautiful!....but looking back, her dh kinda gave me the heebee-geebee's and I don't care to hang around him w/the odd look he had in his eyes. Hind sight: It's almost like she was trying to convince me that her belief in God is real and it seems as though it may not have been her speaking. Does this make sense? And then she also told me that they don't like to be refrred to as "religious" people. Could someone explain this to me? I just want to try and understand. I'm pretty bummed out. Thanks again.

 

[canadiyank]

That would be really hard to see. Many, many, many, many, many Christians believe that they need to physically discipline their children in order to be "Godly." I would say most believe that or some variation. I am one of two families at my church who do not physically discipline and have actually received a letter from a lady at our church saying I was being unbiblical. Nice. Anyhoo, I digress.

I agree with a PP about the Dobson-esque style...he is big about the hugging afterwards, etc. I was raised Dobson-style and I *hated* getting hugged afterwards. I was confused, hurt, and angry, and did not want to hug my parent...I wanted to go cry in my bed and swear that I would be perfect so I wouldn't make them mad. Nice way to set your child up from perfectionsism and OCD probs like me.

But this thread isn't about *me* is it?

I do feel for you...there's some friends I have who have changed so much and it hurts. Or they haven't changed and I have, lol. She may honestly not know that there's other ways to discipline her children as Dobson et al are promoted so heavily in churches. If she ever gives any indication of interest, tell her there's an AP and gentle discipline site for Christian mothers at www.gentlechristianmothers.com There's also articles at www.aolff.org and www.gentlemothering.com that may be of interest to her. Dr. Sears also has a Christian parenting book that refutes Ezzo and Dobson w/o naming names, but using their "key" things they promote, such as schedules and babies being manipulative. I feel sad that we Christians as a community preach about the grace of God and the forgiveness he works in our lives yet cannot extend that to our children.

 

[Shylah]

The Dobson book reminded me of "To Train Up a Child", which I'm sure you've all heard about. It talks of pulling a nursing infant's hair and spanking children until you break their spirits.

I've read the reviews of it on Amazon, and the supporters consistently spout how well-behaved their children are. One even said that they're perfect "little adults". What makes me so sick about this is that their children probably ARE very well-behaved - but it's out of fear rather than because they're taught the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviors. These are the children who flinch when an adult walks quickly by and cover their faces when someone raises their voice. It's disgusting.

I agree with the others here - you and your friend may have reached a point in your lives when you simply no longer have anything in common. You can still love her and enjoy the previous memories of her without compromising your own beliefs to such an extent that you engage in conversation with her about their newfound parenting style.

That said, I'm so sorry you have to even deal with this. It's hard realizing that you've taken a very different path in life than someone you care about.

(Edited to correct all my midnight typos)

 

[Finch]

I found something for you on that nospank site that might be helpful to you if you think she can be reached, or if you ever need to argue your point with someone who insists spanking is "God's way."

http://www.nospank.net/cox.htm

 

[Finch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiyank That would be really hard to see. Many, many, many, many, many Christians believe that they need to physically discipline their children in order to be "Godly." I would say most believe that or some variation. I am one of two families at my church who do not physically discipline and have actually received a letter from a lady at our church saying I was being unbiblical. Nice. Anyhoo, I digress. I agree with a PP about the Dobson-esque style...he is big about the hugging afterwards, etc. I was raised Dobson-style and I *hated* getting hugged afterwards. I was confused, hurt, and angry, and did not want to hug my parent...I wanted to go cry in my bed and swear that I would be perfect so I wouldn't make them mad. Nice way to set your child up from perfectionsism and OCD probs like me. But this thread isn't about *me* is it? I do feel for you...there's some friends I have who have changed so much and it hurts. Or they haven't changed and I have, lol. She may honestly not know that there's other ways to discipline her children as Dobson et al are promoted so heavily in churches. If she ever gives any indication of interest, tell her there's an AP and gentle discipline site for Christian mothers at www.gentlechristianmothers.com There's also articles at www.aolff.org and www.gentlemothering.com that may be of interest to her. Dr. Sears also has a Christian parenting book that refutes Ezzo and Dobson w/o naming names, but using their "key" things they promote, such as schedules and babies being manipulative. I feel sad that we Christians as a community preach about the grace of God and the forgiveness he works in our lives yet cannot extend that to our children.

Wow, you poor thing.

What an awful thing to experience, but it's helpful here to read your perspective, as the child of such parenting. Thanks for giving those links, I just may copy them down to keep in my diaper bag if I ever feel the need to give them out.

 

[Vito's Mommy]

Thanks for all your insight, links and personal stories. I left her an email simply saying that it was nice to see her and her family. I think she may have seen *some sort of response* on my face while telling me her dicsipline routine and I want to leave the door open in the event a conversation is statred. Then I can express my feelings, share the links and see where it takes us.

 

[Piglet68]

I think it's worth 22 years of friendship to try to start a respectful dialog about this. Maybe you could bring it up somehow....I dunno. I feel for you. My heart would be aching. I think it's definitely worth giving it a try, but I agree with PuppyFluffer that my suspicion is this comes through the husband (I'm guessing she's into the "wives obey your husband" stuff, too) and maybe she is swallowing it all b/c she is afraid not to.

 

[canadiyank]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finch Wow, you poor thing. What an awful thing to experience, but it's helpful here to read your perspective, as the child of such parenting. Thanks for giving those links, I just may copy them down to keep in my diaper bag if I ever feel the need to give them out.

Thanks, Finch. I hope someone finds them useful! I honestly believe my parents were doing the best they could and were a *vast* improvement on how they were parented, but I truly believe Dobson creates great confusion in the child and a desire to be perfect...not "unconditional" love by any means...

Also, the OP, you had a question about why she didn't want to be known as "religious." A couple reasons...religious-ness is often seen as a negative thing and she's likely trying to distance herself from that image; it's also seen as rote or ritualistic and she sees that as different from the "relationship with Jesus" spirituality..."religion" is seen as following a lot of rules, etc., which, ironically, is what she's doing in her parenting...I hope that clarified a little.

 

[PancakeGoddess]

humiliated is not the same thing as humbling.

humility comes voluntarily through maturity. humiliation comes at the hands of someone with more power.

this stuff makes my skin crawl. sorry you had to go through it, OP mama.

 

[tinaq]

Quote:

I feel sad that we Christians as a community preach about the grace of God and the forgiveness he works in our lives yet cannot extend that to our children.

ITA.

Vito's Mommy

 

[maya44]

I just don't understand the idea that being defiant is a sign of "evil"

I am alot stricter than some parents here, in that I do make the rules in my home and I don't do a tremendous amount of negotiating about them.

But I don't think my children are evil or bad because they defy me.

I am NOT going to punish a child because they defy me. I do make it clear what I expect and I will express that I don't like it when they fail to meet these expectations, but why does anyone feel they have to inflict pain on a child to get this message across?

It is not necessary and it is simply WRONG.

 

[binxsmom]

i read an interesting take on the scripture, "spare the rod, spoil the child." it may have been dr. sears, not sure though. anyway, in biblical times a shepherd guarded and tended to his flock just as we tend to our children. the rod/staff was not used to beat the valued sheep but to guide and direct them.

i am a christian. i do try to practice gentle discipline. i've had the spanking conversations with several of my friends and family members. i'm pretty outspoken and they know where i stand on this issue. if i'm talking with another christian, sometimes i'll say, "if jesus had children, do you think he would have spanked?" (during a visit with mil's pro-death penalty pastor, i asked a similiar question in regard to the death penalty. he didn't say much after that. but that's another thread.

)

i'm not sure if you want to deal with your friend on this level but just thought i'd share.