[emmy526]

<p><a href="http://www.aafp.org/news-now/health-of-the-public/20130624acipmeeting.html" target="_blank">http://www.aafp.org/news-now/health-of-the-public/20130624acipmeeting.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">
<div><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:'nimbus-sans', Arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;">"The estimated range is 0.7 to 5.4 extra cases per 100,000 children who receive the rotavirus series," Loehr told </span><i style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:'nimbus-sans', Arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;">AAFP News Now</i><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:'nimbus-sans', Arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;">. "However, the vaccines have markedly decreased the number of hospitalizations and deaths from rotavirus.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<p>So, in other words, yes, some babies are hurt by this vaccine but so what? We (supposedly)prevented hospitalizations using this drug.  </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">
<div>ACIP member and family physician Doug Campos-Outcalt, M.D., M.P.A., of Phoenix, said <strong>physicians simply need to be alert for signs of intussusception.</strong></div>
</div>
</div>
<p>Will that mean denial of adverse reactions?   as in, "oh the baby just has gas"</p>

 

[teacozy]

<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17445105" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>emmy526</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17445105"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://www.aafp.org/news-now/health-of-the-public/20130624acipmeeting.html" target="_blank">http://www.aafp.org/news-now/health-of-the-public/20130624acipmeeting.html</a><br><br><br>
So, in other words, yes, some babies are hurt by this vaccine but so what? We (supposedly)prevented hospitalizations using this drug.  <br><br><br>
Will that mean denial of adverse reactions?   as in, "oh the baby just has gas"</div>
</div>
<br>
From the article<br><br>
"The estimates suggest that the vaccine prevents around 100 deaths, 1,000 hospitalizations and 10,000 ER visits for every one excess death, hospitalization or ER visit it might cause" based on the heightened intussusception risk, said Loehr. "Given this risk-benefit ratio, the CDC still strongly recommends using the vaccine in the U.S."<br><br>
"The data that have been presented indicate that there is a low, but real, increased risk of intussusception from rotavirus vaccines within the first six days after receiving it," Campos-Outcalt said. "That risk does not appear to be particularly high, and so that is why researchers are going to spend a lot of time and effort in the next few months trying to get a more exact estimation of that (risk)."<br><br>
That doesn't sound like someone who is denial of an adverse reaction to me...<br><br>
In fact it shows just the opposite. Doctors/scientists DO closely monitor vaccine reactions and report them when they find them, even if the risk is small.<br><br>
In any case, the benefits clearly outweigh the risks unless you thinks its acceptable for 100 children to die from rota virus to prevent one from dying from a reaction to the vaccine?

 

[kathymuggle]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>teacozy</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17445112"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
From the article<br><br>
"The estimates suggest that the vaccine prevents around 100 deaths, 1,000 hospitalizations and 10,000 ER visits for every one excess death, hospitalization or ER visit it might cause" based on the heightened intussusception risk, said Loehr. "Given this risk-benefit ratio, the CDC still strongly recommends using the vaccine in the U.S."<br>
 </div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div style="margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;width:auto;">
<div style="margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:5px;margin-top:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:5px;padding-right:5px;padding-top:0px;">
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;">The main issue with this is that the risk of intussusception is probably equal with every vaccine (although it seems in general intussusception is more common in males - I wonder if that holds with vaccine induced intussuscption as well?)).</p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;"> </p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;">Rotavirus is not an equal opportunity disease.  Rotavirus is more likely to happen early in life (and when the risk of dehydration is more likely) when babies are in daycare and/or not breastfed.  </p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;"> </p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;">Anecdote alert:  I have 3 kids.  I assume they all have had rotavirus, as most kids did pre-vaccine era.    It was so mild I did not even notice it.  </p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;">  </p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;color:rgb(102,102,102);font-size:.86em;line-height:13px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;"><span style="font-size:12px;"><span style="color:#000000;">Edited to add:  found this link, which points out the risk factors for Rotavirus hospitalisation:</span></span></p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;color:rgb(102,102,102);font-size:.86em;line-height:13px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;"> </p>
<p style="border-bottom-style:none;clear:left;color:rgb(102,102,102);font-size:.86em;line-height:13px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-top:5px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;text-align:left;"><span style="font-size:12px;"><span style="color:#000000;"><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17133157" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17133157</a></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>

 

[sciencemum]

And my healthy breast fed 10 month old ended up in hospital on IV fluids (also pre vaccine era). It was scary.

 

[Mirzam]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>prosciencemum</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration/0_50#post_17446147"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
And my healthy breast fed 10 month old ended up in hospital on IV fluids (also pre vaccine era). It was scary.</div>
</div>
<p>And my healthy breast fed 9 month old didn't. She was sick for a couple of days. It wasn't scary. </p>

 

[Taximom5]

<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446147" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>prosciencemum</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446147"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br>
And my healthy breast fed 10 month old ended up in hospital on IV fluids (also pre vaccine era). It was scary.</div>
</div>
<br>
So you want to see someone else's baby die from the invasive procedure (vaccination) that might have protected your baby?

 

[kathymuggle]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>teacozy</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17445112"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br><br>
"The estimates suggest that the vaccine prevents around 100 deaths, 1,000 hospitalizations and 10,000 ER visits for every one excess death, hospitalization or ER visit it might cause" based on the heightened intussusception risk, said Loehr. "Given this risk-benefit ratio, the CDC still strongly recommends using the vaccine in the U.S."<br>
 </div>
</div>
<p>I would also like to point out that a hospital stay for rota probably includes IV fluids and not much else. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>A hospital stay for intussusception may very well involve surgery:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://kidshealth.org/parent/system/surgical/intussusception.html#" target="_blank">http://kidshealth.org/parent/system/surgical/intussusception.html#</a></p>

 

[MamaMunchkin]

<p>Baseline estimates of diarrhea-associated mortality among United States children before rotavirus vaccine introduction.<br>
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21691244" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21691244</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>From the above - under Results:</p>
<p>... Black children died at almost 4 times the rate of white children. ...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Does anyone have any links/resources to explain this?</p>

 

[ParadigmShift]

Even a single case connected to such serious injury is not acceptable for me to in order to prevent a "possible" complication arising from rotavirus. There is that one child and the family whose life will never be the same again and it could be mine.

 

[pers]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ParadigmShift</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446592"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Even a single case connected to such serious injury is not acceptable for me to in order to prevent a "possible" complication arising from rotavirus. There is that one child and the family whose life will never be the same again and it could be mine.</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>So... we top vaccinating.  That one child who would have died is just fine, and their family is happy, never knowing what would have happened to them.  But how do the families of the 100 kid who now die of rota virus that could have been prevented by the vaccine feel?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's a horrible thing to decide one vs. many even in the case where you have no idea who that one may be.  A perfectly safe vaccine would be the ideal solution and then we could save all the lives while harming no one, but unfortunately that just isn't possible at this time.  Does that mean it is just okay to stand by and let all those preventable deaths occur. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Imagine two huge rooms each filled to the brim with an equal number of people.  In room A, 1 person will die.  In room B, 100 people will die. Which room would you feel safer standing in?  </p>

 

[ParadigmShift]

With all due respect, if it was your child that was the "single" case of injury, would you still stand by your statements? If you do, then we do have different set of ethics and its not really debateable. This is all assuming efficacy of this particular vax is near perfect and herd immunity theory is totally valid and true of course.

 

[ParadigmShift]

Just as an added note here..in my set of ethics, I do not rely on other peoples sacrifice to keep me or my family healthy.

 

[kathymuggle]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>emmy526</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17445105"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
 
<p><a href="http://www.aafp.org/news-now/health-of-the-public/20130624acipmeeting.html" target="_blank">http://www.aafp.org/news-now/health-of-the-public/20130624acipmeeting.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102);">"The estimated range is 0.7 to 5.4 extra cases per 100,000 children who receive the rotavirus series," Loehr told </span><em style="color:rgb(102,102,102);">AAFP News Now</em><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102);">. "However, the vaccines have markedly decreased the number of hospitalizations and deaths from rotavirus</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>teacozy</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17445112"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
From the article<br><br>
"The estimates suggest that the vaccine prevents around 100 deaths, 1,000 hospitalizations and 10,000 ER visits for every one excess death, hospitalization or ER visit it might cause" based on the heightened intussusception risk, said Loehr. "Given this risk-benefit ratio, the CDC still strongly recommends using the vaccine in the U.S."<br>
 </div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>pers</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446638"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
 
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Imagine two huge rooms each filled to the brim with an equal number of people.  In room A, 1 person will die.  In room B, 100 people will die. Which room would you feel safer standing in?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p>But is it really 1 versus a 100 for your child?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>First off, the range emmy quote for intussusception is huge 07-5.4/100 000.  Are the figures teacozy quoted based on the 0.7, 5.4 or something in between?  If the quote is basing the risk of intussusception on 0.7, the risk may very well be a lot higher if 5.4/100 000 is closer to the truth.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Secondly, we know quite a bit about who is at risk for dehydration and hosptialisation from Rota.</p>
<p>-low birth rate/prematurity</p>
<p>-not breastfed</p>
<p>-in daycare at a young age</p>
<p>-African American</p>
<p>-younger mothers and those from a lower socio-economic background</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Now, of course, people can have a severe case of Rota even if they do not belong to a high risk group.  It would be interesting to know what percentage of severe rota  are found in those with risk factors and those without.</p>

 

[pers]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ParadigmShift</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446645"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
With all due respect, if it was your child that was the "single" case of injury, would you still stand by your statements? If you do, then we do have different set of ethics and its not really debateable. This is all assuming efficacy of this particular vax is near perfect and herd immunity theory is totally valid and true of course.</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>If you're child was one of the rare cases of death from rotavirus, would still stand by yours?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Of course I'd wish I could go back and do it differently if my child was the one, just as if I'd wished I hadn't gone for a drive to the mall with my kids if it resulted in us being in an accident where I lost one, etc, etc.  I'd still know though that even though it ended badly, I had made the best/safest choice for my kids with the information I had at the time.  </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know someone who was crossing an intersection when another driver ran the red light and t-boned him right on the driver's side door.  He was thrown into the passenger side and miraculously escaped with relatively minor injuries. From the amount of damage done around the driver's seat, he believes (and I think he's probably right) that he would have  been killed if his seatbelt had trapped him in it, but he wasn't, so he survived.  There are no guarantees in life, only relative risk, and I still wear my seatbelt and make my kids wear theirs even knowing doing so could kill us if we were even in a situation like he was (and you can bet I'd regret seatbelt use if it were to happen) because wearing a seatbelt is safer than not.   </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Herd immunity is a bonus. My primary reason for vaccinating my kid is for their own protection though, not the protection of others.  I want them standing in the room where one person dies, not a hundred.   </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kathymuggle</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446882"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
 
<p>But is it really 1 versus a 100 for your child?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>First off, the range emmy quote for intussusception is huge 07-5.4/100 000.  Are the figures teacozy quoted based on the 0.7, 5.4 or something in between?  If the quote is basing the risk of intussusception on 0.7, the risk may very well be a lot higher if 5.4/100 000 is closer to the truth.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Secondly, we know quite a bit about who is at risk for dehydration and hosptialisation from Rota.</p>
<p>-low birth rate/prematurity</p>
<p>-not breastfed</p>
<p>-in daycare at a young age</p>
<p>-African American</p>
<p>-younger mothers and those from a lower socio-economic background</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Now, of course, people can have a severe case of Rota even if they do not belong to a high risk group.  It would be interesting to know what percentage of severe rota  are found in those with risk factors and those without.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>No, I don't.  Perhaps it is only  1 vs 50 or 1 vs 20 or even 1 vs 10.  I went with the average 1 vs 100 for simplicity since there is no way to know. It would be interesting to know that, and also to know if any of these factors make intussusception fro the vaccine more likely.  Death is is an extremely unlikely result for either rotavirus vaccination or infection in any case.  </p>

 

[ParadigmShift]

For me the numbers are irrelevant. Since there are absolutely no screening for any vaxes it could be anyone who can get injured. Informed consent rarely occurs. Herd immunity is a wishful thinking at best with most adult population with non updated vax statuses. Why do some people have to be sacrificed under these conditions? This kind of reasoning is very disturbing to me for all the obvious reasons.

 

[pers]

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ParadigmShift</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17446986"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
For me the numbers are irrelevant. Since there are absolutely no screening for any vaxes it could be anyone who can get injured. Informed consent rarely occurs. Herd immunity is a wishful thinking at best with most adult population with non updated vax statuses. Why do some people have to be sacrificed under these conditions? This kind of reasoning is very disturbing to me for all the obvious reasons.</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>While the screening might not be to the level you would like, it is not correct to say that there is absolutely no screening.  </p>
<p> </p>
<p>In any case, is there screening prior to rotavirus infection?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And why is it okay to sacrifice 100 babies to death from rotavirus infection to save one from the vaccine?  </p>

 

[emmy526]

<p><a href="http://www.familypracticenews.com/index.php?id=2934&type=98&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=216018" target="_blank">http://www.familypracticenews.com/index.php?id=2934&type=98&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=216018</a></p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">
<div>'But I'm vaccinated!': Why chemoprophylaxis is needed after pertussis exposure</div>
</div>
</div>

 

[ParadigmShift]

There are lot of assumptions you make but lets say you are correct for the sake of the argument. Dont you think every parents has the right to know from their doc in form of, "One out of 100 babies will have an irreparable injury but 99 babies will be fine. You may or may not be that unlucky 1%. May I vax your child now?"<br>
If that parent says okay then by all means. They KNOW what may or may not happen. It seems most docs do not make it a habit of this now do they?<br>
It seems this is a warfront like scenario for you and that there will be casualties and it is unavoidable. Going with your train of logic...<br>
All soldiers know they may die or be injured during a battle, but does that baby and his/her parents know?

 

[Jennyanydots]

<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17447012" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>pers</strong> <a href="/community/t/1389064/acip-discusses-intussusception-risk-from-rotavirus-vaccine-limiting-tdap-administration#post_17447012"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br><br>
And why is it okay to sacrifice 100 babies to death from rotavirus infection to save one from the vaccine?  </div>
</div>
I don't think this distant third person perspective is necessarily helpful, and I think it is the source of a big issue many of us take with the vaccine program in general. No, I don't think it's ok to sacrifice anyone, by mandating or withholding vaccines- but individual families should be allowed to decide which option is right for their children. Without pressure or enforcement, and with clear information and total transparency.

 

[ParadigmShift]

<p>I really think most people fail to recognize that this is a human rights issue. When INVOLUNTARY sacrifices are made from lack of informed consent, it is in violation of basic human rights. I will never try to block willing individuals from getting vaccinated  because that is their RIGHT and their CHOICE if they choose to do so under informed consent. I am demanding for the same right to refuse those very same shots.</p>
<p>By the way, guilt trips (especially ones with dubious nature) are usually not a good way to sway convictions. Only my mother has that pat down. <img alt=":rotflmao" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/ROTFLMAO.gif" style=""></p>