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DS9 can be very argumentative, persistent and stubborn when he doesn't understand something or doesn't agree with someone.<br><br>
When I make a decision that he doesn't understand or agree with, he will argue it around and around in circles. I try my best to be patient and explain everything clearly to him. I want him to understand. The last thing I want to do is say "Because I'm the Mom and I said so". I really want him to know the logic behind my parental decisions. And so we can spend an hour where he is getting angry and argumentative and talking me in circles about one small decision I've made. After about an hour, I get tired. I tell him that I'm done discussing it. I've done everything I can to help him understand and he is unable to see beyond his own perspective. Once I tell him the conversation is going to end, he flips out. He yells and screams and cries and says the same thing over and over again. (Usually it's "MOM! MOM! MOM!" He has yelled my name over and over again for several hours while I tried my best to ignore him. I don't like doing this but I have no idea what else to do. Sometimes I will tell him "You have a choice. You can stop yelling and screaming or you can go to your room." He won't stop screaming, and so I calmly ask him to go to his room. He refuses. I ask him again, he still refuses. He's 9 and 65lbs, so it's getting harder and harder for me to physically remove him, but I often do. I try to gently pick him up or lead him towards his bedroom. Even if I get that far, as soon as I close his bedroom door he just comes back out. Still screaming.<br><br>
I don't know what to do anymore! I feel like I'm at a dead end.
 

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I've found the more I play into it, the longer the arguing lasts. It takes two for an argument. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br>
State your case, then pick a phrase and stick to it. "I understand that, we still need to ......." "I hear you, we still need to........" You've made your points, the most you can do is let him know that you still respect his opinion and are willing to listen, but the bottom line is this.
 

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OMG I COULD HAVE POSTED THIS!!!!!! I feel so much better knowing it's not just me. Holy hell what happened to my sweet 8 yr old!?!?!?<br><br>
I don't know what to do either...I swear he's turned into higher maintenance than my toddler. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/duck.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Duck">:<br><br>
Yesterday I lost it and told him to go away from me because I didn't want to hear his voice any more. Just GO! I shouted when he started to argue with even that!<br><br>
I feel like my GD is being sorely tested and I have no more ideas. I'm out of energy and out of patience. I'm seriously running on low.<br><br>
Even if I listen and then say "I appreciate your input, however I think we're going to do such and such." and then say NOTHING else, he will JUST KEEP ON GOING WHILE MY SANITY DRIPS AWAY!!!<br><br>
I try logical consequences, he either disobeys those or just couldn't care less.<br><br>
I need a break.
 

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It's cases like this where Anthony Wolf is very helpfiul!<br><br>
State your case. Once. Walk away. If neccesary make a when/then statement "<b>When</b> you have finished putting away your laundry, <b>then</b> you may play Gameboy".
 

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I think its really normal for this age, and it does get better. I understand about it being hard with their size - my son was 100 pounds at age 9, and I found it extremely intimidating when he had melt-downs like that. I had to really control my feelings of being threatened by him, and remind myself that he was only 9 years old.<br><br>
I also think an hour of debate is way too long -- I usually cut it off as soon as I'm reasonably sure that he understands my rational. "<i>Okay. I've given you my reason. I understand that you still dont' like it. I understand your reason. We need to move on now."</i> This would be, like, 3 minutes into the conversation.<br><br>
Also, rapid growth, shifting cognitive devepment, and new levels of awareness contribute to some of the emotional instability at this age. Kids are maturing physically around this age, these days. The pre-adolescent transition can be really hard to manage. Its not an excuse, but try to remember how hard it is for him to cope with his feelings right now. Make sure he is eating healthy foods (and eating a LOT, probably) and sleeping as much as possible. 10-11 hours a night, at least.
 

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I agree - it takes two to argue. Though I can certainly understand how annoying/frustrating it can be to listen to your ds yell your name endlessly!<br><br>
Do his tantrums ever work? Do you ever give in to his demands just to make him be quiet? If you havem then he has a lot of incentive ot keep at it, knowing there's a chance you will change your mind.<br><br>
If not, remind him of that fact. Then stick to your guns. I agree with the others - explain once, then leave it alone. I use statements like "I'm sorry. I understand that you are not happy about this decision, and I can see why, but this is the way it is".<br><br>
I think it's appropriate to let him blow off steam - in another room. I'm not sure what to do about him coming right back out, though.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks! Next time, I'm going to try the suggestion to let him know I am hearing and understanding what he's saying and then reiterate that I am sticking by the decision I've made.<br><br>
My DH always says the same thing, about it taking 2 people to argue. However, DH would rather end the argument in a spanking or a scare tactic and I don't agree with that.<br><br>
I guess the reason I allow the argument/conversation to continue is because he is so worked up that he can't see my reasoning and I WANT HIM TO! I want to make sense to him.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MamasBoys</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8395402"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thanks! Next time, I'm going to try the suggestion to let him know I am hearing and understanding what he's saying and then reiterate that I am sticking by the decision I've made.<br><br>
My DH always says the same thing, about it taking 2 people to argue. However, DH would rather end the argument in a spanking or a scare tactic and I don't agree with that.<br><br>
I guess the reason I allow the argument/conversation to continue is because he is so worked up that he can't see my reasoning and I WANT HIM TO! I want to make sense to him.</div>
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It will make sense to him later when he's calmed down and thought about what you said. But when he is so worked up he can't really process what you are saying. You have gotten some good advice. Don't let the discussion last more than a few minutes. You need to be consistent and not engage him when he is like this.
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">My DH always says the same thing, about it taking 2 people to argue. However, DH would rather end the argument in a spanking or a scare tactic and I don't agree with that.</td>
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Has spanking been a tool in your household all along? Has he ever been spanked?<br><br>
How the heck would it work, to start spanking a 9 year old???? I really don't get that. He'll be bigger than you in 2-3 years. Does Dh really think its smart to turn this into a physical contest? I'm sorry, but this is a dumb idea. I am vehemently against spanking for a lot of reasons, but even if I weren't -- using it on a child who will soon be an adolescent is just ASKING for a world of trouble. If your DH spanks him, he will be setting YOU up for a contest that you CAN'T win.
 

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You are trying to make your ds "understand" what you are doing. But let's fact it, he probably understands your reasoning pretty quickly.<br><br>
Why then does he go on and on for an hour? Because it is a way to engage, to deflect from the fact that he doesn't like the limit you've set or the rule you made. He isn't looking to understand.<br><br>
This is totally normal. But the longer you try to "explain" the more frantic it will make him when you cut the whole thing off.<br><br>
Please read Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Pareting" it explains this whole process in much more detail.
 

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i have no advice but your post reminded me of this article<br><a href="http://www.figarospeech.com/teach-a-kid-to-argue/" target="_blank">How to Teach a Child to Argue</a>
 

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Every child (and every day) is different. But for the most part we've managed not to go the "final statement" route very often. I would do that if I felt sure ds truly couldn't handle any discussion (if he were younger and totally screaming and falling-down-tired). Otherwise though, it really upset me to have that approach used as a child--it can feel like you are being told your words no longer matter--which is difficult to accept in the context of a family relationship, without setting in place long term patterns of communication.<br><br>
I agree with maya that almost certainly, your ds 'understands' immediately what you are saying. However he doesn't <i>agree</i>. But it is safer to go the "I don't understand!" route than openly challenging what you have told him. Probably, he has learned in the past this tactic will avoid direct anger from you over "defiance", while giving him expression of his feelings.<br><br>
With ds I tend to go right to naming the underlying feelings and it works for us. "Ds do you really not understand, or is it that you understand, but are very unhappy or angry with what I said?". If it's not typical for your son to tell you outright he is angry or unhappy with you, I would definitely add "It's okay to tell me how you feel, I'm not going to get upset or punish you".<br><br>
Somehow it seems that just having it out in the open that ds is downright mad at me diffuses the issue. VERY often I get an immediate "Yes I am VERY ANGRY with what you said mom! That is it EXACTLY".<br><br>
Once his own feelings are in the open he seems better at considering others. At this age, with a disagreement, less talk and more listening on my part works well with him. I find this kind of discussion doesn't feel draining to me when I focus on the fact that ds is usually much brighter and agreeable once he's aired all of his views on a topic. Spending time around a sullen child is exhausting personally. I'd rather just stop, find out what is really going on, and see if we can work it out. Often once I really "hear" what ds thinks about my idea's, he's willing to "hear" me for the first time--it's like he can't hear me if he believes deep down I don't know how he feels.<br><br>
Also, that kind of discussion feels very different than one where ds is being whiny and antagonistic. For us the latter turns into the former most days once I make it clear I am willing and prepared to listen to whatever ds says without getting angry. BUT, I also agree that if he refused to "get real" and kept up a semi-tantrum-ing whine (which honestly, he has almost never chosen to do), I could see myself offering a final statement and walking away at that point ie (Ds I have told you how i feel. If you want to actually talk, I will listen. I won't listen to screaming and whining). I remember doing that a dozen or so times when he was younger--usually he did calm down quickly and resumed a normal speaking voice.
 
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