[Fuamami]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Violet2</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9055516"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">We also recognize when bad behavior is our fault and we don't go around smacking our dogs 24/7. For instance, a gust of wind trapped our black lab in the bathroom for several hours while we were out and she shredded an entire roll of toilet paper. We figured, if we'd been in her 'paws' we'd probably have done the same thing and cleaned it up without a word. If we leave things out where the dogs can get to them, we count that as being our fault. Dogs are dogs and they know the rules, but can't be relied on to adhere to them 100%.</div>
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My dog has destroyed things while we were out, and then my dh always insists that he knows he did something wrong. Yeah, right.

 

[blessed]

I haven't used spanking or hitting with my dogs, except as where I described above in which I did it out of anger rather than as training.<br><br>
If I'm using intimidation to teach - which may be only necessary a handful of times early on during puppyhood to establish hierachy, and in the cases of some sensitive dogs, not at all - I stand over the pup, grab their scruff with my hand and speak with a tone of reprobation and disapproval. Eventually, just a disapproving tone in your voice will be all it takes.

 

[Fuamami]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blessed</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9055622"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If I'm using intimidation to teach - which may be only necessary a handful of times early on during puppyhood to establish hierachy, and in the cases of some sensitive dogs, not at all - I stand over the pup, grab their scruff with my hand and speak with a tone of reprobation and disapproval. Eventually, just a disapproving tone in your voice will be all it takes.</div>
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Yes, I have a dog like that too. He's part border collie, part Aussie, and he's "born to serve".<br><br>
I also have a Queensland Heeler. He's much, much different. He's constantly testing his place in the hierarchy, just to be sure.

 

[425lisamarie]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShaggyDaddy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9052899"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">had you already eaten part of the sandwich, or were you eating as you made it? If so, then this is typical pack behavior, A leader is done with the food, my turn. In either case, I think it would be important to start thinking more like an alpha on food matters. Assign them to eat, when you pour food, instruct them to eat it. If they always have food out, make it a point to take the bowl away during meal times, and replace them once the family is done eating. If they eat table scraps (which does not hurt alpha status in my opinion) make sure if they try to instigate table scraps with begging or stealing, the scraps stop for the night and they are not allowed to eat (even dog food) untill everyone else is done. These are pack behaviors that are important in setting up feeding rank. The last thing you want is some big dogs that feel like they should get to eat FIRST.<br><br>
The most important action, the one you are struggling with is what to do when it happens. In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a snap, like a warning bite). Take whatever portion of the food is left back to the kitchen. DO NOT decide that you just won't eat. It is important that you eat SOMETHING after this display so that the dog can understand that the alpha was not done eating, and that was the problem. After you are done eating your replacement snack/meal. Take the dogs to their food and tell them they can eat this. Walk away.<br><br>
Of course sometimes we have no time for this, you can easily shorten it, just keep the alpha mentallity and you can't really go wrong, because the dogs do not have any desire to question a true alpha's decision.</div>
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I am really thinking recently of getting a dog in a few years after the kids are a bit older. Will you come train them for me <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"><br><br>
The thing really keeping us from getting one is we are worried I will not be able to be the dominant person, and the dogs will run ME

 

[elizawill]

when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.

 

[kittywitty]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>elizawill</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9055957"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.</div>
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May I ask what kind of dog you have? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
Mine is a hell-raiser, I have had dogs in the past just like yours who did great like that. I don't "spank" my dog. I just use the leash correction and sometimes push on her nose downwards if she nips. But I have never had a dog like this who really does not respond at all to positive reinforcement training like they do at Petsmart. I could almost hear her laughing at the dude!

 

[lurve]

i haven't read the whole thread but i have four dogs and a seven month old. i get really angry at the dogs lately because they wake up my bad-sleeping baby A LOT!! i don't know what to do about it. sometimes i feel like i want to get physical with them. like you, they arne't getting the attention they used to get. i am realizing that how i treat my dogs will be a role model to my DD. so if i have that physical urge, i get myself away from them. unfortunately alot of times that means even less attention from me, but i don't know what else to do...i mean with four dogs it is hard to be able to correct them all! they are also all from abused situations and each of their stories made me cry, so i took them in...i am also trying to speak nicer to them..it's hard. so many hugs to you because i am so there with you!

 

[Roar]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>snowmom11</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9053136"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Is this kind of response really helpful? It seems awfully snotty to me. She obviously realized that she had made a mistake.</div>
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It was a genuine question. I wasn't sure how to interpret the tone of the post and that's why I asked because I was wondering if she was making a commitment not to hit the dogs. Obviously from this thread many people who don't hit their children think it is fine to hit dogs.<br><br>
One thing I'll add to the mix is one of the reasons why I think hitting children is a bad idea is that it models that hitting someone we love is an acceptable choice. I would be concerned if children see an adult hitting the dog that they would do the same. Especially with a dog that has a history of behavioral concerns this could be very risky.

 

[Roar]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blessed</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9052120"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite: irritated with the implied judgment and defensive that more is being made of the situation than there really is.</div>
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I question the idea that it is other people's job to motivate you not to hit your animals. That is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.

 

[blessed]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Roar</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9056283"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I question the idea that it is other people's job to motivate you not to hit your animals. That is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.</div>
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No one said anything about anyone needing to motivate me not to hit.<br><br>
I said that your response fostered feelings of resentment and defensiveness, which had a counter effect to my natural sense of remorse and to my desire to do better. Which is true. You made it more likely that I would seek to justify my actions and less likely that I would seek to modify them.<br><br>
Don't let that bother you though. Please continue.

 

[beka1977]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShaggyDaddy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9052271"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Every time you scream, or lose control to your dog, the only thing they hear is "Well, this pack needs a new leader".<br></div>
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Sometimes this is probably what my kids think too! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
Every night I threaten to turn my cats into fur muffs if they don't stop scratching everything in sight and trying to leap up onto my sleeping baby. My DH gets annoyed and says that I need to have more patience - but he spends all day with adults, and its not like the cat is trying to knead his boob while he nurses, so really, he has NO CLUE. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:

 

[Roar]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blessed</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9056338"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><br>
I said that your response fostered feelings of resentment and defensiveness, which had a counter effect to my natural sense of remorse and to my desire to do better. Which is true. You made it more likely that I would seek to justify my actions and less likely that I would seek to modify them.<br></div>
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As I posted I simply asked a direct question because I was unclear from your post if this experience had made you decide to stop hitting the dogs. It was a choice to spin that into other people are countering your motivation.

 

[kungfu_barbi]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShaggyDaddy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9052899"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">...In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a <span style="text-decoration:underline;">snap, like a warning bite</span>)...</div>
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My apologies for jumping in here, Shaggy, I am genuinely curious: Are you saying literally use human teeth on a dog? Seriously, I don't get the part about a "snap" or warning bite...<br><br>
Earlier you said something like "dogs aren't humans" and I totally agree with that. However, it is equally true that <b>humans are not dogs</b>.<br><br>
I certainly don't have all the answers...I'm just not sure that humans should attempt to discipline dogs as another dog would... It seems dangerous.<br><br>
I'm thinking there has to be a better answer, something more effective and balanced. IMO hitting is extreme and so is acting like a dog.<br><br>
With respect,<br>
Kungfu_barbi

 

[kittywitty]

I don't think SD was saying to bite your dog. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
But you just grip the dog with your hand like it's a mouth. Have you watched the Dog Whisperer? That would explain what he does.<br><br>
No, dogs aren't people and people aren't dogs, but dogs think of us as their pack, and as such, healthy pack dynamics are crucial to their well being.

 

[blessed]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Roar</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9056580"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">As I posted I simply asked a direct question because I was unclear from your post if this experience had made you decide to stop hitting the dogs. It was a choice to spin that into other people are countering your motivation.</div>
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Oh I see. Just a direct question because you weren't clear.<br><br>
My mistake then.

 

[kungfu_barbi]

Thank you for the reply. I have never seen the Dog Whisperer, so I'm not familiar with the lingo. I thought SD was being literal and I just couldn't picture it.

 

[mamitosami]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>becoming</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9052272"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I couldn't believe how much less patient I became with animals after my first child was born! I used to consider myself a "dog person," and now I'm not at all.<br><br>
Yeah, I don't think it's great for your child to see you spanking the dogs, but man, the sandwich incident would have really gotten to me, too!</div>
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Oh mannnn, you just said exactly EXACTLY how I feel... I loooooved my dog, now I reallllly dislike my dog. My poor, poor unloved dog, he is just a source of constant guilt for me now.

 

[Jude Rose]

I have to admit I agree with SD on so many points. Dogs think differently than humans. The first thing that popped in my head with the OP is, what is the behavior in wolf packs? I have a dear friend who's a wolf biologist whom I can always ask. They really do nip and snap at each other and seem to like the clarity of roles. I just don't see a flick to the haunches at an appropriate time as hitting.<br><br>
Now, as for tying this into GD, I learned an amazing lesson years ago with my DH's grandparents. We were dating and met them and their beloved Aussie Heelers for the first time. They would speak to the dogs in such soft soft voices. The dogs ears would perk up and nothing else existed but their words. If one begged too much, the scolding would be at normal speaking volume. It was so educational to see that loudness and yelling weren't necessary. That was all I knew growing up (both the dogs and me at a lesser extent)<br><br>
So I got my first cat shortly after that and tried it out. Wow. It's been great practice now as I embark into my next real challenge, calmly redirecting my children, who are probably less resilent against my mistakes. I at least have the habits in place of starting at a lower level so the escalation isn't so harsh.

 

[Violet2]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>elizawill</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9055957"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.</div>
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Some dogs are just lovely dogs, especially with the right owner.<br><br>
We have two dogs who are like night and day. Both are labs. One very intelligent one, smart enough to try and manipulate us. Her, we can use pretty much only voice commands. Initially we only wanted to use positive reinforcement in training her, but she hated the gentle leader and would rip it off. And we weren't allowed to take the happy happy obedience classes without it, so we went a more traditional route that balance both negative and positive feedback.<br><br>
Then we have a big lug without an original thought in his head. We spent seven months trying to teach him down. <i>Seven</i> months. We even made him bacon as a reward! Our other dog took an hour to learn the basics.<br><br>
I think he was a year before he understood the phrase 'let's go outside' and it was two years before he realized he could nudge a door open (and this was with us actively coaching him). We spent this past summer teaching him to swim. Yes, we had to teach a <i>lab</i> how to swim.<br><br>
He is just s-l-o-w, sort of like a blunt object but with fur. Sometimes he needs physical cues because he is just <i>so</i> not getting it. We are not being abusive or disrespectful, nor are we actually seeking to cause pain, we are trying to communicate with him and he needs this kind of input from us in order to understand what we expect. Plus, he is 100lbs of exuberance with no restraint behind it and I am 8 months pregnant. Sometimes he is a danger to me--in fact he's going to the vet tomorrow and I don't dare go by myself.<br><br>
Anyway, I could go on, but the point is every dog is different.<br><br>
Oh and once the baby comes, our big lug is going to be in his den unless there are two adults present to manage him. He's not malicious, he's very sweet, but dangerously so. Based on how long his learning curve has been in the past, we figure we'll take it slow on the baby rules.<br><br>
V

 

[griffin2004]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MadysonMom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9052214"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thats what made me realize I did not want my DD to see anyone or anthing getting hit. I dont want her to think its ok for her to hit the dogs when she gets older. I need to practice the same self control with the dogs that I do with her.</div>
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I think this is an excellent, and overlooked, point. I don't believe in striking dogs and never did so pre-kid. But now post-kid, I always try to remember that actions speak louder than words and 2 little eyes watch and learn from every single thing I do. I think it's a very confusing message for children to see an animal being physically corrected or punished and to then be told "be gentle with puppy."<br><br>
Not to say that any of this applies to your situation, Blessed. My dog definitely spends time-outs in her crate when I'm on the verge of doing something we'll both regret. Dogs are wonderful animals who can also drive you straight over the edge!