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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Wow, we didn't lose him.

Andrew's stance on circumcision as of even a few months ago rather reminds me of an R.S. teacher at school who used to run an Amnesty International club but may not any more as the Catholic Church issued a statement opposed to the group for reasons I am probably best not mentioning. He was crest-fallen and clearly hated having to choose but eventually the out-come was inevitable.

And thus when it came to calling between AIDS and circumcision, two of his hottest topics, Sullivan was clearly in agony but could only have gone one way.

Recently he was suggesting that circumcision was a valid parental choice to make and seemed to have lost his edge when it came to this issue, something that I found deeply saddening considering that he was the very man who's words on this topic had refined my viewpoint on the issue from the basic logical opposition {not your body, not your call} to a more developed and passionate form of opposition.

But not long back he once again referred to it as MGM {something that he never stopped even at his nadir} and posted with blatant horror that story of a young boy whose father wanted him cut regardless of his own wishes on the matter.

And now this:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...enital_mu.html

"Male Genital Mutilation Update

20 Jun 2007 03:15 pm

Longtime readers will know that I have long opposed the genital mutilation, aka circumcision, of male infants. New studies showing that it can be very effective against the transmission of HIV may well tip the balance of the argument. Nonetheless, it behooves us to be honest about what is being done and has been done to millions of men without their consent. They are having their capacity for sexual pleasure drastically reduced. A new study shows exactly how serious the mutilation can get:

Morris Sorrells of National Organization of Circumcision Information Resources Center and colleagues created a "penile sensitivity map" by measuring the sensitivity of 19 locations on the penises of 159 male volunteers. Of the participants, 91 were circumcised as infants and none had histories of penile or sexual dysfunction.

For circumcised penises, the most sensitive region was the circumcision scar on the underside of the penis, the researchers found. For uncircumcised penises, the areas most receptive to pressure were five regions normally removed during circumcision - all of which were more sensitive than the most sensitive part of the circumcised penis.

When your most intense sexual pleasure comes from scar tissue, something has gone wrong. My own view is that forcing boys to have most of their sexual pleasure zones destroyed without their express permission is a form of child abuse. If men want to have mutilated penises, that is their choice as adults. It shouldn't be their parents'. And mercifully, many more parents seem to be agreeing."

Just...Wow.

Such passion and such strength in his prose and such a large readership for his blog {it's easily one of the biggest} that will be seeing this.

It never rains, it pours huh?
 

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That's pretty powerfully written. I hope it gets people thinking!!!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
Even if somebody REALLY thinks it will protect them from HIV, that decision can still be made by the penis owner when they decide to become sexually active.
This is TOTALLY the point I'm just typing out on a response to another blog (an intactivist blog entry, and one pro-circ person responding cited STDs info and a bunch of misinformation....such as "uncirc'd penises are difficult to keep clean"; "a circumcised penis is naturally clean"; "It is NOT true that the AAP does not recommend circumcision"; "Circumcision is NOT amputation"; "Circumcision is an easy and nowadays painless procedure".... you get the idea. His post is old but I felt like responding.)

Making the decision to circumcise for increased HIV protection is a choice fully available to an intact adult male. A baby born today can choose that option based on research that is relevant when he's sexually active. Who knows, maybe he's in a heterosexual relationship with an HIV-positive woman and would like to reduce the risk of transmission even more. Or maybe he decides that data from central Africa is not relevant to his situation, and his sexual habits don't warrant the "extra potential protection" afforded by surgery.

Either way, this is not something he misses out on because his parents opt to leave him intact as an infant.

I am not sure what to think of the HIV thing, but I know what to think of the article on sensitivity published in the BJU.

That information Andrew Sullivan posts is straight out of the journal abstract:

Quote:
The most sensitive location on the circumcised penis was the circumcision scar on the ventral surface. Five locations on the uncircumcised penis that are routinely removed at circumcision had lower pressure thresholds than the ventral scar of the circumcised penis.
And his prose makes that point really strongly, compellingly, persuasively.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yay!! It worked!

I sent him an email with the link and he replied:

"someone else sent it to me as well and i'm posting it
thanks"

and here is the subsequent post:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...m-and-hiv.html



If I dedicated the next month solid to spam-mailing people that study and bringing it up in bustling chat-rooms I probably couldn't get as many people to see and read it as he just did!!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Revamp View Post


If I dedicated the next month solid to spam-mailing people that study and bringing it up in bustling chat-rooms I probably couldn't get as many people to see and read it as he just did!!
WTG James!

Hopefully thousands of little boys will be saved from MGM because of this!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The offensive continues:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...by-genita.html

"Death By Genital Mutilation

21 Jun 2007 07:20 pm

An infant boy dies after a botched circumcision:

" According to the Paediatric Child Health article, the boy was "bottlefed and was reported to be doing well when he was circumsized." Five hours later, the parents returned to their family doctor with the infant, who had become "irritable and had blue discoloration" below the belly button.

Doctors noticed the discoloration and slight swelling of the penis, but sent the child home. Fourteen hours after the circumcision, according to Cairns, the child was brought to another hospital where doctors noted he was extremely irritable with marked swelling of the penis and bruising to the scrotum.

The child was then transferred to a paediatric centre, where his bladder was diagnosed, Cairns said, to "seven or eight times its normal size." The PlastiBell ring, which is used to hold back the foreskin after circumcision, was removed and drained and the child went into shock."

This happens. Whenever you subject an infant to unnecessary surgery, complications can ensue. John Colapinto's extraordinary book, "As Nature Made Him" recounts the tragic story of an infant boy whose penis was entirely destroyed by another botched genital mutilation. He was then gender-reassigned and given a vagina."

As you are probably aware I am generally opposed to shock tactics in the pursuit of the pro-intact agenda but when stuff is as shocking and well put as that I am prepared to make an exception, possibly even a re-evaluation.
 

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Great thread. I just wish he were in the United States. We need a lot more help than the UK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin View Post
Great thread. I just wish he were in the United States. We need a lot more help than the UK.
He is!

Although he was from Britain {which is, I imagine, why he is capable of seeing circumcision for what it is} and still feels tied to his mother country, both writing a weekly column in the Sunday Times and taking regular visits here, he operates out of and loves America and would become a citizen but for being HIV positive and the readership of his blog is predominantly {if not overwhelmingly} American. Which is why I am so happy that he is taking such a strong stance!

And exactly how strong just became a good deal clearer, check this out:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...d-for-lif.html {Warning: contains a crying and newly mutilated baby plus saddening testimony, not for the squeemish}

Potent stuff. Unquestionably.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Revamp View Post
Am I right in assuming that the fact that this testimony:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...of-c.html#more

was published on such a mainstream website will please all you Attachement Parent?
While I like some of what that person was saying, I vehemently disagree that circ is not a men's issue. These infant boys grow up to men and circ affects their lives as men! How is it not a men's issue?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
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Originally Posted by Papai View Post
While I like some of what that person was saying, I vehemently disagree that circ is not a men's issue. These infant boys grow up to men and circ affects their lives as men! How is it not a men's issue?
I think that the point s/he was making was that it happens to children and that is somehow considered alright whereas if it happened to a fully grown, mature man sans consent we would think that it was terrible.
 
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