[TeaBag]

So sad....

toddler dd turned two last week. We gave her a baby doll and a sling. She loves this toy, absolutely loves it...carries her everywhere....nurses her, etc. Just a joy to watch.

Ds stole her baby. Literally.

I had nursed dd to bed, tucked her in and left her to go nurse infant to sleep. Ds is in his room, waiting for his stories. After nursing both the girls, no one was going to sleep, so we all went back downstairs to play some more. Ds goes upstairs. He comes back down, I didn't think anything of it. 30 minutes later or so, I go up to nurse infant to sleep. Then I go into toddler's room and we can't find the baby. I asked her where she put baby, we can't find baby anywhere. We look all over the house, I didn't see her bring baby down, but who knows, right? So we're looking all over and ds is just sitting there, playing. I ask him if he's seen baby, he says "No." So after about 30 minutes of looking for baby, I tell toddler we'll ahve to find her in the morning, let's go have some milk. We go lay down, in the midst of nursing, she comes off crying "I want baby....where's baby?" etc. I keep comforting her, while running through in my brain where baby could be. Then ds comes in and whispers "Mommy....I want to sleep with my closet door closed tonight, I don't need the nightlight..." "Okay, honey..." still thinking of the baby. So I finish nursing toddler down and I come out to pee before going into ds' room. He comes out and says "Mommy, I don't want you to come in my room tonight. I don't need snuggles tonight." "What? Are you sure?" "Yes, I'm sure." "well, okay, honey..." Thinking, he's growing up too fast, I'm so sad....

Infant wakes up, I go in to nurse her again. While I'm in there, I start putting it all together in my head...I know, I know, I'm slow....

So afterwards, I knock on ds' door. I go in. I ask him point blank if he knows what happened to baby. He looks me right in the eye and says NO. I ask him if it's possible that dd brought baby into his room. No. I want to give him the opportunity to come clean, I don't want to just come out and accuse him of stealing her doll. I ask him again if he's SURE he hasn't seen baby. He says no again. I said "Well, we looked everywhere, do you think someone could have taken her?" "I don't think so, I didn't see any strangers in the house, did you?" Finally, I just said, "Look, I think you took your sister's doll and I think you hid her in your closet, I'm going to look in there now." and he hesitates for a second then says "well, you can look." Before I even opened the closet door he says "Oh, it must be magic that made her get in there!"

This upsets me on so many levels....he took her doll. He didn't care that she was upset and crying for her. He lied to me not once, but repeatedly and with sincere forethought. He was sneaky and manipulative and just generally, a mean brother. Now, she doesn't know what he did and I talked to him about it and there were consequences for his actions, but I'm still so sad and angry. How could my sweet little angel boy, my never-been-spanked, never-been-put-down, never-been-hit/degraded/etc, HOW< HOW, HOW could he have done something like this.....I just feel like I can't trust him at all now.

Anyone have any thoughts, experiences, that you'd like to share?

 

[Aura_Kitten]

how old is your son?

 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

How old are your children? At this point, I would be wondering *why* he did this. I don't have much experience with older children (mine is only 2.5). I'm sure you'll get some good advice here though.

I don't know if this makes a difference or makes you feel better or not, but what he did doesn't sound *that* bad to me. It is possible that he's just experimenting with the consequences and severity of taking and lying. It may also be possible that he's looking for attention and/or testing boundaries. I have great parents but I did similar things when I was a child, which I look back on as normal behavior.

Good luck.

 

[journeymom]

Yeah, what identitycrisismom said. It's shocking when you have never experienced naughty behavior in your child before. But to me, this doesn't sound unreasonable.

The only thing I would maybe have done differently is I might have cut straight to the point with ds. I wouldn't have asked him if he knows what happened to the doll, if it's possible dd brought doll in the room, or if someone else could have taken the doll. That's setting ds up to lie. At that point you pretty much knew where the doll was, so it would have been better to take the doll out of the closet and say, "It looks to me like you put little sister's doll in your closet. Can you tell me why you did this?" That way you don't even give him the opportunity to lie, and instead get straight to finding out why he did it. And don't be surprised if he still denies it and says it was "magic".

That's when you bite your tongue at the very typical little kid behavior and simply say, "Magic, huh? Maybe we'll talk more in the morning."

Good luck, apmom.

(My kids are 9 y.o. and 5 y.o.)

 

[Aura_Kitten]

... i think this really could be a developmental issue...... BUT it depends on his age.

 

[TeaBag]

He's 5.5 years, he'll be 6 in November. I thought that I should just ask him about why he took the doll, but then I really, really wanted to give him the chance to come clean himself, you know? I lied a LOT as a child, but it was because I was absolutely TERRIFIED of my father. If I got caught doing something I shouldn't be doing, I'd get a *spanking* (that almost always left bruises...), if I got caught lying about it, I'd get a spanking for that too, so it was easier (and safer) to lie and hope to get away with it. I just don't get why he felt it was necessary to lie to me....and that's what makes me feel like I can't trust him. And like dh said when I told him the story, "Well, does it really matter WHY he did it?" I don't know. Yes, there was obviously something going on with him, although when I asked him the obvious why questions, the only answer he would give me is that he likes the doll and wanted it. But in reality, I don't want this to become about him, I want him to understand that what he did was wrong and hurtful to dd, to me, to everyone in the family, not about *his* feelings, you know? It feels like if I came this about his feelings, the focus of what he did wrong is somehow less....or am I totally washed up?

 

[Dragonfly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by journeymom The only thing I would maybe have done differently is I might have cut straight to the point with ds. I wouldn't have asked him if he knows what happened to the doll, if it's possible dd brought doll in the room, or if someone else could have taken the doll. That's setting ds up to lie.

That's one of the things that's always stuck with me from "Kids Are Worth It!" It's totally contrary to what I thought would be the best way to approach a child about lying (i.e., give them an opportunity to tell you the truth of your own volition).

 

[Aura_Kitten]

at that age, i would expect a child to lie like that.

for one thing, they can't entirely separate reality from fantasy.

they also are learning that they can deceive others, and are testing it ~ just like toddlers test boundaries.

Quote:

I just don't get why he felt it was necessary to lie to me....and that's what makes me feel like I can't trust him.

it's probably not that he felt it was necessary, rather that he was simply testing. i wouldn't allow my trust in him to be broken, simply because at that age kids really don't know the difference.

if it were me, i would have a discussion about why it's not ok to steal things, why lying is not ok, and that i'm really upset that he disregarded his sister's feelings.

beyond that, i would expect a few more years of testing like this, and occasionally needing to remind + discipline him w/ regards to theft and empathy for others, as well as right v. wrong.

 

[MamaBug]

: I am sorry he did that. My ds just turned 6 and I too would be so upset and hurt if he did.

: Hang in there

 

[journeymom]

Just one more thing, 'cause I think this is such an interesting thread.

Quote:

I lied a LOT as a child, but it was because I was absolutely TERRIFIED of my father. If I got caught doing something I shouldn't be doing, I'd get a *spanking* (that almost always left bruises...), if I got caught lying about it, I'd get a spanking for that too, so it was easier (and safer) to lie and hope to get away with it. I just don't get why he felt it was necessary to lie to me...

Maybe you are projecting something on your son that isn't there. You are trying to use the most gentle discipline possible, right? Are you a nice mom, most of the time? Then you're doing a good job of stopping whatever bad parenting you received. Your son's reasons for lying are different than yours were. Like the other moms have said, he's testing you, and it's normal for this stage. Ds just turned 5 a week ago. He has recently (past 4-5 months) started telling the dumbest lies to cover his tracks. "Ds, you left your cup on the floor." "No, that's big sister's." "No, big sister is at her friend's house." "Maybe it was Daddy." "Nooo, Daddy's at work." "Maybe it was the dog!" "Oh please, ds, give it break. Just take your cup to the kitchen."

Take it easy on him, but you are absolutely right to guide him back to thinking about little sister's feelings. Maybe in future events, later in the day, after he's appologised, he could go ask her how she's feeling. Or he could draw a picture for her. Anything to get him thinking concretely about her feelings. Little sister has probably completely moved on by now regarding this event.

 

[Aura_Kitten]

Quote:

He has recently (past 4-5 months) started telling the dumbest lies to cover his tracks. "Ds, you left your cup on the floor." "No, that's big sister's." "No, big sister is at her friend's house." "Maybe it was Daddy." "Nooo, Daddy's at work." "Maybe it was the dog!" "Oh please, ds, give it break. Just take your cup to the kitchen."

sorry, but i had to :LOL at this. my son has just started doing this too... not quite as complex, but along the same lines...

me: michael, please put away __________.
him: ok
me: (two minutes later) michael, i asked you to put away ______, so please go do that now.
him: i did!
me: michael, it's right in front of you still.
him: no it's not.
me: i can see it! it's right there!
him: no it's not.

what gets me is that he sincerely doesn't understand that i see right through him.

 

[TeaBag]

Your son's reasons for lying are different than yours were.

Thank you! I needed to be reminded of that.

 

[Marsupialmom]

I think he lied to you because he knew you would be disappointed in his actions. That is far difference that fear lying.

I also think he felt more guilt than you think he did. He did not want snuggles because he felt guilty and sorry about what he did. This guilt/shame is a reason for more lies.

I think you learned something from this. You prompted the wrong questions to promote lying. Live and learn. Next time you will watch your questions. I think the other lady's covered this well.

 

[frand]

My daughter, at 4 and a half, came out of her playroom one day and excitedly closed the door behind herself. She said, "Mom, I don't want anyone to go in there because all my toys are on the floor and it's so messy I don't want anyone to see it." I thought this was funny and said, "ok" A few minutes later I forgot and went toward that room and she RAN ahead of me and blocked the door and said, "Please! I don't want you to go in there because the floor is all messy and I didn't pick up." I've never been heavy handed about order (understatement) so I suddenly realized there was something in there she didn't want me to see. So I insisted on seeing and had to peel her off the door. The first thing I saw was red all over the wall. She had written all over one wall in crayon and she knew it was wrong. From the way she started fidgeting I had the sense that she did it totally impulsively and just couldn't stop herself. And of course, once it was done, she didn't know how to undo it.

I think if I were you I would only be concerned if your son expressed anger toward the doll or had tried to hurt it. I have known many young boys who will play with baby dolls if they think no one will make fun of them. Is it possible he just wanted to see what all the fuss was about with this doll, right or wrong? What if he got his own baby and sling too?

 

[aussiemum]

Quote:

I think if I were you I would only be concerned if your son expressed anger toward the doll or had tried to hurt it. I have known many young boys who will play with baby dolls if they think no one will make fun of them. Is it possible he just wanted to see what all the fuss was about with this doll, right or wrong? What if he got his own baby and sling too?

Yes. Spot on frand, I thought maybe this was the case too, especially after reading your last post APmom.

Kids aren't always good at empathising with others, even when they are siblings & are upset. Something to work on, but I think it's pretty normal.

Has he shown any interest in the doll again?

 

[TeaBag]

Thanks Everyone! Definitely learned something from this situation. That's not to say that I'm not still hurt by his actions, but, I have learned what *not* to do if this situation repeats itself....(let's hope not, though)

To answer some of your questions.

No, he has never been made to feel wrong for playing with dolls, etc. In fact, a few years ago, I taught childbirth classes and he loved to get into my teaching materials and play with all those babies. We've never been a family to force, or even encourage, gender specific play/toys/etc. And that day that he took the doll, I had noticed that he was very interested in her, so we went and got Elmo and Pooh and made him a sling out of a crib sheet, so it wasn't like he wasn't getting to experience it. He did, at one point, pretend to nurse Elmo and dh said (non-judgemental) "Boys can't nurse, God didn't make us that way, only ladies can nurse." and he said "I know, I'm just pretending." and that was the end of it.

I really want to thank you all for your thoughtfulness and honesty in your replies. MDC makes things so much easier for me. I couldn't really tell anyone IRL about this, all I'd hear about is how much he needed to have his mouth washed out, his bottom smacked and

uke

You know? Thanks so much!!!

 

[Aura_Kitten]

Quote:

No, he has never been made to feel wrong for playing with dolls, etc. In fact, a few years ago, I taught childbirth classes and he loved to get into my teaching materials and play with all those babies.

if you knew that he liked playing with them before this incident, why didn't you get a baby doll for him as well as the toddler?

 

[TeaBag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by klothos if you knew that he liked playing with them before this incident, why didn't you get a baby doll for him as well as the toddler?

Because since I stopped teaching, those babies were all in our playroom, and he hasn't played with them in well over a year. In fact, about 4-5 months ago, the lady here who teached an infant massage class asked if she could use them for her classes, and I asked him if he had any objection to my giving them to her, since we almost never used them, and he said it was fine.

 

[frand]

APMom - since you just gave your daughter a new doll last week, and it's been a big focus of attention, I am willing to bet it rekindled his interest in dolls just because of the attention focused on it. My nephew is 2.5 years older than my daughter, and I remember when he came over at 4, 5, and 6 he loved to play dolls with her --but never anywhere else. Those dolls still reek of Weleda baby lotion ($$$) and have band aids on them from their doctoring. I really think your son just wanted to be in on what appeared to be a special new toy. I think he and your daughter might enjoy playing family together with their own dolls. That's why my nephew and daughter did for many hours at a stretch.

My daughter's now 6 and I told her your story. When I got to the part where your son said he didn't want hugs goodnight, she cut me off and said, "Was the doll in his room?" So honestly, I think what your son did is very understandable even as you want him to know he shouldn't do it again.

The interesting thing is that my daughter loved the story and asked me to tell it again and again. Then she asked me to go onto my computer today and find more stories about kids!

 

[Aura_Kitten]

Quote:

I really think your son just wanted to be in on what appeared to be a special new toy.

it sounds like that to me too.

also...

Quote:

Because since I stopped teaching, those babies were all in our playroom, and he hasn't played with them in well over a year. In fact, about 4-5 months ago, the lady here who teached an infant massage class asked if she could use them for her classes, and I asked him if he had any objection to my giving them to her, since we almost never used them, and he said it was fine.

so were they *his* or were they something used in the classes that he simply was allowed to play with? a child may have more of a connection to something that is actually theirs.

and did you ask him if he had any objection to them going away, or actually hold a discussion on how he would feel giving them away? i know that may sound like the same thing but to a kid, wording makes all the difference. he may have felt since you were giving them away anyway (or maybe he felt like they weren't his to begin with) he didn't want to say he objected... or maybe he thought you'd be getting them back.

going back through the previous post(s) i also saw this...

Quote:

We've never been a family to force, or even encourage, gender specific play/toys/etc. And that day that he took the doll, I had noticed that he was very interested in her, so we went and got Elmo and Pooh and made him a sling out of a crib sheet, so it wasn't like he wasn't getting to experience it.

and i've been giving it some more thought... if you don't encourage or enforce gender specific play, why did you daughter get a baby doll and your son had to make do with pooh + elmo? that alone seems unfair to me.

also, when i was a child (one of 6) my parents had a sort of policy that when one child was given gifts, the other younger siblings would also get either something similar or at least something special for themselves so they didn't feel so left out or jealous. i'm sure it was hard on them, but honestly it saved us all so much heartache in the long run, and i'm sure they were glad to field off any sibling rivalry before it occurred.