Mothering Forum banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,<br><br>
I know sometimes I'm a bit contentious, but if you want to know why I'm rabidly (rabid...get it?) spay and neuter, here's why:<br><br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/12/dogs.seized.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/12/dog....ap/index.html</a><br><br>
They haven't released the names yet, but they did release the kennel name, and I know the woman. She's a breeder, not a typical hoarder. She was a client at a clinic I worked at 7 years ago, and she was easily able to sell her dogs despite her refusal to allow people to meet the parents or to even see the premises. One person told me she cracked the door open and handed her money and she passed the dog out the them.<br><br>
I was at the shelter today helping to examine dogs and the situation is so unbelievable I still haven't processed what I saw. They pulled over 700 dogs, but many are pregnant, so that won't be the final count. About a month ago, a pit bull ring was broken up, so that animal control had to take in 150 pit bulls (they have to keep them for evidence for now). Now, with this, the situation is dire for rescue here.<br><br>
So, when I (or your local vet) pushes spay/neuter as soon as possible, there may be a reason why we feel so strongly about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
I am not sure why early spay/neuter has anything to do with this case. The woman was a (careless, bad) breeder--she had no interest in spaying or neutering and would have refused if it was offered to her. It's a tragic case, and why animal welfare laws exist, but I don't think it has anything to do with how early to spay or neuter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Because no one can guarantee that an accident won't happen. And it's the veterinarians that get stuck killing these animals.<br><br>
And animal welfare laws were useless in this case until things got way, way, out of control. Like I said, I knew about this woman 7 years ago. And also like I said, she never had a problem selling her dogs. Wonder why I'm not too keen on breeders?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
But these dogs were not "accidents." Every single one was deliberate, at least until the end when it seems that she was just letting things go crazy. And again, she would have refused s/n if it was offered to her.<br><br>
I definitely get that you're not too keen on breeders, but the idea that this woman represents "breeders" is ridiculous. I can guarantee you that by tomorrow the Chihuahua Club of America will have notified as many members (all of them breeders) as it can to try to help; national rescue will get involved, etc. I've witnessed several of these big purebred rescues in Danes (thank God, none in Cardigans) and in each case the national breed club was incredibly involved.<br><br>
Good breeders not only clean up their own messes, they clean up others'--including this group of dogs, undoubtedly. Good breeders are more devoted to their breed of dogs than any other group of humans on earth, and that means even the sad and poorly bred ones.<br><br>
I'm (proudly) a breeder, and so far this year I've done four rescues, none of them of my breeds. I will undoubtedly do more. One of the reasons we put a kennel room in the basement of our house was so that we could safely do rescues even of dogs with iffy temperaments. Everybody who walks in my door gets groomed, switched to a raw diet, vet checked, bathed weekly, trained, and gets to play all day until they go to a new home. During this time, I have produced exactly zero puppies; I haven't had a litter in two years and I am not planning one until this fall at the absolute earliest (Clue and Bronte have to both finish their championships and their hip checks before I can even think about breeding). What I do is SMALL POTATOES compared to what many of my friends do; they take in terribly scarred and sick dogs, or provide transport for thousands of miles, or bring in pregnant females and whelp the litters (at a personal cost of thousands of dollars). They volunteer at shelters, they groom rescues for free, they go to meet-and-greets, they walk in parades, all for rescue. And that's for dogs they have had no hand in producing.<br><br>
You should definitely get mad about bad conditions, puppy mills, females being kept only for breeding, dogs perceived as livestock, all that stuff. But getting mad at the community of good breeders is completely counterproductive--not only are we the ones who are the most dedicated to good vet care (my vet bills are *astronomical* and I have healthy dogs--but every single one gets multiple visits a year, breeding checks (hips, heart, brucella, etc.), we pay for vaginal smears and AI, checks to make sure they're healthy before training, every rescue goes in for a check, spays, neuters, etc. and on into the sunset), we are doing absolutely everything we can to minimize the number of homeless dogs out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Here's my point. You're the exception. Obviously, this woman is the exception to the other extreme.<br><br>
But most people I've met who consider themselves "breeders" have no clue what they're doing. They just put two dogs together (if we're lucky, of the same breed, but I once had a client pay $350 for what was billed as a rare poodle/terrier mix).<br><br>
I am unwilling to take the risk of one unwanted litter. One unwanted litter equals more dogs not finding homes. Even if that litter is homed, there are dogs in shelters that lose out. And if any of that litter is allowed to breed...etc.<br><br>
My first priority is always going to be the animal. I didn't go into this profession because I like people. Someone has to be the voice for these creatures, and I'm sick to death of the way animals are treated in our society.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cadydid</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10753670"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Here's my point. You're the exception. Obviously, this woman is the exception to the other extreme.<br></div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
But I'm *not* the exception. I do less than many of my friends. The community of good breeders--and there are thousands--has a self-expectation that is very, very firm: don't breed if you're going to contribute to the number of dogs in rescue in any form. And virtually everyone does rescues personally.<br><br>
And as far as knowledge, don't you find that the majority of *owners* don't have a clue as to what they're doing either? It's a miracle that dog ownership in this country goes as well as it does, with the amount of sheer stupidity that goes on. It's a testament to how extremely forgiving dogs are. So yeah, you've got a lot of dumb breeders. But they went into it dumb and without doing any research or asking any experienced breeders to help them (because any good breeder would sit them down and explain exactly why NOT to breed their dog), so they don't reflect on whether there are good breeders out there. Talking about breeders the way you do is like saying that you've never met anyone who can fly a plane, so nobody should fly planes.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
31,346 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">So, when I (or your local vet) pushes spay/neuter as soon as possible, there may be a reason why we feel so strongly about it.</td>
</tr></table></div>
<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"><br><br>
The two things have no relation to each other at all. The woman chose to do what she did. Having a vet suggest early spay and neuter wouldn't have changed the situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,037 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>thekimballs</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10753472"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I am not sure why early spay/neuter has anything to do with this case. The woman was a (careless, bad) breeder--she had no interest in spaying or neutering and would have refused if it was offered to her. It's a tragic case, and why animal welfare laws exist, but I don't think it has anything to do with how early to spay or neuter.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
There definitely has to be a hoarding disorder in there as well. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> To have that many dogs is just absolutely horrific.<br><br>
And, for someone like this, they obviously would have NOTHING to do with any city/state ordinances. Mandatory neuter/spays likely are going to be followed by law abiding citizens. Sigh.<br><br>
Poor animals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,108 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>thekimballs</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10753651"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I definitely get that you're not too keen on breeders, but the idea that this woman represents "breeders" is ridiculous.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Abso-fricken-lutely!<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cadydid</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10753464"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">So, when I (or your local vet) pushes spay/neuter as soon as possible, there may be a reason why we feel so strongly about it.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
I don't get the connection you're <i>trying</i> to make. These 800 dogs are a drop in the bucket compared the 73 MILLION pet dogs in the US. You're telling me it would be better to compromise the health of 73 million dogs to prevent 800 unwanted mutt puppies? I vehemently disagree with that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,418 Posts
I also don't get the connection. You said yourself that she was 'a breeder', meaning that she would have been exempt from any mandatory neutering that theoretically would be in place (sometime in the future).<br><br>
She intended to breed, so she would not have voluntarily neutered (as evidenced by the fact that, you know, she didn't).<br><br>
Are you saying that every single dog should be neutered just in case the owner is mentally ill or stupendously irresponsible?<br><br>
I would take offense to that, were it directed toward me personally.<br><br>
I, for instance, have a proven track record of keeping dogs from roaming or otherwise having the opportunity to breed, despite not having a fence (last dog under unerring vocal control as well as never once let outside unaccompanied, this dog never, ever, not once off leash).<br><br>
My dog was a rescue situation. I would never have dreamed of paying someone to intentionally or accidentally breed a dog of his heritage- even though he is exactly what I had wanted (I had been trying to decide between a Pyr, a Saint, and an ASD, when fortune dropped this guy in my lap (well, 4 hours from my lap)).<br><br>
I find that attitude to be pretty patronizing. NO owner can be trusted, so early-neuter them all. Despite the health risks to the animal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I've read the article you all cite about the tremendous dangers of spay/neuter. Ever wonder why I can't find that data published in a journal? I've also started going through to read the papers they cite. Some of that is work done in the 1950s. Some of the data is being manipulated in ways the authors didn't intend.<br><br>
I don't understand saying that if you don't or delay spay/neuter your dog will avoid xyz horrible disease. That's a tremendous oversimplification of the problem. Genetics, breed, nutrition, medical care, exposures....that all plays a role in development of disease, and that's why using retrospective studies to draw these conclusions is hard. To say that a chihuahua shouldn't be neutered because of a fear of osteosarcoma is absurd, particularly based on a study done in Rottweilers. These horrible things that were supposed to occur because of the onset of pediatric spay/neuter just have not panned out.<br><br>
I have never, once said that I am a fan of mandated spay/neuter. And obviously, this breeder (she bred dogs to sell, often for several thousand dollars apiece...she's hardly a proud example of a breeder, but she is, indeed, a breeder) wouldn't spay/neuter. She wouldn't even agree to it when her dogs were open for C-sections.<br><br>
But, I do think that about 99% of owner should have their dogs spayed and neutered. There are 5 to 6 million animals being euthanized per year. Per year. If the majority of breeders, or even people allowing their pets to breed, were responsible, there would not be this level of problem. I have friends who are breeders, and I have no issues with what they do at all. But most of what I see are the people trying to make money (banking on the ignorance of other people to buy the dogs), thinking puppies/kittens are cute, wanting the pet to experience motherhood, wanting the kids to see the miracle of life, or letting their unneutered male run into a stray female and look! puppies!<br><br>
Am I a little hostile here? You bet. So far on this forum I've read that I'm at the whim of pharmaceutical companies (vaccines), pet food companies (Hill's...oh the perks!...the last time I worked at a clinic that recommended Hill's I was 16), and that I'm too stupid to keep up with the literature.<br><br>
I do keep up with the literature. That is published. I'm wary of things on the internet. Let's not forget the Febreeze scandal of 10 years ago.<br><br>
In the end, I use my education to try to help my clients and my patients. I make recommendations with the pet's very best interests at heart.<br><br>
Why on earth is that so hard to believe?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
Here on MDC we believe VERY strongly in evidence-based care. That means no scare tactics, no citing of unrelated statistics (i.e., the fact that there are homeless dogs has *nothing* to do with my dog's risk of bone cancer), and a focus on good studies that end up giving good recommendations for care that is supported by facts.<br><br>
The stuff that I have cited comes from the Canine Health Foundation summary report for 2007. It is not fly-by-night; it's a stringently peer-reviewed group.<br><br>
The findings should surprise no one. It should be obvious to us that removing the sources of the most abundant and important hormones in the body leads to health issues. Where we get into evidence-based care is if we can determine a tipping point where benefit most exceeds risk, or make some reliable statements about overall risk.<br><br>
Cancer targets cells stuck in mid-transition. That's true of just about any cell groups. That's why bone cancers often strike at the sites of micro-fractures; that's why breast and mammary cancers are much more common when you don't breastfeed (or don't breed your dog and let it nurse). Cells are supposed to complete a cycle, and when you stop it mid-cycle there is a great opportunity for cancers to begin. Bone cancer is more common in early-sterilized dogs, we surmise, because the rush of hormones at puberty was not there to mature the bones and growth plates. The growth just petered out over a longer period of time, leaving many more cells stuck in an unmatured state--hence the higher incidence of cancers. That action is not confined to Rottweilers--Rotties are a great breed to see the phenomenon in, because they have a lot of bone cancers, but a toy poodle ALSO grows bones, and ALSO matures, and there's absolutely no reason to think that there isn't a protective element to puberty in small dogs as well.<br><br>
There's a big part of this argument, if it is an argument, that is the direct result of me absolutely refusing to bend to the "bad man" logical fallacy. "Bad man" or "Bad user" says that because there is a theoretical person out there who will use X badly, we must keep X from all persons. So because somehow, someday, a dog might end up in the hands of a bad owner, everybody should sterilize early. It IS a fallacy. You make decisions based on the benefit or risk for you, for your dog, for your breeding program.<br><br>
Just to clarify: I don't think that vaccinations are bad or a way for vets to bleed people. I don't think that annual exams are bad or overly expensive. I am glad that you haven't been in a clinic that recommends Hills in years; personally, I can name you half-a-dozen clinics near me that actively and firmly push Hills products. So your position seems rather the exception than the rule.<br><br>
Also, I would never accept a spay if my bitch was on the table for a c-section, even if she was going to be spayed later. My vet completely refuses to do them if there is any alternative. Spaying during a c-section removes such a large volume of the bitch's blood that it puts her at a huge disadvantage when she has to nourish her puppies.<br><br>
You are right that the catastrophic stuff doesn't happen right after early spay/neuter. What we're talking about is the much more subtle and cumulative lifetime risks--researchers and vets are finally starting to say that maybe all the "neuter yesterday!" rhetoric isn't justified by research.<br><br>
I would be happy to change my recommendations based on EVIDENCE. So if you can show me clear studies that say that the health benefits of early neutering are greater than the health dangers of early neutering (this is in males), I will VERY quickly change what I say. However, everything I've read (from good sources, good journals) in the last several years says the exact opposite.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
31,346 Posts
There is concern over the safety of Febreeze when used in homes with pets. I haven't heard anything about it in relation to dogs and cats, I learned about it years ago in the bird community. Peoples birds were dying in homes that used Febreeze. I haven't followed it since so I'm not sure what the outcome was and if they found the specific cause.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,108 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cadydid</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10758686"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I don't understand saying that if you don't or delay spay/neuter your dog will avoid xyz horrible disease. That's a tremendous oversimplification of the problem.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
No, the tremendous over simplification of the problem is touting on about early spaying/neutering as being the best (or one of the best) way to stop pet over population. We need to EDUCATE owners about pet over population, how to prevent unwanted puppies, how to house in tact dogs, and the I suspect the results will be same regardless of whether or not the dog is sterilized at 12 weeks of age, or at 18 months of age.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,108 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Arduinna</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10759289"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There is concern over the safety of Febreeze when used in homes with pets. I haven't heard anything about it in relation to dogs and cats, I learned about it years ago in the bird community. Peoples birds were dying in homes that used Febreeze. I haven't followed it since so I'm not sure what the outcome was and if they found the specific cause.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Last I heard snopes posted that it was false. I didn't think it was 10 years ago, though. I swear I've gotten a "febreeze is deadly" email the last year. Regardless, I don't use it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,418 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cadydid</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10753464"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><br>
So, when I (or your local vet) pushes spay/neuter as soon as possible, there may be a reason why we feel so strongly about it.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Not all vets feel this way.<br><br>
Now, if I lived in town, and/or if I left my dog in my yard (fenced or not) unattended, and/or if I seemed like a particularly ignorant or irresponsible dog owner, then I could understand a recommendation of neutering earlier rather than later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,418 Posts
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cadydid</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10758686"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><br>
I don't understand saying that if you don't or delay spay/neuter your dog will avoid xyz horrible disease. That's a tremendous oversimplification of the problem.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
I think that is a tremendous oversimplification of what is being said. Of course there are numerous potential factors in the development of a disease. But this is a factor which can be manipulated.<br><br>
If I don't neuter my dog, it does not guarantee that he will not develop osteosarcoma. However, there seems to be some indication that by neutering him, especially before sexual maturity, I may be increasing his chance of developing it. If I wait or don't neuter him at all, I may be decreasing his chance.<br><br>
For example.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,442 Posts
Ok, not trying to "take a side" here, but it wasn't hard for me to see the logical connection in the OP.<br><br>
Where did the woman GET 800 fertile chihuahuas from?<br><br>
If dogs not specifically intended for breeding were routinely spayed/neutered, then hoarding/breeding situations like this would be less likely and couldn't get as extremely out of hand. Responsible breeders will go through the proper channels to secure their breeding stock, but if most animals are spayed/neutered before they are able to breed, irresponsible people will have a harder time obtaining fertile animals.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top