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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://live.psu.edu/story/14051

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While the once-illegal homeschooling trend is indisputably on the rise, Marshall -- while applauding those families who teach their children well -- remains concerned that there may be a societal price paid for this movement. "For these families to dismiss opportunities which can perhaps best be provided through the educational agency of school is a tragic loss which affects everyone who cares about civic America."
I can't tell if I am annoyed by this or if I agree.
 

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What opportunties can best be provided through school? Does he mean sports and band and such? Why can't those opportunties be made available to homeschoolers who are interested in them? Why is homeschooling seen as a "tragic loss" when it is the all or nothing demand of public schools that would seem to be the culprit?

I think schools should be more like other public spaces where you decide how much (if at all) and in what ways you want to use them.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move
I think schools should be more like other public spaces where you decide how much (if at all) and in what ways you want to use them.
Exactly.
Those "opportunities which can perhaps best be provided through the educational agency of school" come at a high price. For our family the price would include little to no recess, corporal punishment, a ridiculously aggressive (and ineffective as our district has a "failing" label from the state ed. agency) phonics based reading program...

And so often the counter is not considered. What about the opportunities which can perhaps best be provided through the educational agency of the home that away-schoolers miss? Some might suggest that has been a tragic loss which effects everyone: consumerism, violence, and apathy, to name a few potential effects.
 

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Quote from the article:

Quote:
Critics often suggest that homeschooled children lag behind socially and academically, with advocates quickly countering with impressive statistics. "Home-educated students generally score at the 65th to 80th percentile on achievement tests, 15 to 30 percentile points higher than those in public schools," stated Brian D. Ray, founder of National Home Education Research Institute and editor of the academic journal Home School Researcher.

It may be unfair to compare the general population of public school students with children educated at home, cautioned Marshall. As he noted, the National Education Association has asserted that "a better test would be a comparison of homeschooled children with a subset of public-school children who have high levels of parental involvement and whose families place a high value on education."
That to me says it all. They are accounting for the high scores and the educational 'success' of home educated children with "high levels of parental involvement and whose families place a high value on education" -- then in the next sentence go on to proclaim the virtues of public school for 'civic America' (what and who exactly is that? lol) without expanding on what the advantages might actually be.

The only real evidence [research & statistics] in the article is in favour of home education but I guess they couldn't just let that stand for itself. Why is the mainstream media so determined to find flaws and insufficiencies in home education?
 

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It always seems to me that the people who "beleive" in school are really annoyed by homeschoolers because we don't beleive. I feel llike it has less to do with the money or parental involvement we take away and more to do with the fact that homeschoolers shake society's beleive in the school institution.

An interesting thing I've recently considered is that America is very anti-intellectual. There's more value placed on doing than thinking.

I can't help but feel that this sentiment works against schools to begin with. Americans beleive kids have to go to school, but there's very little value placed on purely academic pursuits. People talk about "Back to Basic", but let's face it- the "basics" can be taught by the age of 10 easily at home. So why do kids have to stay in there 8 more years?

American beleifs and values are opposed to in depth formal learning. It's no surprise that homeschooling is starting to rock the system. The system is faulty to begin with.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
It always seems to me that the people who "beleive" in school are really annoyed by homeschoolers because we don't beleive. I feel llike it has less to do with the money or parental involvement we take away and more to do with the fact that homeschoolers shake society's beleive in the school institution.

An interesting thing I've recently considered is that America is very anti-intellectual. There's more value placed on doing than thinking.

I can't help but feel that this sentiment works against schools to begin with. Americans beleive kids have to go to school, but there's very little value placed on purely academic pursuits. People talk about "Back to Basic", but let's face it- the "basics" can be taught by the age of 10 easily at home. So why do kids have to stay in there 8 more years?

American beleifs and values are opposed to in depth formal learning. It's no surprise that homeschooling is starting to rock the system. The system is faulty to begin with.
I completely agree with what you wrote.
 

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I accidentally fell asleep putting my toddler to bed, so I'm not completely with it right now. But I can't stop reading this sentence, because it looks confusing to me.:

""For these families to dismiss opportunities which can perhaps best be provided through the educational agency of school..."
What opportunities? Others have asked this question, but I'm still unclear about these opps.

"...is a tragic loss..."
What is a tragic loss? The sentence sounds like it's saying the tragic loss is the fact that the families are dismissing opportunities. So is it a tragic loss to the hs families or is this a tragic loss to the band community or what? I couldn't figure that out. He didn't come right out and say something like, "The non-participation of these (hs) families is a tragic loss". He said that the families dismissing these ambiguous opportunities is a tragic loss. I'm still half-asleep, granted, but this is poorly worded, I think.

"...which affects everyone who cares about civic America."
First of all, this implies that some of us don't care about America, namely the pesky homeschoolers. Second of all, I'm unsure what he means by 'civic' America, but I'll assume he's talking about good citizenship or something. If that's true, that one could argue that homeschooling promotes good citizenship. Most homeschoolers are active in the community and have close family ties. Lots of homeschools promote excellent critical thinking skills and a strong sense of non-conformity, as opposed to schools where compliance and conformity is valued for smooth operation. I would think that a democracy would greatly benefit from critical, independent thinking from its citizens, although conformity certainly is impt these days for the survival of consumerism. Anyway, I would argue that homeschooling benefits civic America.

I guess I feel like this statement was just a poorly veiled insult and that it was rather ambiguously worded.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RubyWild
Perhaps the tragic loss is that the school system loses out on the opportunity to have all the great homeschoolers in their district, not to mention the tax monies for each child enrolled.
I've heard the arguement about tax money before and I just don't get it. I pay property taxes like everyone else. If my kids aren't using school resources then how does this hurt the school. Granted there is a little resource use but, it's not like reviewing our paperwork for homeschooling takes much.

I'm sure someone can explain it to me. Of cousrse my little one is only 1 so for us it isn't an issue yet.
 

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I'm not the poster who said that, but I wanted to add that when your kids are enrolled, the school gets a higher % of money from the state. So, that is why in some areas hs'rs are poked and prodded to go to ps.

I didn't have time to read the whole article but it seems very close minded and ignorant.

JMHO

Olivia
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The whole article seemed to vaguely approve of homeschooling, but only as some second-rate temporary fix to a problem. Even if public schools were perfect I would, in all likelihood, want to teach my children at home.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Leav97
I've heard the arguement about tax money before and I just don't get it. I pay property taxes like everyone else. If my kids aren't using school resources then how does this hurt the school.
In MN, the state government gives school districts $X for each pupil enrolled in the district. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the amount depends on the grade level of the child; school districts are given more money for a high school student than for an elementary aged student. The amount shouldn't be dismissed, it is several thousand dollars per student.

So when your child does not attend the public school, the school district does indeed 'lose' money.
 

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Civic America.

I have a few friends who are bleeding-heart liberals and are very civically minded. They have expressed similar sentiments to the quote you posted. These people would NEVER homeschool or send a child to private school. They strongly believe in the value of public education. They believe that ALL children are entitled to a good education, and when parents choose not to send their kids to PS, it leads to a degradation of the PS. The argument goes that when 'privileged' children are not allowed to mingle with everyone else, EVERYONE loses out. The economically/intellectually/emotionally-privileged kids miss out on the opportunity to see what the 'real world' is like. And the other kids miss out on the opportunity to be enriched by interacting with kids who have more/ are smarter/etc. They also believe that the quality of public schools decline when fewer children attend the schools (fewer students = less money).

I don't agree with these sentiments, but I have had several lively debates with very smart, well-meaning people who strongly believe that public education is the key to our democracy.

As for the sentiment that homeschooled kids are missing out, my response is, "of course they are!" And schooled children are missing out as well. By choosing one path over another, it is inevitable that one will miss certain experiences. However, I don't view this as tragic. That's just the way life is.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by annethcz
Civic America.

I have a few friends who are bleeding-heart liberals and are very civically minded. They have expressed similar sentiments to the quote you posted. These people would NEVER homeschool or send a child to private school. They strongly believe in the value of public education. They believe that ALL children are entitled to a good education, and when parents choose not to send their kids to PS, it leads to a degradation of the PS. The argument goes that when 'privileged' children are not allowed to mingle with everyone else, EVERYONE loses out. The economically/intellectually/emotionally-privileged kids miss out on the opportunity to see what the 'real world' is like. And the other kids miss out on the opportunity to be enriched by interacting with kids who have more/ are smarter/etc. They also believe that the quality of public schools decline when fewer children attend the schools (fewer students = less money).

I don't agree with these sentiments, but I have had several lively debates with very smart, well-meaning people who strongly believe that public education is the key to our democracy.

As for the sentiment that homeschooled kids are missing out, my response is, "of course they are!" And schooled children are missing out as well. By choosing one path over another, it is inevitable that one will miss certain experiences. However, I don't view this as tragic. That's just the way life is.

I have exactly the same friend, and have had lively debates with him over homeschooling.


IMO, any "civic" loss is result of a society that shuns the presence of children in public spaces, and has completely separated the world of children from the world of adult work and play. Because we have segregated children in institutions (schools) and do not welcome them in the larger public/civic space then we are forced to rely on schools for "civic' education. This is problematic for so many reasons. The schools do a horrible job at this for all the reasons we have discussed here. They too are segregated by class, race, age, ability etc. They don't really teach much about public, or "civic" life. They are isolated from actual public life, so the education is artificial and students see it as such.

One of the things I think many (not all) homeschoolers do so well is to counteract our non child friendly society. They take their children with them into the larger world, refusing to segregate them in schools. This is real "civic" education. Those whose criticize homeschooling along these lines are simply not seeing the larger picture.
 

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I've debated with someone like that, who was a HUGE believer in public schools and public schools only. The idea was almost like I owed the schools my children, as a good American. It almost reminded me of communist fervor, seriously. In my personal experience, children sadly self-segregate or are segregated by the schools very early on, taking away from the idealistic notion that the school environment provides a rich mixed microcosm. I don't believe that very much meaningful interaction goes on between the haves and have-nots.

OTOH, my children will have loads of opportunities to volunteer with me, significantly more than their schooled counterparts. I'm desperate to do Habitat for Humanity with my kids. I did that in college and it was so meaningful. So, they'll get plenty of chances to be good citizens.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
. This is real "civic" education. Those whose criticize homeschooling along these lines are simply not seeing the larger picture.
Well said. I find it frustrating when people make strong points in favor of one side of an issue, without understanding the other side of the issue -- regardless of what that issue is.

Even as a homeschooler, I can totally support a thriving, reformed public school system. But until that reform happens, I don't feel the need to send my child into a system that is clearly flawed, and arguably failing.

In fact, it may well be arguable that there is no civic loss to homeschooling. In the long run, it's producing children who are more capable of success at college/university level, and it's producing adults who are more capable at the type of thinking needed for keeping our country competetive with the technological and economic advances of the other great nations in our world.

I will never support an argument that's premise is bringing everyone down for the sake of public good. I'm far more likely to support the side of a debate that is about bringing people up. Let's talk about supporting homeschoolers, AND improving / reforming public schools!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by annethcz
I have a few friends who are bleeding-heart liberals and are very civically minded. They have expressed similar sentiments to the quote you posted. These people would NEVER homeschool or send a child to private school. They strongly believe in the value of public education. They believe that ALL children are entitled to a good education, and when parents choose not to send their kids to PS, it leads to a degradation of the PS.
I actually knew a guy in college who was upset that high schools offer AP classes! He thought that all kids should be in the same class, and that the "advanced" kids had a duty to help out their classmates, even if that meant that they didn't learn anything new the entire year. If they were truly advanced, the school should provide them with an advanced text and let them learn on their own time.
 

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Subscribing. No time to read all and post. . . .

Um, I will say that I HATE that liberal claptrap that says I owe the government schools my bright, beloved child so that she can help inculcate her age-peers in their system. Phooey. She is my responsibility, and as I help her become an informed, caring, committed, engaged, capable adult, she will contribute to her society in myriad meaningful ways.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by annethcz
Civic America.

I have a few friends who are bleeding-heart liberals and are very civically minded. They have expressed similar sentiments to the quote you posted. These people would NEVER homeschool or send a child to private school. They strongly believe in the value of public education. They believe that ALL children are entitled to a good education, and when parents choose not to send their kids to PS, it leads to a degradation of the PS. The argument goes that when 'privileged' children are not allowed to mingle with everyone else, EVERYONE loses out. The economically/intellectually/emotionally-privileged kids miss out on the opportunity to see what the 'real world' is like. And the other kids miss out on the opportunity to be enriched by interacting with kids who have more/ are smarter/etc. They also believe that the quality of public schools decline when fewer children attend the schools (fewer students = less money).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
I have exactly the same friend, and have had lively debates with him over homeschooling.

IMO, any "civic" loss is result of a society that shuns the presence of children in public spaces, and has completely separated the world of children from the world of adult work and play. Because we have segregated children in institutions (schools) and do not welcome them in the larger public/civic space then we are forced to rely on schools for "civic' education. This is problematic for so many reasons. The schools do a horrible job at this for all the reasons we have discussed here. They too are segregated by class, race, age, ability etc. They don't really teach much about public, or "civic" life. They are isolated from actual public life, so the education is artificial and students see it as such.

One of the things I think many (not all) homeschoolers do so well is to counteract our non child friendly society. They take their children with them into the larger world, refusing to segregate them in schools. This is real "civic" education. Those whose criticize homeschooling along these lines are simply not seeing the larger picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftField
I've debated with someone like that, who was a HUGE believer in public schools and public schools only. The idea was almost like I owed the schools my children, as a good American. It almost reminded me of communist fervor, seriously. In my personal experience, children sadly self-segregate or are segregated by the schools very early on, taking away from the idealistic notion that the school environment provides a rich mixed microcosm. I don't believe that very much meaningful interaction goes on between the haves and have-nots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HippoMommy
Um, I will say that I HATE that liberal claptrap that says I owe the government schools my bright, beloved child so that she can help inculcate her age-peers in their system. Phooey. She is my responsibility, and as I help her become an informed, caring, committed, engaged, capable adult, she will contribute to her society in myriad meaningful ways.

Wow. Can I dispel a few assumptions that you all(and others here)have made with your statements?
Homeschoolers come from all political spectrums, social backgrounds and reasons for doing it.
I have many right-wing conservative friends and neighbors who believe that it is un-american for my family to be unschoolers for the same reasons that you say bleeding heart liberals say we should send our children to school. I also have many left-wing liberal friends, neighbors and fellow homeschooling families who wouldn't send their children to school if the government paid them to.
So please stop with the liberal vs. conservative homeschooling arguments.
I have found that most people(liberal and conservative)who are against homeschooling, have no real knowledge of in practice in real life. They are against it out of fear of the unknown.

Take Care,
Erika
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ErikaDP
Wow. Can I dispel a few assumptions that you all(and others here)have made with your statements?
Homeschoolers come from all political spectrums, social backgrounds and reasons for doing it.
I have many right-wing conservative friends and neighbors who believe that it is un-american for my family to be unschoolers for the same reasons that you say bleeding heart liberals say we should send our children to school. I also have many left-wing liberal friends, neighbors and fellow homeschooling families who wouldn't send their children to school if the government paid them to.
So please stop with the liberal vs. conservative homeschooling arguments.
I have found that most people(liberal and conservative)who are against homeschooling, have no real knowledge of in practice in real life. They are against it out of fear of the unknown.

Take Care,
Erika
I don't believe I mentioned liberal or conservative ideologies anywhere in my post except to mention that I had a liberal friend with whom I had argued about homeschooling.


In fact, my statement in no way implies that homeschoolers are liberal or conservative. I sincerely believe you have misread the posts you quoted. What I understand us to be commenting on is our disagreement with a particular type of argument against homeschooling. To disagree with a particular type of argument is not to say that all arguments against homeschooling fall into this type.
 
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