another time out thread
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Congratulations on your new LO! DS is only about 20 months but we don't do timeouts and don't see why we ever would. Read the book Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn for a really good explanation of what is wrong with time outs. For me the takeaway was that time out is a withdrawal of love and that's not a message I want to send- unless you behave like I want you to I don't love you. I remember having what amounts to a timeout when I was little and all it did was make me mad! Instead of "thinking about what I had done" I just thought about how mad and humiliated I was at having to sit apart and be ostracized. I highly recommend Kohn's book, especially before your baby is even here, how great to start with these ideas instead of trying to unlearn years of patterned behavior that's not working! His book really changed how I view my role as parent and how I view my child.
I try to make the environment as safe, kid friendly and available as possible to avoid most power struggles/issues and if I see I have failed to think of something, I'll remove/rearrange to accomodate(sp? none of the ways I spelled it looked right) Anyway, if we have a time when I find I'm frustrated or impatient with DS's behavior, I try to see what it is he's needing- more closeness/time with me, more access to something to experiment with, more exciting things to explore, less things out, more sleep, more outside time, more food, etc. Basically, I assume the best about his behavior and look for what I can change to help him be more satisfied/stimulated. And that is, of course, not to say that there's no discipline- just that I've found if i'm feeling upset by his actions, it's usually something about the environment that I have overlooked. Does that make sense? Not to equate children and dogs, but for simplicity and it's the only example I can think of- if my puppy chews up my shoes, it's mostly my fault for leaving my shoes where she could get to them- chewing is just what puppies are going to do. I have to set up DS's environment so he has the greatest chance for success in interacting with it.
So those are my thoughts, hope that helps!
I try to make the environment as safe, kid friendly and available as possible to avoid most power struggles/issues and if I see I have failed to think of something, I'll remove/rearrange to accomodate(sp? none of the ways I spelled it looked right) Anyway, if we have a time when I find I'm frustrated or impatient with DS's behavior, I try to see what it is he's needing- more closeness/time with me, more access to something to experiment with, more exciting things to explore, less things out, more sleep, more outside time, more food, etc. Basically, I assume the best about his behavior and look for what I can change to help him be more satisfied/stimulated. And that is, of course, not to say that there's no discipline- just that I've found if i'm feeling upset by his actions, it's usually something about the environment that I have overlooked. Does that make sense? Not to equate children and dogs, but for simplicity and it's the only example I can think of- if my puppy chews up my shoes, it's mostly my fault for leaving my shoes where she could get to them- chewing is just what puppies are going to do. I have to set up DS's environment so he has the greatest chance for success in interacting with it.
So those are my thoughts, hope that helps!
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I feel like the purpose for my family to use a timeout would be to give dd a chance to calm down. But she doesn't calm down during a time out. She gets angier and it fules the fire. So I'm going more toward time-ins. Getting down on her level, holding, hugging and talking softly-empathizing with her feelings. She calms down a lot quicker, feels heard, and then I can distract her with a new activity, or word my response to her demand in a way that isn't giving in, but isn't a flat out refusal either. Her tantrums end a lot quicker when she feels heard and loved and accepted even when she's losing control.
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We used to do timeouts and we stopped. I was never comfortable with the way my STBX did them (very punishment oriented) and one day we got into a huge fight when I went to get my son out because he was hysterical. I set out to find a way to get him to stop doing TO's and I got him to read the UP section. After that, we never did them again.
My DS would get so angry from a timeout that it never did any good. He is extremely sensitive and they just didn't work at all. We went to just talking and that works so there is no reason for timeouts.
People are astonished when I tell them we just talk because my kids are so well behaved. But it really does work if you start from an early age. Kudos to you for wanting to figure this out before you are faced with the situation. I wish we had never done timeouts but I guess you live and learn.
My DS would get so angry from a timeout that it never did any good. He is extremely sensitive and they just didn't work at all. We went to just talking and that works so there is no reason for timeouts.
People are astonished when I tell them we just talk because my kids are so well behaved. But it really does work if you start from an early age. Kudos to you for wanting to figure this out before you are faced with the situation. I wish we had never done timeouts but I guess you live and learn.
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I second the "read Alfie Kohn" suggestion. My DD is, fortunately, pretty easy-going and doesn't really do the tantrum thing, nor is she ever really what you could call defiant or disobedient - but then again, she's never been punished, made to feel shame about things she's done, or put in a time-out. Without an identical twin being raised differently elsewhere, it's hard to say what's the cause and what's the effect, kwim?
I try to treat DD with respect and understand that her needs and desires are no less valid than mine just because they come from a 3-year-old instead of a 36-year-old. I can't envision a situation in which I *would* put her in a time-out - if she's upset and unreasonable, she needs cuddles and comfort, not sitting alone. If she's angry, there's probably a good reason, and she needs to have the opportunity to tell me exactly why. If she's doing something she's not supposed to, and keeps doing it even if there's a good reason not to, then there's something else going on and it behooves me to figure out what it is, which is very much more difficult if she's pissed of at that AND pissed off that she's been told to sit in a corner or whatever. It's not very conducive to eliciting cooperation.
So, I've never been even tempted to use a time-out. I'm a pretty flexible person, and I think that helps. One thing that I've noticed leads to tantrums and time-outs in other parent-child dyads is that parents say "no" or "we have to do X" without really thinking about it, then feel for some reason that they have to stick with what they said when the child objects - like it's somehow damaging or wrong for a parent to correct him/herself or accede to a child's wishes, even if there is no reason not to. I think parents sometimes think that if they can be swayed by a child's argument sometimes, they will be taken advantage of, or the child will want to always have her way, or they will "lose the upper hand."
As to the latter, I don't believe in having an "upper hand" to start with - children are partners in family life, not subservients. As to the former points, I think children are more likely to be accepting of decisions when they can trust that you don't enforce something they're not happy with unless you've got a darned good reason. I have never used the phrase "Because I said so" - I've always provided an explanation, and if I can't come up with a good one, then obviously DD is quite right to question me and object. If I can, it helps if some of the time she can understand that reason, but even if she can't understand the reasoning, I think she knows bull**** when she hears it, so I don't try to make up a grown-up-ish excuse.
Anyway, this is a bit of a rambling response. I know I am blessed to have a child who has always been largely agreeable and reasonable beyond her years, but I also think that the parenting style that I (and my DH) employ has worked with her nature and enhanced it. I also know that all kids are different, and it's entirely possible that I'm talking out of my backside if I think that my approach could be generalized
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I try to treat DD with respect and understand that her needs and desires are no less valid than mine just because they come from a 3-year-old instead of a 36-year-old. I can't envision a situation in which I *would* put her in a time-out - if she's upset and unreasonable, she needs cuddles and comfort, not sitting alone. If she's angry, there's probably a good reason, and she needs to have the opportunity to tell me exactly why. If she's doing something she's not supposed to, and keeps doing it even if there's a good reason not to, then there's something else going on and it behooves me to figure out what it is, which is very much more difficult if she's pissed of at that AND pissed off that she's been told to sit in a corner or whatever. It's not very conducive to eliciting cooperation.
So, I've never been even tempted to use a time-out. I'm a pretty flexible person, and I think that helps. One thing that I've noticed leads to tantrums and time-outs in other parent-child dyads is that parents say "no" or "we have to do X" without really thinking about it, then feel for some reason that they have to stick with what they said when the child objects - like it's somehow damaging or wrong for a parent to correct him/herself or accede to a child's wishes, even if there is no reason not to. I think parents sometimes think that if they can be swayed by a child's argument sometimes, they will be taken advantage of, or the child will want to always have her way, or they will "lose the upper hand."
As to the latter, I don't believe in having an "upper hand" to start with - children are partners in family life, not subservients. As to the former points, I think children are more likely to be accepting of decisions when they can trust that you don't enforce something they're not happy with unless you've got a darned good reason. I have never used the phrase "Because I said so" - I've always provided an explanation, and if I can't come up with a good one, then obviously DD is quite right to question me and object. If I can, it helps if some of the time she can understand that reason, but even if she can't understand the reasoning, I think she knows bull**** when she hears it, so I don't try to make up a grown-up-ish excuse.
Anyway, this is a bit of a rambling response. I know I am blessed to have a child who has always been largely agreeable and reasonable beyond her years, but I also think that the parenting style that I (and my DH) employ has worked with her nature and enhanced it. I also know that all kids are different, and it's entirely possible that I'm talking out of my backside if I think that my approach could be generalized
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I started parenthood out with the notion that i would never spank or do time outs. Of course I now have a toddler and sometimes your ideals just have to change to meet the demands of your child. We do timeouts. I have a very difficult srong willed child and a time out protects him, our dog, and US when he is raging. Just yesterday my DS didn't want to come inside at dinnertime so when DH brought him in he went NUTS. Throwing things screaming till he gagged. We brought him a cup of water and got on his level to try to reason with him- he ripped my DH's glasses off, threw the water at me, punched me repeatedly all in a span of a few seconds. I was livid- so I carried him to his time out chair and strapped him in. To me, that is a better solution than flying off the handle with my own rage.
Just sending an example your way of what life can be really like with a toddler. I have read all the books, and sometimes feel that they are catered toward a different child than the one I have!
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Just sending an example your way of what life can be really like with a toddler. I have read all the books, and sometimes feel that they are catered toward a different child than the one I have!
The only time I tried to use timeouts was with sibling violence - that is very frustrating and I would get so angry with the offender.
The timeouts didn't work though because DD would get so angry and upset, crying, screaming and choking and she wouldn't stay where we put her. I think it's awful to try to forcefully restrain a child when they are upset like that and I felt evil trying to keep her in her room or whatever. So we talked about it and we came up with a plan that DD could pick where she would go calm down until she could control her hands/feet whatever.
And I just try not to engage in power struggles. If the kids don't come to the dinner table for dinner - the logical consequence would be no dinner or cold dinner. I don't expect my kids to obey me mindlessly. Sometimes they have their own agendas that we should respect. Sometimes they need to finish what they are doing first and I don't have a problem with that.
The timeouts didn't work though because DD would get so angry and upset, crying, screaming and choking and she wouldn't stay where we put her. I think it's awful to try to forcefully restrain a child when they are upset like that and I felt evil trying to keep her in her room or whatever. So we talked about it and we came up with a plan that DD could pick where she would go calm down until she could control her hands/feet whatever.
And I just try not to engage in power struggles. If the kids don't come to the dinner table for dinner - the logical consequence would be no dinner or cold dinner. I don't expect my kids to obey me mindlessly. Sometimes they have their own agendas that we should respect. Sometimes they need to finish what they are doing first and I don't have a problem with that.
My son doesn't calm down with a time out, so for us it would be punitive rather than instructive. I'm not saying we never would use them; it just doesn't work for us that well right now.
Sometimes I think any "instant correction" thing can mask the underlying issues. So that's why I'm suspicious of them. Good TV more than good parenting.
Sometimes I think any "instant correction" thing can mask the underlying issues. So that's why I'm suspicious of them. Good TV more than good parenting.
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I find them disrespectful. I couldn't tell my ds that he *must* stay in a specific spot for a specific period of time until he says he's sorry because *I* was displeased with him. I wouldn't like to be treated this way.
I agree with calming down time though. Ds went through a period of time when he was very whiny, time ins would just make him more agitated; so when I was at the end of my rope I would ask him to take some time to calm down in his room. But the door was always open, he could get in and out of this room whenever he wanted.
I agree with calming down time though. Ds went through a period of time when he was very whiny, time ins would just make him more agitated; so when I was at the end of my rope I would ask him to take some time to calm down in his room. But the door was always open, he could get in and out of this room whenever he wanted.
The reason I wouldn't ever start doing them is because my dd would have these terrible violent tantrums and flip out so violently I couldn't see any way to do it without being very physical. If I tried to pick her up and put her in time out, the level of physical restraint I'd have to use to get her there and keep her there would be way over my comfort level.
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We don't do timeouts. Dd is now 4. We allow for natural consequences or give punishments related to what was done wrong if needed. When dd was a toddler, we did lots of redirecting.
I don't think time out teaches anything, so that's pretty much the reason why we don't do them.
I don't think time out teaches anything, so that's pretty much the reason why we don't do them.
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Quote:
I agree completely and it's the same here with the cool-off time. I think that this is encouraging the formation of a habit for coping with overwhelming emotions, and not at all a punishment. It is only helpful to ds1, so he's the only one who does it, and he often chooses to cool off without any prompting. Our others need time-ins with lots of cuddling and playful encouragement. Once they're ready and calm, we always talk about the situation too, so it isn't ignored and they don't feel like they've not been heard or that they have to suck-it-up or any such thing.
I just wanted to add that like some many other issues to do with natural parenting, the question I would ask is not 'why shouldn't I use time-outs?' but being presented with or otherwise aware of TOs, I would ask, "Is this beneficial to my family? Would time-outs enhance the compassionate, intentional atmosphere of our family life?" The answer for us is very clearly no, so why I wouldn't do it isn't relevant to me any longer.
There are myriad supposed options for how to treat others, but I simply don't consider anything that doesn't meet my criteria with a certain "yes." It actually simplifies things nicely for me. My automatic question answer formula allows me to disregard incongruent ideas without conflict- internal or external. A 'maybe' requires research, but I can always come to a point in my understanding when an answer to my question is clear, even if 'no' ends up being, 'not yet' or 'not anymore'.
I have compliments every time we go out. Our boys are such a treat to take out! And lest you think we just have agreeable boys, let me reassure you that their agreeableness is completely and utterly contingent upon their feeling respected and heard. All of our boys have ADD (well, babe is just falling in line, but we don't yet know the degree for him), as does dh and so do I. I simply cannot imagine the sort of war-like chaos that would occur in our home without a consensus on the need and willingness to give respect. This means that punishment is not an option, in any form. My boys are thriving. I completely disagree with the common prescription to tighten the reigns on ADD children, and wouldn't with them no matter the condition of their brains.
I really cannot think of a situation where TO is the only or the best option.
Originally Posted by transylvania_mom  I find them disrespectful. I couldn't tell my ds that he *must* stay in a specific spot for a specific period of time until he says he's sorry because *I* was displeased with him. I wouldn't like to be treated this way. I agree with calming down time though. Ds went through a period of time when he was very whiny, time ins would just make him more agitated; so when I was at the end of my rope I would ask him to take some time to calm down in his room. But the door was always open, he could get in and out of this room whenever he wanted. |
I just wanted to add that like some many other issues to do with natural parenting, the question I would ask is not 'why shouldn't I use time-outs?' but being presented with or otherwise aware of TOs, I would ask, "Is this beneficial to my family? Would time-outs enhance the compassionate, intentional atmosphere of our family life?" The answer for us is very clearly no, so why I wouldn't do it isn't relevant to me any longer.
There are myriad supposed options for how to treat others, but I simply don't consider anything that doesn't meet my criteria with a certain "yes." It actually simplifies things nicely for me. My automatic question answer formula allows me to disregard incongruent ideas without conflict- internal or external. A 'maybe' requires research, but I can always come to a point in my understanding when an answer to my question is clear, even if 'no' ends up being, 'not yet' or 'not anymore'.
I have compliments every time we go out. Our boys are such a treat to take out! And lest you think we just have agreeable boys, let me reassure you that their agreeableness is completely and utterly contingent upon their feeling respected and heard. All of our boys have ADD (well, babe is just falling in line, but we don't yet know the degree for him), as does dh and so do I. I simply cannot imagine the sort of war-like chaos that would occur in our home without a consensus on the need and willingness to give respect. This means that punishment is not an option, in any form. My boys are thriving. I completely disagree with the common prescription to tighten the reigns on ADD children, and wouldn't with them no matter the condition of their brains.
I really cannot think of a situation where TO is the only or the best option.
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