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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>CallMeIshmael</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Here, the authors of the study are looking at <i>when</i> cases of pertussis occurred. They found that among both vaxed and unvaxed, ~1/3 of the cases occured during "high season" (July to September) and the remainder of the cases occurred throughout the rest of the year. This tells you nothing about the efficacy of the vaccine.</div>
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Thank you, Ishmael!<br>
So, why do you think vaxed kids were slightly more prone to their own degree of susceptibility than the unvaxed ones?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MamaInTheBoonies</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Antibiotics compromise the already compromised immune system, therefore making it more susceptable to pneumonia.</div>
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Ok...but why?<br>
How would that work?..specifically for the B pertussis bacteria and it's effect on the respiratory tract?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thank you, Ishmael!<br>
So, why do you think vaxed kids were slightly more prone to their own degree of susceptibility than the unvaxed ones?</div>
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Are you asking why 33.8% of the vaxed cases happened during high season, but only 28.7% of the unvaxed?<br><br>
If so, here's the key: p = 0.714. That means that, by the authors' fancy statistical calculations, the difference between the two groups was 71.4% likely to be due to chance alone. In other words, odds are there was no difference between vaxed and nonvaxed in terms of what time of year they got sick.<br><br>
For what it's worth, the lower the p value, the more likely the result you're seeing is "real". To be "statistically significant", you need a p of less than 0.05 (i.e., less than 5% chance that the result is due to chance alone.)
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Think this one through.<br><br>
We know that antibiotics taken during pregnancy, makes a child more susceptible to asthma. That's published in the medical literature.<br><br>
We know that tooth decay is related to immune function. That is why someone with tetanus can suddenly get large cavities. WE know that kids who take antibiotics when a tooth is forming will end up with crumbly molars that just disintegrate.<br><br>
There is so much that we know that antibiotics CAN do, but we cannot answer the questions as to why to everything.<br><br>
But here's my <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">theory</span></b>, though to understand it you'll have to understand endotoxin in a broader way than perhaps you do now.<br><br>
Firstly, the human gut is filled with probiotics "whose" primary job is to keep a bacterial balance. Every baby has some gram negative bacteria, but bottle fed babies have 1,000 times more than breastfed, but even breastfed babies can have them if they have a low grade fever, and the mother is silly enough to give comp bottles, which result in a bacterial rating the same as completely formula fed babies.<br><br>
Erthromycin is the greatest gut stripper out that there is, good, bad and otherwise. It creates hell and back again with me, and many kids who have had whooping cough even quite mildly, and been put on erythromycin have gone backwards fast.<br><br>
The only way to help them out of it is to replace the probiotics and then whack in even more vitamin C and here's why.<br><br>
They key to understanding why pertussis babies get worse on antibiotics is to understand gut flora. When the good gut flora is destroyed, it makes space for gram negative bacteria. The foremost gram negative bacteria in the gut E.coli, but its not the only one. We all have e.coli. It's a commensal, and in small amounts performs some useful functions. But that's where the good story ends. <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">FIRST</span></b> up, the erythromycin kills the gram negative bacteria in the gut as well as the good gut flora.<br><br>
Oh yum. Trouble coming <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bigeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="bigeyes"><br><br>
The part of e.coli, and other gram negative bacteria that is endotoxin is the envelope. When the bacteria multiple normally, just a little bit drops off (imaging a hippo with extra skin taking a tuck...) and that is called "curlin". But when antibiotics kill e.coli, huge amounts of dead skin break up and become huge amounts of endotoxin, and has to be processed through the liver kuppfer cells. But when you use antibiotics which happen to kill gram negative bacteria, and the body gets a huge bolus dose of curlin, that puts the liver under huge pressure, and it slows down so much that curlin gets through into the bloodstream, becasue the liver can only cope with so much.<br><br>
The child may also be carry gram negative strep in the throat and elsewhere, and if that is killed it too released its own endotoxin into the blood stream, but the quantities are nowhere near that which will be released by the gut. E.coli is usually the source of the majority of secondary endotoxin about to flood the liver.<br><br>
The child will have some endocab (endotoxin core antibodies) in the blood, and so long as there are enough endocab to neutralise the curlin, relatively fine though there will be worsening symptoms while the body struggles to contain the mess. But if/when endocab runs out, things go even further backwards, and you're looking at apneoa and seizures.<br><br>
The only other thing that neutralises curlin other than endocab is vitamin C, so if the baby is a sensible Mothering baby, whose mother knows to dose bigtime, then that will be no problem for the baby. The baby will be so full it will be okay BUT>>>>> after antibiotics a Mothering mother will need to radically increase vitamin C. But hopefully a Mothering mother won't be using antibiotics, will she??? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hammer.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hammer"><br><br>
But <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">these babies</span></b> are babies of parents who think the sun shines outta the local pharmaceutical pushers and shovers incorporated, who will not, of course, know a thing about vitamin C.<br><br>
So that poor baby is now struggling with endotoxin from the gut, not being trapped by the liver, leaking through and using up endocab and vitamin C in the blood, which up until then have PRIMARILY been used to neutralise the endotoxin from the pertussis bacteria coming from the bronchials.<br><br>
We know that erythromycin doesn't touch the pertussis bacteria in the bronchials anyway, which is adhered to the cilia in the bronchials, so why blimmin well use it <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry">. These pertussis bacteria are still putting out pertussis toxin into the mucus, which is still absorbed into the body, and the blood stream, which was previously neutralised by endocab, which is <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">now</span></b> trying to neutraliseting all the endotoxin released from the gut by the antibiotics.<br><br>
Course, doctors haven't worked these things out for themselves, because they don't know how to figure these things out. Basic common sense and an understanding of well documented physiology. I have medical literature on this from Tissier in 1903!!! It's not like it hasn't been extensively studied, but see, its old, and anything not in the last five years, is stone aged medicine, right? Just like vitamin C is just a vitamin right? If the pharmaceutical companies don't tell doctors what to do, what would they know unless they fell over it themselves, or were hit over the head by realists?<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Now you know why, for years, and years, and years, here, in my various incarnations I have PLEADED, shouted, ranted and raved and begged on bended knees for mothers to NEVER us antibiotics with pertussis.</b></span><br><br>
Antibiotics do no good in pertussis, and can do harm in a baby whose diet is short of vitamin C. And of course, when these babies who are put on antibiotics with not enough vitamin C and running out of endocab, suddenly get worse and die, the doctors then say to the mothers "We did everything we could your baby died of whooping cough! (should have had them vaccinated silly !nevu mind the vaccine doesn't work...)".<br><br>
Yet, the death certificate should read "this baby died because the doctor was ignorant about vitamin C, and also about how antibiotics can provoke endotoxemia from the gut and overwhelm the kuppfer cells and serum endocab.<br><br>
CallmeIshmael gets that bit wrong. Antibiotic administration is never an indication of severity. It's always an indication of parental or paediatrician's distress, and I've seen babies go from antibiotics, to the oxygen tent to life support, not because the pertussis is super severe, but because babies suddenly have to deal with endotoxin from two sources, not one. But of course, because doctors don't KNOW how to "see" endotoxemia in totality, they will assume that its an increase in severity in the pertussis endotoxemia.<br><br>
But... if they knew something about vitamin C, then none of any of that would have happened, babies wouldn't get so seriously ill that anyone would even think about antibiotics.<br><br>
In my 24 years of being emotional nanny to mothers with pertussis babies, I've turned around so many so-called serious cases and converted them into averagely ill, and some of you here, know that, because you've learned how to do that at this board.<br><br>
But doctors do not understand the basic concepts of endotoxic shock in its entirety, and don't realise what they are doing when they prescribe antibiotics and can't see that the antibiotics are <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">creating a second source</span></b> of endotoxic shock from the gut, which causes double trouble, and puts double strain on endocab ( endoab - endotoxin core antibody).<br><br>
They have not learned, and for some pathological reason cannot learn to <b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">think</span></b>.<br><br>
Okay? Zat a rant enough?<br><br>
Righty then. Now you know why I didn't reply the first time, because I knew it would turn into a rant.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Oh and I forgot something. If a kid makes it through that first bolus dose of endotoxemia from the gut from the first dose of the first antibiotic course, and afterwards doesn't get probiotics re-established in the gut ~~~~ and you tell me one doctor who prescribes probiotics <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/duh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="duh"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/hopmad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hopping mad">, then the gram negative bacteria, which are the ones that recolonise fastest, continue to provide longer term low-grade endotoxemia afterwards, which of course, hampers recovery because again, the body is having to detoxify from two sources not one. And if the doc decides on a second course, you can go through the same jolly cycle again <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry">.<br><br>
So that's the price of being a conformed mother who thinks the sun shines outta...
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Gah... I'm going to bed.... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/sulkoff.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="tiptoe">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>CallMeIshmael</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Here, the authors of the study are looking at <i>when</i> cases of pertussis occurred. They found that among both vaxed and unvaxed, ~1/3 of the cases occured during "high season" (July to September) and the remainder of the cases occurred throughout the rest of the year. This tells you nothing about the efficacy of the vaccine.</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/duh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="duh"> It's so obvious now that you've pointed it out!
 

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Ah yes, it's talking about <i>when</i> the cases occurred. Looking at only the quote I couldn't tell what "proportion of cases" referred to. It did seem weird that the authors would claim the vaccine was useless. Thanks for the clarification, CMI.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">And while many consider whooping cough a glorified cold, the illness develops into pneumonia in about half the cases, Orenstein says.</td>
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OMG! That is such an incredible lie! Meanwhile we have this article published in the <a href="http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/299" target="_blank">British Medical Journal</a> that reports a grand total of <b>5</b> cases of pneumonia out of nearly 5000 cases of pertussis. That's, um, about 1 in a 1000! How can they dare to claim that HALF of pertussis cases turn in to pneumonia? And 3 out of those 5 pneumonia cases were even vaccinated! So much for "it's milder in the vaccinated cases."<br><br>
The conclusion of that BMJ article is completely illogical as well:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If whooping cough is commonly a mild disease and likely to be missed, what are the implications for clinical practice? If whooping cough were perceived as a less severe disease it might have an adverse effect on immunisation uptake. Since early diagnosis is difficult, and neither isolation nor treatment with antibiotics is sufficiently effective, it is important to emphasise the vaccine's major role in maintaining herd immunity. Information for professionals and the public should give a more balanced view of the natural course of whooping cough, recognising the high prevalence of mild cases as well as the continued seriousness for infants.11 Parents of children with the disease or in contact with it should be reassured that serious illness with complications is unlikely, but education should ensure that parents understand that a high immunisation rate is the only practical means of reducing damage and deaths in those too young to be immunised.</td>
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In other words...we wouldn't want parents to know that pertussis is usually quite mild and only very rarely leads to any complications, because then they might not want to vaccinate their kids and we wouldn't have "herd immunity". Even though the entire text of the article pretty blatantly demonstrates there is no such thing as herd immunity for pertussis. Vaccinated people get pertussis...even people who've HAD pertussis get it a second time...where the HELL do they get the idea that there is some kind of "herd immunity" at work here?
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Wednesday, it goes something like this. If he hadn't said that the vaccine had some use BMJ would never have published it. I know a doctor who knew a doctor in Maryland, who submitted an article to Maryland Medical Journal about side effects to the pertussis vaccine. The article is a classic, as the side effects are so bad, that no-one in their right mind would, seeing those figures, have the vaccine. They told the doctor that if he added right at the end, the sentence that the vaccine was safe and effective and should continue to be used, they would publish the article. They gave him the wording to use.<br><br>
He added it, re-submiotted it, thinking any editor who actually read the article, would see the stupidity of saying the vaccine was safe and effective, but no... they published it. It's a classic. I should have it framed as a monument to the fact that medical journals world wide, when it comes to vaccines, have this stupid, incredible rule, that no matter what else you say, you have to find a vaccine useful in as many respects as you can.<br><br>
I'm sure Jenkinson was lined up against the wall like everyone else.<br><br>
I wasn't surprised to see the last paragraph. It was interesting to see how he would word the required rubbish.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Was the antibiotic explanation useful/helpful or does it require further elaboration?
 

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In looking for the stuff for Annabel about pre-vaccine antibody levels I found this:<br><br>
Clinical Infectious Diseases 1992;14:708-719 "Epidemiological Features of Pertussis in the United States, 1980 - 1989" Farixo K M. et al.<br><br>
On page 714 under the table it said:
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"when treatment with erythromycin was initiated... the duration of cough tended to be even longer than for persons who did not receive erythromycin at all."<br></td>
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Well now, isn't that amazing.<br><br>
So they've been prescribing antibiotics for pertussis all those years on the basis of garbage science, not realising that it actually makes the outcome for the patient potentially worse?<br><br>
Oi oi oi....
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtezuma Tuatara</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Was the antibiotic explanation useful/helpful or does it require further elaboration?</div>
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Thank you, it was very helpful to me.<br><br>
And not only for better understanding of pertussis (which I admit was the only disease that still scared me if I have a second child, for the potential of exposing the baby) but for another reason...<br><br>
I'm currently trying to break through to a casual friend whose DD has had a year of antibiotics, different kinds, low dose prophylactic etc. etc. Her digestion is shot, constant diarrhea and she has been through gut test after gut test in The Best Hospital for Children in the Country. And the drs say they don't know what's wrong with her. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="banghead"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/Cuss.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="cuss"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/hopmad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hopping mad"><br><br>
This world is freaking insane.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
There are a couple of threads in Health and Healing on Probiotics and Healing the gut I think. Not everything on them is relevant, and they are long, but put in a nutshell, her gut needs a rebore and lube with probiotics.
 

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So, antibiotics given to a person with Whooping Cough will make them more susceptable to getting pneumonia.<br>
What about other respitory illnesses, such as RSV or sinus infection?<br>
Would antibiotics make a person more susceptible to ending up with pneumonia?<br><br>
Personally, I have stayed away from antibiotics, except when I had pneumonia and surgery.<br>
Since my children are not capable, yet, of making an educated, informed decision with regards to their medical treatment, it is left up to me.<br>
My ds had RSV and has ongoing problems since.<br>
My dd built an immunity and never got sick until last year. 8 years of complete health! She got a sinus infection (I would put money down that it was because she was playing in the mud and picked her nose before washing her hands). The antibiotics landed her in the hospital. I originally wanted to use breastmilk, as that is what has always cured my sinus infections, but...you know, fear brought me to the doctor.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtezuma Tuatara</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Was the antibiotic explanation useful/helpful or does it require further elaboration?</div>
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That explaination makes a whole lot of sense.<br>
Now you've got me thinking about phenylalanine.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtezuma Tuatara</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Was the antibiotic explanation useful/helpful or does it require further elaboration?</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bow.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="bow">
 

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Discussion Starter #38
should this thread be archived NOW?
 
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