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Originally Posted by fatgirlmom
mamajama -- um, NO, MTF women are not BORN women, hence transition, and voice training, and for some, major facial/cranial surgery. if MTFs were born female, there would be no need for surgery at all. in fact, if MTF were born female, there would be no transsexuality at all. that's ridiculous for you even to say.
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My interpretation of what mamajama said was that MTF women feel like they need to go through all the surgery and outside changes to get the world to see them the way they have always seen themselves on the inside.
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| i ask you again: do you think white people should be allowed in POC only spaces because we are all people? do you think separate spaces are EVER acceptable? |
Well, I appreciate that Womyn's Fest is a women-only space. It would be a very different experience if men were invited. I just have a hard time with the festi-planners' attitudes about transwomen.
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| specifically, do you think that WBW is inherently unacceptable? do you think there is no lived experience differential between transwomen and women who have always been perceived as girls? |
I agree it is different from being raised a girl. But I think there are more differences among the experience of girls than there are between girls and transgendered women. I would rather we find the commonalities among all women than make divisions and say, You are not a "real" woman simply because you were not raised as a girl. Transwomen who pass as women are experiencing the same sexism every day as you or I are.
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| and nubiamama, um, yes i DO understand. i've gone to festival for over a decade, so i actually know how it works from experience and from thinking about and considering BOTH sides of this discussion from people on both sides of the issue. have you? |
I went to festival for 5 joyous years, starting in 1994. I stopped going because my partner was beginning to deal with her own trans identity, and she felt excluded by the women who had always accepted her before. I also heard a lot of negative talk about bi women and this bothered me (as a bi woman).
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| as for your statement that F2Ms would be allowed, the festival is for women who were born as, raised as, and currently live as women. all three. F2Ms aren't women. they are men. and if an F2M comes to a festival FOR WOMEN, they are either totally oblivious to privilege of taking up space over women's bodies or desires or they don't idenitfy as a man. it isn't the people's festival. it is a festival for WOMEN BORN WOMEN. and for a man to barge into women's space is bullshit. |
I don't know any FTMs who would want to be at Festival. I'm just saying that FTMs were "born women," according to your definition. And this angry reaction I'm hearing from you is exactly the reason I don't feel comfortable supporting MWMF.
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| also, there are loads of trans only spaces. www.strap-on.org has one. should all women be able to go there simply because we are all women? |
I was considering physical spaces, not virtual ones.
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| MWMF doesn't question gender because it is the only place on earth where girls/women who DON'T conform to what girls/women are supposed to be get to celebrate their own beauty. that means bearded women, butch women, etc. being a woman who was raised her whole life being told she wasn't "acting" as she should, or being denied access to things because she is a girl is a lot different than being told to act "more" like a boy. |
So, then, what about the girls who decide, as adults, they want to be outside the dual gender paradigm and be trans-gender? Are they not welcome because they go "a little too far?"
I'm really glad Festival meets your needs. But it doesn't meet mine.
