[fatgirlmom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunadoula Exactly. And I'm sorry, but I would never want to teach my daughter (if I have one, some day) that this type of discrimination is ok. We have lots of trans friends. What if festivals for black women excluded those who are mixed race? I just can't support something that excludes trans women because they don't fit in their definition of women.

i teach my black son and daughter that they need to create spaces for themselves that they feel comfortable in. sometimes they choose to have space to play with black kids even though they are at a mixed school. even at 3 and 5, they feel the difference. even though their white friends may feel "excluded." sometimes we just don't get to be everywhere we want to be. that doesn't mean they don't have worth or aren't loved. hell, if i didn't teach my 5 year old that, i would NEVER get a chance to be alone with myself or my partner!

and i think it would be absolutely FINE for black women to exclude mixed women. they have totally different experiences of racism in the world. and although we (a lived experience i reference here) have lived with racism, having lighter skin or "good hair" or all of these other ridiculous things that have been imposed on our bodies from inside and out change how we wrestle with our internalized racism. is that defining how the mixed woman is a woman or is it figuring out who shares a lived experience of similar damage? to create separate space to heal with our respective experience growing up with and living with racism seems absolutely right to me.

i mean, on that note, are you against MWMF's Women of Color tent? shouldn't white women be able to go to that tent because they are women too? would you be cool with all women attending a space for trans-women only because we are all women?

recognizing our *lived* differences, creating celebrations about those differences is an important part of life for me and my kids. being raised as a boy is not the same as being raised as a girl. as parents, we see this better than anyone.

and that is one of the reasons why michigan is SO GOOD for my kids, especially my daughter. she gets to remap her brain. and my son has a deal with not getting the privileges (even as a black boy) that are bestowed on him every day. and i see it every day...he gets attention and power dumped on him in a way my daughter does only if she looks "cute."

our oppressions make us who they are. as women, as queers: we are women of color, we are fat, skinny, we are white, we are trans. i'm not willing for myself or my daugher to become a homogenized "woman." i honor my lived experiences, my differences and out of basic respect i would hope others would honor it too.

oh, and as for F2Ms, why would a man want to go to a women's festival?!? that's not about "letting them in" that's about self-selecting. and if someone self selects to go to a women's festival, they clearly don't consider themselves a man.

 

[fatgirlmom]

wow. we have a very different way of seeing the world.

mamajama -- um, NO, MTF women are not BORN women, hence transition, and voice training, and for some, major facial/cranial surgery. if MTFs were born female, there would be no need for surgery at all. in fact, if MTF were born female, there would be no transsexuality at all. that's ridiculous for you even to say.

there is a PROCESS to growing up. People of color know this instinctively. there is a moment that they realize they are of color. that is because they are told. through racism and through survival techniques. the same is true of being raised a girl. that is an experience that is known because it was lived.

do people ever get to gather around a self-defined lived experience? ever?

i ask you again: do you think white people should be allowed in POC only spaces because we are all people? do you think separate spaces are EVER acceptable? specifically, do you think that WBW is inherently unacceptable? do you think there is no lived experience differential between transwomen and women who have always been perceived as girls?

same is true for girls. they are told constantly they are not-boy. and they are told constantly how to be "girl." being a girl is not the same as being a transkid. and slapping those experiences together does no service to transkids who ARE suffering from the acute transphobia out there.

and nubiamama, um, yes i DO understand. i've gone to festival for over a decade, so i actually know how it works from experience and from thinking about and considering BOTH sides of this discussion from people on both sides of the issue. have you?

as for your statement that F2Ms would be allowed, the festival is for women who were born as, raised as, and currently live as women. all three. F2Ms aren't women. they are men. and if an F2M comes to a festival FOR WOMEN, they are either totally oblivious to privilege of taking up space over women's bodies or desires or they don't idenitfy as a man. it isn't the people's festival. it is a festival for WOMEN BORN WOMEN. and for a man to barge into women's space is bullshit.

also, there are loads of trans only spaces. www.strap-on.org has one. should all women be able to go there simply because we are all women?

MWMF doesn't question gender because it is the only place on earth where girls/women who DON'T conform to what girls/women are supposed to be get to celebrate their own beauty. that means bearded women, butch women, etc. being a woman who was raised her whole life being told she wasn't "acting" as she should, or being denied access to things because she is a girl is a lot different than being told to act "more" like a boy.