Posts by mamajama
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Yeah, even if someone payed my way I wouldn't go, unfortunately. I'm not into their "womyn born womyn" policy, and I happen to also have two boy-children that I would want to be able to hang with for the weekend. Le Tigre is playing near me and I won't be going to see them, either. I think it's utterly lame to discriminate against trans women. It's a shame, becasue it probably could have been a great festival.
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I, for one, have not lived my whole life as a woman. I was once a little child.
I, probably as most children, was filled with insecurities. Existential Panic, as it were.
I was mortally self conscious about my hair. I thought I would be happy turning into a little pile of sand and being blown away by the most convenient gust of wind. Imagine how I would have felt if I was stuck with a penis between my legs that I didn't want, as well.
One of the most beautiful thing about womyn, in my opinion, is our ability to empathize in an uncannily harmonious way with other living creatures. Especially our sisters in spirit.
Well now, I can talk festival-jive too.
I celebrate womyn every blinkin' moment of my life and it certainly as #ELL is not about what we physically look like. It is about who we have become.
Originally Posted by mplsmom I find it interesting that in space, there are so many womyn who do not recognise the need for women who have lived their whole lives as women, to gather together and celebrate who we are. Kirsten |
I, probably as most children, was filled with insecurities. Existential Panic, as it were.
I was mortally self conscious about my hair. I thought I would be happy turning into a little pile of sand and being blown away by the most convenient gust of wind. Imagine how I would have felt if I was stuck with a penis between my legs that I didn't want, as well.
One of the most beautiful thing about womyn, in my opinion, is our ability to empathize in an uncannily harmonious way with other living creatures. Especially our sisters in spirit.
Well now, I can talk festival-jive too.
I celebrate womyn every blinkin' moment of my life and it certainly as #ELL is not about what we physically look like. It is about who we have become.
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I agree. That's why I think it's wrong to exclude ONE type of woman. Just one type. It's not a festival for just one select group of women. It's for every group, every type of ability, every culture, every brand of sexuality EXCEPT transwomen. I have a huge problem with that.
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I don't think that wanting to go to a festival defines a person's gender.
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I have transsexual (FtM) friends who would not go into a woman's only space.
In fact I personally don't know any who would. They are all men who truly understand the need for women to have a safe space. But if one of them were to want to go to a women's festival, I wouldn't for a minute think that means they're not men!! I can think of lots of men who would looove to go a to a beautiful feild, listen to awsome music, and be surrounded by thousands of beautiful women. Come to think of it, I can't think of many who wouldn't.
Heck *I* would want to go to if ALL my sisters were welcome.
Originally Posted by fatgirlmom our oppressions make us who they are. as women, as queers: we are women of color, we are fat, skinny, we are white, we are trans. i'm not willing for myself or my daugher to become a homogenized "woman." i honor my lived experiences, my differences and out of basic respect i would hope others would honor it too. |
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| oh, and as for F2Ms, why would a man want to go to a women's festival?!? that's not about "letting them in" that's about self-selecting. and if someone self selects to go to a women's festival, they clearly don't consider themselves a man. |
I have transsexual (FtM) friends who would not go into a woman's only space.
In fact I personally don't know any who would. They are all men who truly understand the need for women to have a safe space. But if one of them were to want to go to a women's festival, I wouldn't for a minute think that means they're not men!! I can think of lots of men who would looove to go a to a beautiful feild, listen to awsome music, and be surrounded by thousands of beautiful women. Come to think of it, I can't think of many who wouldn't.
Heck *I* would want to go to if ALL my sisters were welcome.
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I'm curious about how easy it is to dismiss what I and other posters have written about this.
Originally Posted by Magic Denise I love the view you are bringing to this. You offer a fresh perspective that I have thought myself but not verbalized/written. I hope we can meet at fest this year. Hurray. |
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I do not believe it's ridiculous to suggest that transsexual people are born a sex that doesn't match their gender. Surgery etc for transsexual people is required in order to MATCH their sex and gender. I think you are confusing the use of the terms.
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I'm a bit confused about the correlation you're describing here. Would you be able to clarify it a bit?.
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No I think it's acceptable to create POC only spaces. I would not, however think it was ok to make those spaces exclusive to every POC except one particular group. Does this make sense? I think it's fine, for example to create a space for POC in general. I also think it's fine to make a space for people of one specific cultural-minority group. But I don't think it's cool to have a space for every cultural-minority group *except* one.
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yes...see above.
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It is to me personally.
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I think to say so would be a massive sweeping generalization. The population-base you're asking about is HUGE. How could anyone possibly answer that question?
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I think *excluding* transsexual people from a festival is perpetuating a climate of transphobia.
Not to mention intersexed people.
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(bolding mine) how exactly does one 1)define "raised as" and 2) prove this?
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?
Well, I rarely have come across a trans-only space. But I think a trans-only space should be respected.
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I think that's wonderful, I truly do.
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Again, I see a lot of assumptions being made here. What about a M2F woman who was raised to act "girly"? What about a girl who was raised to act "butchy". It does happen. What about intersexed folks who have penises? It could go on and on.
Originally Posted by fatgirlmom mamajama -- um, NO, MTF women are not BORN women, hence transition, and voice training, and for some, major facial/cranial surgery. if MTFs were born female, there would be no need for surgery at all. in fact, if MTF were born female, there would be no transsexuality at all. that's ridiculous for you even to say. |
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Originally Posted by fatgirlmom there is a PROCESS to growing up. People of color know this instinctively. there is a moment that they realize they are of color. that is because they are told. through racism and through survival techniques. the same is true of being raised a girl. that is an experience that is known because it was lived. |
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| i ask you again: do you think white people should be allowed in POC only spaces because we are all people? |
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| do you think separate spaces are EVER acceptable? |
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| specifically, do you think that WBW is inherently unacceptable? |
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| do you think there is no lived experience differential between transwomen and women who have always been perceived as girls? |
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| same is true for girls. they are told constantly they are not-boy. and they are told constantly how to be "girl." being a girl is not the same as being a transkid. and slapping those experiences together does no service to transkids who ARE suffering from the acute transphobia out there. |
Not to mention intersexed people.
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| as for your statement that F2Ms would be allowed, the festival is for women who were born as, raised as, and currently live as women. |
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| also, there are loads of trans only spaces. www.strap-on.org has one. should all women be able to go there simply because we are all women |
Well, I rarely have come across a trans-only space. But I think a trans-only space should be respected.
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| MWMF doesn't question gender because it is the only place on earth where girls/women who DON'T conform to what girls/women are supposed to be get to celebrate their own beauty. that means bearded women, butch women, etc. |
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| being a woman who was raised her whole life being told she wasn't "acting" as she should, or being denied access to things because she is a girl is a lot different than being told to act "more" like a boy. |
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I can think of a way for that to be rectified. The policy could be changed.
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I think it's interesting (if slightly infuriating) that this incredibly important aspect can so easily be tossed aside for the sake of 'fun'.
I will pose one more question before I give up (again). What if the festival excluded Fat Womyn. Surely the experience of growing up not fitting into society's expectations is different from a woman who grows up fitting in.
So policy changed: Every womyn is allowed in, excpet fat womyn.
It's shocking and awful for me to even type that. Why is it so easy then to exclude another type of womyn because of her physical characteristics?
I'm wrestling with finding even a drop of understanding as to how this is considered acceptable. Where's the outrage?
Originally Posted by Magic Denise Maribelle - I agree. I had really hoped to discuss the festival fun here not debate the policy again and again. |
I think it's interesting (if slightly infuriating) that this incredibly important aspect can so easily be tossed aside for the sake of 'fun'.
I will pose one more question before I give up (again). What if the festival excluded Fat Womyn. Surely the experience of growing up not fitting into society's expectations is different from a woman who grows up fitting in.
So policy changed: Every womyn is allowed in, excpet fat womyn.
It's shocking and awful for me to even type that. Why is it so easy then to exclude another type of womyn because of her physical characteristics?
I'm wrestling with finding even a drop of understanding as to how this is considered acceptable. Where's the outrage?
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I am not villifying you personally. But your opinion that MtF transsexuals are not womyn is extremely harmful and carries with it a whole lot of unkind assumptions.
Unfortunately, your opinion is a very common one. I'm actually always very dissapointed when I hear women expressing it, doubly so when feminist womyn express it and, well, triply dissapointed when queer or allied womyn do. It implies that transsexual individuals are liars, choose their fate, are 'imposters', and not to be trusted to claim their own sexuality. It also implies that they are somehow lesser. All of these attributes were overtly applied to all womyn, not so very long ago. Now that we've come a certain way in acheiving some rights, we can now turn our backs on those climbing the ladder way behind us? Are we hurredly patching the hole in the ceiling lest someone else get through?
Is womyn a strictly defined word? How is that possible when gender is a social construct? Basically we have a choice. We can decide that queer feminism is an exclusive group for people who fit our personal definitions of what it means to be womyn. To me that's like selling out and as a member of the queer, feminist, born-with-a-cunt group, I'm not selling my bit yet. Not until all womyn can reap in the profits.
Originally Posted by frog I don't buy that, mamajama. I have an opinion, you have an opinion. Why villify me for mine? I'm not villifying you for yours. |
Unfortunately, your opinion is a very common one. I'm actually always very dissapointed when I hear women expressing it, doubly so when feminist womyn express it and, well, triply dissapointed when queer or allied womyn do. It implies that transsexual individuals are liars, choose their fate, are 'imposters', and not to be trusted to claim their own sexuality. It also implies that they are somehow lesser. All of these attributes were overtly applied to all womyn, not so very long ago. Now that we've come a certain way in acheiving some rights, we can now turn our backs on those climbing the ladder way behind us? Are we hurredly patching the hole in the ceiling lest someone else get through?
Is womyn a strictly defined word? How is that possible when gender is a social construct? Basically we have a choice. We can decide that queer feminism is an exclusive group for people who fit our personal definitions of what it means to be womyn. To me that's like selling out and as a member of the queer, feminist, born-with-a-cunt group, I'm not selling my bit yet. Not until all womyn can reap in the profits.
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I'm genuinely trying to understand this, Jennifer. Why 'proudly'? I really don't understand. I hear that many people support the fact that the organisers are 'defining their space'. That's cool. But does the ability to define one's space trump the fact that the definition is transphobic and discriminatory against one type of woman? So it's more important that I'm defining my space than how I'm defining it?
Originally Posted by Jennifer3141 we proudly support the WBW policy. |
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Sorry to be repetitive. But I have yet to hear a response that makes sense. I guess you're ok with being transphobic? Or do you prefer a different term.
Originally Posted by frog mamajama, I'm not a queer woman, I'm a lesbian. Just FTR. You're free to define yourself any way you like, same as you're free to have your beliefs. I have that same opportunity. I've heard the arguments you're making a thousand times before. I still support the WBW policy and will continue to do so. |
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OK. You're done. But you might notice that I've been posting on this thread for a year and I don't think there's been any 'berating' on my part. You have identified trans folks as a particular gender (or not a particular gender) which is simply wrong. I have BTDT as well, and I happen to feel strongly enough about this issue to never stop. I am more than willing to engage in dialogue about this (as evidenced by the fact that I've been participating in this thread for quite some time). If you're not, you're not. That's ok.
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But I do find it interesting how you have specified that you're a 'lesbian', thus identifying your sexual identity but yet you are unwilling to allow others (namely--transsexual people) to do the same.
Originally Posted by frog You're berating people for arriving at different conclusions than you. It doesn't foster any sort of conversation, and you're so sure you're right and everyone else is wrong that it's not at all interesting to me. BTDT. I'm sure someone around here hasn't gone 'round and 'round on this particular issue before, but it's not me. You know where I stand and I know where you stand. I'm done. |
But I do find it interesting how you have specified that you're a 'lesbian', thus identifying your sexual identity but yet you are unwilling to allow others (namely--transsexual people) to do the same.
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What about womyn who do not share those experiences with you? What about womyn who never bled, never lost their breasts to cancer, never hit a glass ceiling? What about womyn who were born with intersexed features but identify as womyn? What about Anne Coulter, would she be allowed over a kind and sensitive transwoman? I don't understand how anyone could feel it's alright to draw the line just behind where they stand themselves. I don't understand that as feminist womyn, you feel it's ok to support the perpetuation of discrimination based on sexuality.
On the one hand, I hear people saying "I support transsexual people etc etc. I'm not saying they're not 'real womyn'" but then saying that it's somehow justifiable to descriminate against them on the basis that they are not womyn enough . It's so contradictory to me. Why can't I see the connection?
Originally Posted by Jennifer3141 I support womyn who grow as little girls, who bleed, who bear children, who lose their breasts to cancer, who hit a glass ceiling at work, etc. etc. |
On the one hand, I hear people saying "I support transsexual people etc etc. I'm not saying they're not 'real womyn'" but then saying that it's somehow justifiable to descriminate against them on the basis that they are not womyn enough . It's so contradictory to me. Why can't I see the connection?
Thank you for drawing my attention to that board, Jennifer.
I have a better idea of all of this now. I find it really sad and frankly I'm surprised. But I see how it would be exhausting to rehash the same points over and over. I guess that since they make no real sense and contradict the theme, the questions will continue to arise. Such is the case when the answers are unsatisfying. One day, I trust that this devisiveness will seem universally silly. Until then, I'll continue to speak up on behalf of oppressed women everywhere.
I have a better idea of all of this now. I find it really sad and frankly I'm surprised. But I see how it would be exhausting to rehash the same points over and over. I guess that since they make no real sense and contradict the theme, the questions will continue to arise. Such is the case when the answers are unsatisfying. One day, I trust that this devisiveness will seem universally silly. Until then, I'll continue to speak up on behalf of oppressed women everywhere.
I was really faced with a stark example of the gender binary concept while writing a paper last term regarding transsexual inmates. And transsexual people as they fit into a very boxed-up legal system. We have a long way to go.
I feel most comfortable with the idea that "there is no 'natural' sex that exists outside of gendered discourse." And this to me does not negate the value of social and societal norms. They help all of us floundering humans make sense of our world.
But on the flipside, a balance (as always) must be sought. Those norms can also supress people from living up to or striving for their potential. I think that is one of the greatest damages we can inflict on our fellow human beings. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the essence of law and manners is the venue we provide to others to live up to their potential. When we inhibit others by abusing, murdering, stealing, defining etc. we inhibit them and commit crimes (whether on or off the written rule of law).
So I see no moral justification in discriminating against or defining another human being. In fact---the opposite---I see it as a moral crime.
I think I went on a tangient. But dammit. I'm trying to live up to my potential.
I feel most comfortable with the idea that "there is no 'natural' sex that exists outside of gendered discourse." And this to me does not negate the value of social and societal norms. They help all of us floundering humans make sense of our world.
But on the flipside, a balance (as always) must be sought. Those norms can also supress people from living up to or striving for their potential. I think that is one of the greatest damages we can inflict on our fellow human beings. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the essence of law and manners is the venue we provide to others to live up to their potential. When we inhibit others by abusing, murdering, stealing, defining etc. we inhibit them and commit crimes (whether on or off the written rule of law).
So I see no moral justification in discriminating against or defining another human being. In fact---the opposite---I see it as a moral crime.
I think I went on a tangient. But dammit. I'm trying to live up to my potential.
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How are any two women's experiences 'interchangeable'?
It sounds like you have set up some lines of distinction which may make sense to you, but they do not serve the purpose of feminism if they are made to divide and exclude. Sure a woman partnered with a man may have more shared experiences with other women partnered with men and enjoy certain aspects of privillege than women partnered with women would have. Those differences and similarities are certainly worth honouring. But to me this sounds like such desperate attempt at fitting in to a 'club' of sorts, that differences within groups and the infinte variety in women is being somwhow overlooked.
Originally Posted by frog tara, I don't discount anyone's experiences, trans or otherwise. I don't see trans experiences and women's experiences as interchangeable, rather the same way that I don't see the experiences of women partnered with men as interchangeable with the experiences of women partnered with women. |
It sounds like you have set up some lines of distinction which may make sense to you, but they do not serve the purpose of feminism if they are made to divide and exclude. Sure a woman partnered with a man may have more shared experiences with other women partnered with men and enjoy certain aspects of privillege than women partnered with women would have. Those differences and similarities are certainly worth honouring. But to me this sounds like such desperate attempt at fitting in to a 'club' of sorts, that differences within groups and the infinte variety in women is being somwhow overlooked.
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