[fayebond]

OP, I too have not read the entire thread, but I read your story and it resonated with me. I have heard alot of similar comments from parents who use the cio method. I think that, its possible, CIO vs AP vs whathaveyou, is not the point here. Other people's advice, and possibly a desire for more sleep, seem to be at issue.

Adults have a way of making pronouncements, "well, why don't you do xyz? or "we do it this way", with full intent of just expressing thier own opinion and enjoying the opportunity to talk about themselves. They don't necessarily mean to give advice. They don't even necessarily mean that what they do/suggest works. They just want to have something to say. So when you say "I have a lack of abc", most people usually offer solutions, whether abc is sleep or cheap enough laundry soap.

I would add, we had one daughter who, whether in our arms or in bed alone, would need to fuss for about 12 minutes before falling asleep. I mean 12 minutes to the very second, every time, for three months. Many CIO fans said, oh, see, cio works! It happens anyway! Haha. We have another daughter now, and she has never done the whiney/fuss/crying thing before bed. She is awake when she goes down, but its never a crying out thing, its a oh, I'm in bed, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Every baby is different. Adults, unfortunately, are pretty much the same in the advice department.

PS we have found co-sleeping counter productive after about 2 months of age. DH gets better sleep, and is more productive at work, when he gets to sleep w/o all the extra moving persons in bed. Maybe its time to move on. Or maybe not, I am, after all, one of those adults now

 

[JoyFilled]

I am wondering why co-sleeping and nursing is keeping your DH up? I often correct DH when he says our DD or DS slept through the night right away - they didn't I just nursed them back to sleep before they woke him up.

 

[MeepyCat]

Joy, I'm glad cosleeping worked out so well for you. Reading the thread might give you a sense of various ways in which it functions imperfectly for some other people, including some situations in which the non-nursing partner had trouble sleeping. Sometimes moms are harder to wake then dads, sometimes dads have a lot of trouble getting back to sleep, and sometimes teething, colicky or sick babes don't nurse back down quietly (or at all). nine or ten months is also a very different stage then newborn.

 

[pek64]

If mom is harder to wake than dad, dad would be woken if the baby is in another room, too. My point is any sleeping arrangement can have problems.

If a squirmy child is bothering dad, put a bed rail on one side of the bed and the child between mom and rail. That should help dad. If the child is noisy, then maybe mom and child sleep in the child's room during the week, giving dad better sleep when working. Weekends can be family time. Flexibilty and creativity are key for good parenting, in general. Get a good understanding of the problem to start. Then look for solutions.

 

[llwr]

I think a lot of guys are solution oriented. So if everyone else's babies were CIO and everyone else's babies sleep, than that must be the solution. I know my DH is great about going along with all my crunchy ideas, but it was about 18 mos before he actually understood why I refused to CIO. I don't even remember what it was that I said, though I do remember thinking I'd said just about the same thing 50 times before! He still says that he's only met one other person who didn't think it was crazy NOT to do it.

In a way, I thnk there's a lot of pressure to CIO. And a lot of misconceptions about how a baby shoudl sleep. And even though every part of me is against it and I know it doesn't always work, even I am tempted by the idea of 2 short nights of screaming followed by sleeping all night long. DD1 was always a poor sleeper, and CIO was the only thing we ever heard. Even when she was under 3 mos. I've heard multiple people say how their ped told them to do it. The most neutral advice I ever got was to do Baby Whisperer for the first year, and then Ferber was ok.

I think starting as you mean to finish needs to be developmentally based. I mean, we don't feed our newborns broccoli. In the same way, a toddler or child is able to take a different kind of sleep training or teaching than an infant who doesn't even understand object permanence. I think a lot of times we expect more from our kids than we do of ourselves -- in terms of sleep, respectfulness, cleanliness...

Maybe your DH needs to hear why it's important to you. Meeting emotional needs, being respectful, teaching rather than abandoning.... these types of things. Like PP said, why would you treat a baby worse than an elderly or disabled person? If he's a science guy, I know there's all sorts of studies about CIO changing their brain. Maybe something like this would be more effective than whether or not it works. Because "working" isn't what it's about to me; it's about relationship and treating them the way I want to be treated.

As far as what to say to other people -- that's something I still struggle with. Because the reasons I have for not doing it tend to sound self-righteous and judgy to people who think CIO is the way to go. I mean, you can't tell someone that they've changed their child's brain or that they probably wouldn't treat any adult that way and not have them get defensive. He might be able to say something about treating babies respectfully and get away with it. What works for our family is always an option, but I wish I had a way to get others to see my side instead of just ending the conversation.

When I'm asked about sleep in general, I usually talk about normal infant sleep and ways to cope with it. It's normal for babies to wake at night, to need to eat, to have regressions. I recommend NCSS. Regressions are often developmental. That sleeping in the same room could allow me more sleep while still meeting their needs.

If the family bed isn't working for you right now, you could try moving things around a bit -- My DD's both had their own rooms, but I usually spend most of the night in their with them to minimize my waking at night and to maximize DHs' slee as well.

 

[seposte]

CIO "worked" for our oldest 2 in the sense that as infants they slept through the night. They both now, at 11 and 9, are, and have been my WORST sleepers. Insomnia, night terrors, fear of the dark, bed wetting etc, have been the name of the game for both of them for years now. The middle 2 ( 3& 5y.o)are easy.... At bedtime I tell them it is time for sleep, tell them I love them, they take about 15 minutes to settle in and then they are asleep for the night. They have never been left to CIO. I never could have done that with the older 2!

 

[nettles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichelleZB

So, I let my 15-month-old cry one night. He wasn't even in a crib. He was in me or my husband's arms, being rocked, cuddled, and patted. Everything we read told as that they "fall asleep eventually". Well, how long do you have to wait for eventually? He screamed furiously and hysterically for about 3 hours without a stop until I just nursed him again. CIO may work for some people, but I honestly think my son would just cry all night until we gave in. And how much sleep would I get then?

yes. this is where we are right now. I've tried holding her, dh has held her, I've sat by her crib, and she just gets increasingly upset. And she's a wreck afterwards (as am I).

I don't feel it's the right thing. I'm in the "better than major vehicle accidents" category, right now though, as far as sleep, and I think I've tried pretty much everything else out there.

 

[Viola]

Quote:

Originally Posted by presentmoment

Also, what do you say if and when people ask you why you don't do CIO? I tend to try hard to keep it personal and not come off as too judgmental, partly because it's usually a close friend or family member, and also because the only thing I feel I know for sure about babies after 10 months of having one is that every one is an individual.

Well, with family, you don't really have to be polite, they are family, you're supposed to insult each other and get into arguments. OK, maybe that's my family.

With friends, I would talk about how CIO doesn't work well or is detrimental and provide information, something like this: http://www.drmomma.org/2012/09/the-dangers-of-crying-it-out.html Then the person would say, "It worked great and my baby is fine!" then we'd change the subject.

I did try CIO for 2 weeks when my child was about 14 months old. It was horrible, it didn't work, and I felt like I damaged her psyche. I did it, in part, because my husband was getting some of the same messages and felt like something had to change. After 2 weeks I felt like I could say, "See, told you so."

 

[KSLaura]

What worked for us was moving a 2nd double bed into our bedroom for the kids. They have no problems sleeping, and neither do we. We have an extra bed/bedroom, if we want time away from the kids (after they fall asleep). The other thing that worked was going to bed much earlier. Normally the whole family is in bed/asleep by 8:30 or 9:00. When people ask how my kids slept, I usually told them they sleep great right next to me.

 

[Sheepdoc]

While its political to not mention the negatives of CIO it does leave open the question are you walking away from an abusive situation? I once lost a friend because she was using modified CIO with her 6 month old and he was covered in scabs from scratching himself in despair despite her putting mittens on him. I pointed out - as gently as possible that perhaps he wasn't "accidentally" self-mutilating himself in distress (which still seems abusive to me!) but that perhaps it was on purpose similar to older children who engage in cutting as a tension reliever.

Barring pointing out that CIO done to an adult would be defined as torture under the Geneva Convention and get you arrested if you used it on a disabled adult, ever heard a positive story about how good it was the nurses wouldn't respond to the amputee, Alhzeimer's, etc.... calls in the night?

You can focus on the positive.
She's still in our bed because it facilitates breastfeeding. We're hoping to make it to at least 2 years just like WHO recommends.
She sleeps in our bed because research shows co-sleeping with children promotes secure adults.
She's in our bed because we aren't comfortable having her trapped on the other side of the house in an emergency.

I met someone once who would have all her older mobile children sleep in her bed when her husband was away, "in case there's a fire and I'm the only adult we can get out quicker" but kept the baby in the crib in the nursery because learning to sleep alone was too important.

Last example my husband's friends who at 3 years were still doing CIO (they were as anti-AP as it gets, dad insisted formula from birth because he wasn't sharing his wife's breasts - his words not mine!, etc). At 18 months their son crawled out of the crib in the night and went to the ER with a broken arm. So they put a child gate across his doorway. At 3 years he STILL woke every two hours all night and screamed for his parents!

 

[Sheepdoc]

What works best for me to get the best slleep is I nurse them down and. Y husband sleeps with them while I sleep elsewhere until they wake up. Usually I can get 5 uninterrupted hours that way!

 

[MeepyCat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheepdoc

While its political to not mention the negatives of CIO it does leave open the question are you walking away from an abusive situation? I once lost a friend because she was using modified CIO with her 6 month old and he was covered in scabs from scratching himself in despair despite her putting mittens on him. I pointed out - as gently as possible that perhaps he wasn't "accidentally" self-mutilating himself in distress (which still seems abusive to me!) but that perhaps it was on purpose similar to older children who engage in cutting as a tension reliever.

That suggestion does sound like a very efficient way to end a relationship. Six month old babies really do not have the same thought processes, needs or coping mechanisms as older children. Telling a mother that her not even toddling yet infant is self injuring because she's a bad mom is beyond the pale.

That kind of scratching in an infant should prompt evaluation for bedbugs, scabies, and reactions to laundry soap.

CIO with healthy adults is far from torture. Some of us prefer to do our crying alone.

 

[blessedwithboys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by presentmoment

No matter how committed you are to AP in principle, and how wrong the sound of your child's cry (even for a moment) feels viscerally, it can be discouraging, I think, when so much of the culture makes it sound like CIO is "easy" and harmless. Especially when you've had a couple really hard nights in a row and are feeling tired and run-down.

Agree!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheepdoc

Barring pointing out that CIO done to an adult would be defined as torture under the Geneva Convention and get you arrested if you used it on a disabled adult, ever heard a positive story about how good it was the nurses wouldn't respond to the amputee, Alhzeimer's, etc.... calls in the night?

Nice points!

OP, I never intentionally did CIO but both of my kids were carseat screamers and even with limiting my trips they spent many hours each week hollering their brains out. My story is this: I met a new friend about 4 years ago, we've since become very close. She's a great mom, but one of her kids is the most insecure person I have ever met. The child is on a mission for attention (male in particular), is very clingy, and can't handle the slightest perceived snub. She sees her life through Mean Girls-colored glasses. She is a tween...so insecure...her mom is very worried about her as she enters the teen years. I literally have never met such a human, of any age, who needed such constant attention. I guess I wasn't surprised when her mom told me she got tired of night-waking at 24 mos and locked the child in her room until x-amount of nights when the poor baby gave up crying and learned to just go to sleep because there was no use in crying since no one was going to come for her.

FWIW, I get the sense that my friend wishes she hadn't done it. I can only be friends with her bc it happened many years before I met her. Were it a current situation, our time spent together would be limited considerably, lest I should through judgy comments her way.

 

[katelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplerose

And I will tell you...she is almost 18 months old, and if I take the kids to school in the morning, she will scream and throw up several times the whole way home. Dh changed his work hours just because of this issue so that she could stay home with one of us during drop-offs. Car sickness, you say? Well she is fine when we pick them up after school. I have heard it all.

I know you said you'd heard it all and I apologise in advance for weighing in on this but... I can't help it

I'm not saying your LO has motion sickness but I get it and it is worse in the mornings. Afternoons/evenings it is not as bad or I don't get it at all (unless I do something stupid like try to read a map or change the CD). I am not a morning person so I'm sure that contributes.

 

[Sheepdoc]

The mother herself explained the scratches as being related to her 6 month old "accidentally" scratching himself when he was so distressed when she put him down in his crib and walked away. They did not happen any other time awake or asleep.

Every child is different but so far I have yet to see any non CIO baby scratch themselves repeatedly by "accident". My oldest accidentally gouged his own nose, ONCE at 2 weeks and never did it again. Pain is an indication from the body to stop.

Adults may choose to cry alone. An infant confined to a crib screaming in hysteria 1) has no choice. 2) has no other voice with which to scream water, food, dry diaper, comfort or anything else. 3) we know abused children are more likely to grow up into abusive adults - the fact that some adults prefer not to be comforted does not mean this is healthy, it May just mean that the habits we learn as children last a lifetime. My husband was a CIO baby. It has taken him years to learn to ask for help (that isn't scientific, just anecdotal) even something as simple as asking a clerk in the store what aisle the toilet paper is in used to leed to, "they're not going to help, why bother asking". And yes his parents are generally detached so it's not just CIO I'm sure buti stand by the fact if you tried to implement CIO in a nursing home you would go to jail. If I loose friends for pointing this out to children who are abusing their children at least I will not have ignored the abuse. Beyond that I don't know what to do because legally we allow and encourage the routine abuse of children but I will speak out and hope one day one of us who does will have our Rosa Parks moment where the accepted norm becomes to much to bare!