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are doctors experts on vaccines?
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No.
It's a minor part of their training.
It's a minor part of their training.
No, because I've never seen a continuing education course on how to recognize or deal with vaccine reactions. Doctors need to be aware that vaccine reactions aren't limited to extreme allergic reaction OR to pain and swelling where the shot was given.
I had to vote other, just because I'm that sort of person. 
I have a bit of an issue with the idea of expertise and the term, "expert." For the sake of this particular discussion, let's say that an "expert" is someone with detailed specialised knowledge, training, and experience in a particular field. ie. a specialist. In that case, I don't consider GPs to be experts in vaccines. In our experience, GPs are the ones you consult first for garden variety issues and they refer you elsewhere if your issue cannot be resolved in a 10 minute consultation. In the past year, our family GP has referred our family members on to (in no particular order) a retinal surgeon, a gastroenterologist, a dermatologist, and a paediatrician. In these instances, it's an acknowledgment of where our GP's expertise ends.
I will concede that GPs receive training in vaccines, in giving vaccines, basic immunology (I hope), VADs (although diagnosing seems tricky for some), and I assume basic training in the merits of the schedule (hence, why I voted "other). However, we've encountered issues when asking them to work with us to vaccinate in a manner that does not include all scheduled vaccines, even when these alternatives are permissable in the legislation.
Finally, aside from the question of expertise related to vaccines, there's the issue of vaccine legislation and policy. I usually have to point out what sections of the Immunisation Handbook the doctor should refer to in order to address my current quiery, and I end up quoting sections to him as well. He always seems to read it like he's never seen it before.
I have a bit of an issue with the idea of expertise and the term, "expert." For the sake of this particular discussion, let's say that an "expert" is someone with detailed specialised knowledge, training, and experience in a particular field. ie. a specialist. In that case, I don't consider GPs to be experts in vaccines. In our experience, GPs are the ones you consult first for garden variety issues and they refer you elsewhere if your issue cannot be resolved in a 10 minute consultation. In the past year, our family GP has referred our family members on to (in no particular order) a retinal surgeon, a gastroenterologist, a dermatologist, and a paediatrician. In these instances, it's an acknowledgment of where our GP's expertise ends.
I will concede that GPs receive training in vaccines, in giving vaccines, basic immunology (I hope), VADs (although diagnosing seems tricky for some), and I assume basic training in the merits of the schedule (hence, why I voted "other). However, we've encountered issues when asking them to work with us to vaccinate in a manner that does not include all scheduled vaccines, even when these alternatives are permissable in the legislation.
Finally, aside from the question of expertise related to vaccines, there's the issue of vaccine legislation and policy. I usually have to point out what sections of the Immunisation Handbook the doctor should refer to in order to address my current quiery, and I end up quoting sections to him as well. He always seems to read it like he's never seen it before.
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An average doctor can't even tell you 5 ingredients in any given vaccine (let alone tell you in laymen's terms what they mean or what their purpose is).
Nor can a doctor or the average vaccine administer (that includes the nurses, and kids in the pharmacy giving out free shots), tell you the complete list of possible side affects and effectiveness rates for the vaccines they are giving.
A car salesman knows more about cars, then a doctor knows about vaccines.
Many offices will make a stink if you as much as ask them for a vaccine insert....
Nor can a doctor or the average vaccine administer (that includes the nurses, and kids in the pharmacy giving out free shots), tell you the complete list of possible side affects and effectiveness rates for the vaccines they are giving.
A car salesman knows more about cars, then a doctor knows about vaccines.
Many offices will make a stink if you as much as ask them for a vaccine insert....
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No, because there's only so much reality that can be denied before we start to question the "experts" on "reality".
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I doubt many mechanics could list out all the ingredients in brake fluid. That doesn't mean they aren't capable of telling you when you need to put some in your car or of knowing how important brake fluid is.
Have you ever looked up the massive list of ingredients that are in a single natural apple? How many doctors or dieticians in the world do you think could list out all those ingredients off the top of their head? Does that mean they can't know anything about fruits being part of a healthy diet?
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While I understand why you are making this point, this really isn't the point of the thread.
The question is simple: are doctors in general (and the ones we see for primary care) experts on vaccines? I say no, based on personal experience, the course sequence in medical schools and the fact that GP's and paediatricians (GPS more-so than paediatricians) are generalists more than specialists.
________
A mechanic who cannot list the ingredients in brake fluid is not an expert in brake fluid.
a doctor who cannot list vaccine ingredients is not an expert in vaccines.
I would posit there is more to being an expert than being able to list ingredients, but I think it is reasonable to expect an expert to be able to list ingredients.
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I disagree. Which group of experts do you think could list the chemical ingredients of fruits and vegetables and other foods off the top of their head? Do you think dietitians or nutrition experts could? Does this mean virtually no one on the planet is an expert on food or healthy eating?
I doubt hardly any anesthesiologist could list out every chemical ingredient in the all the various forms of anesthetics. That does not mean they aren't experts on anesthesia.
Actually, it looks like mechanics probably do know at least the main types of brake fluids and what they are based on. http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil/
What gets me is the number of doctors who insist, for example, that there is NO mercury in the flu vaccine...it was all removed...and then go ahead and inject babies with a mercury containing vaccine. Is that really okay?
What gets me is the number of doctors who insist, for example, that there is NO mercury in the flu vaccine...it was all removed...and then go ahead and inject babies with a mercury containing vaccine. Is that really okay?
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1) He's not a car mechanic. He's a blogger and mountain bike enthusiast.
2) That's not even about cars.
3) Written on a blog post is not reciting off the top of your head.
4) He doesn't even list all the components which include:
Alkyl ester
Aliphatic amine
Diethylene glycol
Diethylene glycol monoethyl ether
Diethylene glycol monomethyl ether
Dimethyl dipropylene glycol
Polyethylene glycol monobutyl ether
Polyethylene glycol monomethyl ether
Polyethylene oxide
Triethylene glycol monobutyl ether
Triethylene glycol monoethyl ether
Triethylene glycol monomethyl ether
Wow! you really win that argument teacozy!
But about that mercury in the vaccine being injected into the 6 month old baby to "prevent" the flu...
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Well that escalated quickly....
Teacozy,
Do you think a general pedidatrician is an expert in vaccines?
Why or why not?
I do not believe they are experts because:
A. Most of them push EVERY SINGLE scheduled vaccine, without understanding how the nature of the diseas they are immunizing against relates to the patient (ie the child).
Ex: pushing the Heb B vaccine on a new born whose parents are not Heb B positive.
Ex 2: pushing the chickenpox vaccine on a nursing baby whose mother is immuned to chickenpox, or demanding the vaccine on a toddler who has an infant at home. (Varissela vaccine sheds)
B. They can not list 3-5 basic ingredients in the vaccine
C. They can not list side affects.
D. They have not read the manufacturer's insert.
You are fully entitled to disagree with my thoughts and reasoning.
Teacozy,
Do you think a general pedidatrician is an expert in vaccines?
Why or why not?
I do not believe they are experts because:
A. Most of them push EVERY SINGLE scheduled vaccine, without understanding how the nature of the diseas they are immunizing against relates to the patient (ie the child).
Ex: pushing the Heb B vaccine on a new born whose parents are not Heb B positive.
Ex 2: pushing the chickenpox vaccine on a nursing baby whose mother is immuned to chickenpox, or demanding the vaccine on a toddler who has an infant at home. (Varissela vaccine sheds)
B. They can not list 3-5 basic ingredients in the vaccine
C. They can not list side affects.
D. They have not read the manufacturer's insert.
You are fully entitled to disagree with my thoughts and reasoning.
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Ps. I am on neither team... I am not pro, nor anti Vax.
But I am very much pro informed decisions.
And I am pro parents right to chose what is best for THEIR child. Not someone else's child.
Do your own research and chose what works best for YOUR family.
I know people who after research and much medical consultation decided the varissela vaccine is a safer choice for them then wild chicken pox. (They had a lot of medical issues). And I know others who feel safer never using any vaccinations (after weeks and months of study and consultations)
It should be a personal medical choice, not some fad to follow because your doctor or next door neighbor said so.
Its OK to question and investigate, but it's NOT OK to push your views on the rest of the population.
But I am very much pro informed decisions.
And I am pro parents right to chose what is best for THEIR child. Not someone else's child.
Do your own research and chose what works best for YOUR family.
I know people who after research and much medical consultation decided the varissela vaccine is a safer choice for them then wild chicken pox. (They had a lot of medical issues). And I know others who feel safer never using any vaccinations (after weeks and months of study and consultations)
It should be a personal medical choice, not some fad to follow because your doctor or next door neighbor said so.
Its OK to question and investigate, but it's NOT OK to push your views on the rest of the population.
Welcome to MDC!
While I appreciate a person who thinks, researches, asks questions, etc, not everyone, particularly the pro-vaccine camp, does. I am glad to see you would like others to consider this decision carefully vs something else. I hope you'll stick around. I appreciate a thinker & questioner!
All the best,
Sus
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And apples really aren't particularly good for you. Better off with a nice bowl of oatmeal, if you're shy on soluble fiber, an average apple's primary nutritive contribution. >
Many doctors have no idea how often serious vaccine reactions occur. However, in a recent study [Vaccination practices among physicians and their children. OJPed 2012 Sep; 2(3): 228-35] “Ten percent of pediatricians and 21% of pediatric specialists claim they would not follow [CDC] recommendations for future progeny. Despite their education, physicians in this study expressed concern over the safety of vaccines.”
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