[heartmama]

This is something that runs through my head when I read of people with animals who (more than once) have peed on the owners bed/snapped at the baby/trod across the dinner table during meals/etc.

We have two large rescue cats. They can be quite obnoxious. They aren't aggressive but there's more than one way for a cat to cross the line and be obnoxious (I love them dearly, and they are absolutely the sweetest, most trusting cats I have ever met...despite being abandoned by a previous owner).

From day 1 I have had no problems enforcing boundaries. They do not get second chances to do really obnoxious things. I guess others assume it won't happen again, and I assume it will. Not the other way around.

Some examples:

I will not be awakened at 3 am by a bored cat. Period. I did not get up 27 times at night with ds for 5 years to lose sleep to an adult cat. The first time it happened I put them both in the book room at night, closed the door, and there they have gone every night since, no exceptions (it's a large sized room with windows, cat beds, litter box, they live the good life, it's not a punishment in any sense, it's a boundary).

We eat on a low table asian-style. Exactly once we came to the table and found the cats eating our dinner for us, and thereafter, I put them in the bookroom before setting out the table.

I do train them for lesser issues and to some extent the cats are responsive to consistency. However there is no way I have found to 100% train a cat not to do something they have a motivation and opportunity to do....not a humane method at any rate. Leaving dinner out on a table 1 foot off the ground and leaving the room with two cats innocently "sleeping" under said table...well, I deserve what I get. A cat near a tableful of food at whisker-height...it just seems incredibly lax and inconsistent to give them the chance to ruin dinner *knowing* they have done this in the past, *knowing* have not trained them to be 100% reliable in the face of such temptations.

I refuse to use methods that involve jumping out and spraying them or banging pots together to "train" them. If consistency, praise, and environmental deterents (foil on the counters) do not work, retiring them to the bookroom is 100% effective. It is a safe, kitty proof place with all their comforts and room to play.

Am I alone here? I love them but I do not parent them. Their mama cat did that and she raised 2 very loving sweet cats. My job is to keep them safe and meet their needs. Which begins by understanding they aren't human and do not have the needs of a human baby. I don't feel the slightest guilt about having boundaries for these cats and definite limits that prevent them from eating my dinner or waking me up all night.

 

[Sailor]

To tell you the truth, I don't understand how to even train a cat. Somehow, I have this idea that they can never be trained reliably. Not like dogs, at least. So, I've always let my cats be. And, like you, if they're a nuisance, then I remove them to another room until I'm finished with whatever activity I was doing.

 

[heartmama]

Quote:

To tell you the truth, I don't understand how to even train a cat. Somehow, I have this idea that they can never be trained reliably. Not like dogs, at least. So, I've always let my cats be. And, like you, if they're a nuisance, then I remove them to another room until I'm finished with whatever activity I was doing.

Hmmm, my thoughts exactly, in far fewer words!

Although even a dog, if it is not 100% reliable with a real problem behavior...like pooping on the sofa, or snapping at the baby....no way on earth the dog would be loose in my house. No access to the sofa or the baby or whatever, until I knew the dog was trained out of that behavior.

 

[Godiva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartmama Hmmm, my thoughts exactly, in far fewer words! Although even a dog, if it is not 100% reliable with a real problem behavior...like pooping on the sofa, or snapping at the baby....no way on earth the dog would be loose in my house. No access to the sofa or the baby or whatever, until I knew the dog was trained out of that behavior.

I'm going to take a wild guess and think that my recent post about my dog acting aggressively twards my dd had something to do with inspiring this post.

I live in a very small trailer. To not let my dog anywhere near my baby means she is locked away in a room 24/7 where she has about 3 feet of room to move. That is not any kind of life for any animal. If I were to go to that point, the dog would be given away. I will not abandon a dog to live it's life in a cell.

I do not assume my dog will not snap at my baby again, exactly the opposite, I am never more than an arms reach away any time my dd is near my dog. I am ALWAYS aware that something could happen.

If I were to do what you suggest, locking her away from my baby til I "knew" she was trained not to snap at her, how would I ever know if she were trained? It's not like she can say "oh I understand I shouldnt snap at the baby, I won't anymore". She's not aggressive to us and is perfectly trained at more commands than the average dog, so what would my sign be that it's safe to let her out? Or should I lock her away til my dd is old enough not to bother her anymore? You can't train a dog to respond appropriately in a situation that they are never exposed to. Locking an animal away isn't training it and it's not fair to that animal. (However I don't see anything wrong with locking a cat in a room for an hour while you eat)

 

[heartmama]

bailey228~there have been a lot of posts about this, and things IRL, kwim?

To answer your points...I can only speak for me personally. I could not have an animal around a baby that showed aggression. Maybe the dog could have free roaming time while the baby naps, when the baby is up in the sling while you stand, or at night when the baby is in bed. I might construct an inexpensive run outside the back door. Does your house have bedrooms and/or a little hall? I might gate it off so the dog had a play area without being *in* the living area when the baby was there.

I agree there is no way to "know" the dog is reliable near the baby if he's never around he baby. The only way to know would involve the risk of it happening again. I could not take that risk twice.

They aren't babies forever, and if it's a very small dog or a cat, I think you could re assess once the baby is a child.

 

[EdlynsMom]

Baileys issues have been discussed aplenty here (how are y'all doing, BTW?), so I will just say to Heartmama that limitations and boundaries are DEFINATLY the right way to go when raising any animal to be a member of the family. How else will they learn their place? If it means seperating them to another room, using a kennel when appropriate, keeping a leash on at all times, then so be it. Until the animal has shown that he understands whats expected of him, he needs to be shown how to behave. Sounds like you have a good handle on your cats, Heartmama! The people that bug me are the ones who complain about the issues you mentioned and then say "But we cant do anything or he'd be miserable..." or those that dont even try to correct the issue and get rid of the animal. The whole gentle or AP concept doesnt really apply to animals, unless you take it purely as respecting the needs of said animal. They arent people, as much as we sometimes think or want them to be, but they are darn good at being great companions when given the chance!

 

[EdlynsMom]

Bailey, was it my examples of crating or leashing that werent "training"? If so, youre right, because I didnt go into the rest of it. The examples I gave are tools that one can use in fostering good behavior but wont magically create a good animal. I'll wait and see if Im way off before I go into it more!

I dont know if the OPs actions with the cats should be taken as you would a dog, since cats are so different. From my own experience, I doubt a cat can be trained the same way you would a dog but I admittedly havent tried to train a cat, other than litter box training which barely counts. I cant even get my cat to not scratch the couch.

: It seems like its working for the OP, and since its not a dangerous behavior, its all golden.

I sincerely hope you reach a conclusion with your pup, Bailey! I dont remember, is there a friend or family member who can take her, if she seems so unhappy? I know that not all dogs can really be trusted with kids, and I know for sure that the lack of space has an effect on that, but I know your situation is really a "what can we really do" type of thing.

Hoping you reach a happy medium.

 

[Nora'sMama]

Actually I'm a totally permissive parent with my cats

 

[heartmama]

I empathize with the "what else can we do" type situation, although I still would not mix a baby with an animal that shows aggression (I do not know enough about dog psychology to know if dominance displays = aggression risk).

I disagree having a pet friendly space is "locking them away", particularly if it's a predictable part of the daily routine to ensure safety during times when the baby is on the floor playing (or in our case, to ensure they do not keep us awake all night, or "help" us with dinner).

Wouldn't it be possible to have a routine like that? Kind of like when you crate train a puppy? There is play time, cuddle time, outside time, and there is crate time when it's none of the above. There is not time to roam free around the house and leave puddles, until the dog is reliably trained.

I think there would still be ways to socialize as a family, such as taking a walk with baby safely in a backpack, and meet the dogs needs, without giving him more freedom than he has shown he can take.

I mean this in general. If it's part of the animal's daily routine, I think separation into a pet friendly space is kinder than leaving them in a situation where they could do harm or disrupt the family.

I would not re-home unless there was a need I simply could not meet at all (like living with a 100 lb. violent dog in a studio apartment). In a perfect world animals can fully understand and live up to what their environment expects. I'm sure my cats would love to socialize with me all night too (after all, this is when they are active). However that is just not an option.

 

[heartmama]

I disagree with some of the above. Which was why I asked if others felt the same way I do about this.

I do not reprimand or punish them (in case I didn't make that clear?).

They do not whine or cry in the bookroom. It's a 600 square foot addition...full of hiding places and window ledges...they consider it 'theirs'. But I presented it that way from day 1. They are fed there, the litter box is there etc. If you want to say they secretly do feel punished, I guess we'll never know?

I would never, say, lock them in the bathroom. That would freak them out. The bookroom is theirs.

I agree they are not "like" dogs, but you know, we had a lab once that was like this cat. Totally untrustworthy around food. She was a seeing eye dog who nearly failed the program because she snuck food even *in harness*. She was unreliable near food. Sweetest dog in the world, but would take the food right out of a baby's hand, with an apologetic lab look in her eyes. Our cats are like that...simply cannot be near a low table of food. One is a "talker" and yodels until she is either fed or removed.

I do not want to play with them at night. I do not want them on the bed with me at night. If someone else wants to do that with their cat, go for it! I think it is kinder to give them a place they can be as playful as they want, than to lay there playing "dead" ignoring them, hoping they will magically understand I want them to be quiet.

I agree we should meet their needs. These cats are great cats. Honestly, the best pets I've ever had. They have zero behavior problems, although I think I just lucked out, I can't take credit for much of it (since they were adult rescues). They are gluttons near food and will talk all darn night, but those are cat behaviors I can anticipate and respond to as described. Nobody has pooped in my shoes so I guess they feel content.

I 100% get that some people dislike setting limits with animals, again, which was why I posted the thread.

 

[shannon0218]

I'll speak to the dog part (because I know NOTHING about training cats!)
I'm going out on limb here with how I actually interpretted the OP, which I think is different than the way others are, OP, please let me know if I read this wrong.
When I think of setting boundries with dogs, I think of stopping the common problems before the ever start. A good 95% of k9 aggresion issues could have been prevented or stopped long before the average owner recognizes a problem even exists.
Some of the common starting points I see when I work with clients;
1) Owner reaches for collar, dog lifts lip, owner ignores, doesn't notice or becomes scared and decides to just avoid touching the collar (the last one is the one I see most often and by far the most dangerous)

2) Dog displays various signs of dominence, during play that are ignored (ie, standing over owner, "play" growling, initiating rough play, mouthing)

3) Dog is a food thief so the family solves the problem by being hyper vigilant about NEVER leaving food out.

4) Dog is a barker whenever isolated from the family (ie crated) therefore the family never isolates the dog.

5) During a correction the dog growls/snaps/bites at owner, owner decides the dog doesn't like that and just never gives another strong correction.

6) Dog displays fear or aggresion towards strangers and the owner "comforts" the dog to attempt to settle him. Problem is, dogs don't understand comfort, they understand right and wrong and they see comfort as praise for their behavior, this escalates aggresion quickly.

If I had to pick one thing that dog owners could do that would drastically improve living conditions for dogs and humans and would greatly reduce the number of times we see posts/I get calls/dogs end up at the humane society it would be to educate people on the early signs and symptoms of dominence & or fear and how to deal with it at the very beginning.
I have clients who think I'm nuts because I always pick the most dominent pup in a litter, I had someone last week say "But you can't have a dog that dominent around a child" The difference is, aggresion in my house never gets past the first slightly elevated lip. I see that and the kaka hits the fan. Yes I overreact, I make sure the dog knows just exactly how unacceptable that was. I treat it like he just nailed me. There are no shades of grey. When handled like that, there is generally only ever one incident. When people avoid, work with and around and ignore, they end up needing to fix it later, it's harder then because the dog has had say 2 yrs where as far he was concerned, you were just fine with his behavior.

As for separating the dog, I agree it can't be done all the time and an animal will never get better if the solution is to simply remove him from the situation. However, if you are not 100% available, both mentally and physically to be right on top of the dog, then yes, separation should be used so that you NEVER risk having the dog display bad habits when you are not able to correct them instantly. In raising working dogs we use the crate a LOT, reason being, we actually coddle that insane, dominent charactor in puppyhood--however, we don't want to encourage bad behavior--we just don't want to correct any dominence--so when we can't stand the crazyness, we crate. Never as punishment, it doesn't matter how hard you need to grit your teeth, dog goes in the kennel with a good boy and a treat.

So basically, crating the dog is the best thing to do if you aren't ready to correct, but anytime you are ready, the dog should have the opportunity to make the mistake.

 

[shannon0218]

Oh, and Bailey, none of that was against you, the problems you are having may have been preventable, but my point in my post was that the signs and symptoms are usually so very subtle that the general public misses them.

 

[heartmama]

Quote:

I'm going out on limb here with how I actually interpretted the OP, which I think is different than the way others are, OP, please let me know if I read this wrong. When I think of setting boundries with dogs, I think of stopping the common problems before the ever start.

You interpreted this correctly!

I agree cats are very different, but the above concept is true whatever your method. When we brought the cats home I researched cat "training", which said it was vital to transition them to a very small room in the house for the first week. We picked a little office, maybe 10x10. This gave them a week in a small enclosed area with the litter box. By the end of the week they had no concept of peeing outside the box...cats like it tidy, and where could the go to escape a puddle in a tiny room? Then I added one adjacent room, watched for reliability with the box, and then one more, and so on, until the cats roamed the house freely, with a perfect record of returning to the box to use the bathroom.

I never gave them repeated chances to fail, and I think, many, many owners overwhelm animals with "freedom" without making sure the animal can handle it. The nice thing about this is that if a new room poses a potty problem, you just go back to the previous step, make sure they were really 100% reliable there, consider any trouble spots in the next room (was there a potted plant with sand near the puddle? Cats will sometimes pee next to sand if they can't go in it), and try again when you can supervise them.

Our other house animals include 3 rabbits. Training a rabbit is unlike a dog or cat...however it's probably the easiest, because with rabbits, you use the above understanding to the *letter*. You absolutely never give a rabbit a chance to do less than expected, because rabbits have no concept of consequences. There is no rewarding or punishing a rabbit. They have two modes "Content" and "Running for our Lives". There is no in between. The environment must do 100% of the 'training' by setting them up to succeed.

I have litter box trained all of them to 100% reliability, including an adult rescue. They will not leave a puddle anywhere in the house. But, you do that by never, ever letting a rabbit know there is anywhere else to go potty! You work with their instincts to create an environment of success.

I think that last bit is what makes any animal "training" work.

 

[bright]

Yes! I am firm with animals. And I find often people don't get this. I have had friends say that they feel I am being "abusive" with my dog because I spoke to him in a loud, firm voice, said "No!" sternly. This dog is huge and very energetic and dominant. I of course would never hit him, or seclude him away from the family for extended periods (I have put him in the back room for short periods when we've had guests and he has not been gentle).

I really don't feel like I am a dog abuser. I feel like people have these idealistic views of animals, including large dogs, where interaction should always been peaceful and quiet and never include a power dynamic where the humans express their dominance. In my opinion, that is not a realistic or safe way to interact with big and dominant animals.

 

[heartmama]

Quote:

I have had friends say that they feel I am being "abusive" with my dog because I spoke to him in a loud, firm voice, said "No!" sternly.

:

Wow.

 

[pygmywombat]

I, too, try hard to be very firm and consistent with training, boundaries, discipline, etc. with our animals. I start out strong from puppyhood so I can correct problems well before the animal is stronger then me. I believe our current dog has growled once over a piece of food that I took away and in his view the sky fell down as soon as that sound left his lips. This is essential- especially since I have cows who outweight me by the time they are a month old! And when I am working with an animal I try to keep in mind how they "think", as it were. Dogs are pack animals- I (and any other human) are alpha. The dog is the lowest creature in the pack. Cows are herd animals- I am the queen of the herd and I will not be shoved around, mounted, slapped with a tail or head, etc. I am never abusive, never cruel, my animals have the best lives possible. But they are animals, not people. I'm not going to redirect my dog or have a talk with him about his feelings if he does something bad. He will be corrected and removed from the situation if need be. I am not going to let my cow try to slam me out of the way because she wants to get to her grain before I open the stanchion- she will get a good slap on the nose and be chased out of the barn and made to wait until I decide its feeding time.

 

[shannon0218]

Claire, your post made me think about an "incident" I had with a female I used to have. She was a very lets say feisty bitch and my neighbors had a dog that used to come to our property whenever it was in heat (stupid neighbors!) Anyway, one night, at like 2 am, I let Gyro out and this damn dog was in the front yard, a nasty, bloody, messy fight ensued and before Gyro killed this thing (who was also quite large and often ran with the coyotes) I ran out there (completely naked

and flanked her. In the heat of the moment she turned and clamped down on my arm (which I totally expected) well then she looked up--you could see her eyes slowly coming up to meet my face, then she dropped to the ground and peed, you could see the look on her face was like "Oh shit, I'm in trouble now!" The other dog was terrified of humans so she retreated as soon as Gyro let go of her but I will never forget that look, that face going from being "I am in total control of everything" to "OMG, I messed up SOOOOO big!!"

 

[pygmywombat]

Our GSD has major shame issues if he even thinks about snapping or biting at someone. Even if he hasn't done anything wrong but he felt he was on the edge of misbehaving he gets a very guilty look and goes off to hide in another room. But, he also gets what we call the "wiggly puffers" where he will play growl and run around like a loony and snort at you and wants you to chase him and he knows that is fine.

Our previous GSD was the exact opposite on the temperment spectrum. I think he would have made a good police dog- a very dominant, aggressive dog. He experienced my wrath many, many times for snapping, growling, etc. I wish I could have seen what he matured into- he had to be euthanized at 2.5 yo after a 6 month battle with perianal fistulas that ended in a severe intestinal impaction.

I think a lot of people have problems with their dogs because they have trouble taking the alpha position with them- I go through this with my mother, she absolutely refuses to put the dog in his place because she thinks its "mean", yet she get's mad because when he jumps up on her, push past her, etc. I will correct him if I'm there, but I think it would have a bigger impact if she was doing it. And I'm not telling her to smack him, just knee him down and say NO firmly and go on your way. I don't know why, maybe because she grew up in a house with no pets, let alone dogs. I did grew up with them and have never had a problem being the dominant one, even when I was a little kid I had no problem bossing around our GSDs and other people's dogs. We have a old family video of me as a little 4 yo giving one of our GSDs a good talking too in the backyard and making her lie down.

 

[livinzoo]

lol... My animals all know their name. If its something mild that they are doing wrong I ask once (Little Boy Get Down) and maybe clear my throat if they don't comply quick enough. The funny thing is out of 4 cats and 2 dogs. Only the one that is doing something wrong reacts when I clear my throat. That is their uh-oh mom is serious on this one. All 6 come when called and are expected to act right.

Punishment is based on the animals need. Cats usually a wet tail or paw does the trick. My large dog I just have to raise my voice and he cowers. My dominent dog (65 lbs) I have to come down on hard and truthfully this only happens once in a blue moon. But as Shannon said I nip the behavior as soon as it begins. For instance if he growls (he doesn't curl lips or anything before the growl) at me for telling him to move the next thing he knows he is pinned to the ground with me in his face. He gets that look of oh she is serious and then we are good. He knows I'm in charge. I can trust this dog with children pulling on his tail and ears or giving him a treat and taking it back (of course I would never leave him alone with kids). He knows his place but once in a blue moon will try to challenge me for it. This dog has taken a lot of work and truely it scares me to think of what he would be like if I didn't have him. I still enjoy the dominent puppy. I'm very head strong...lol

 

[heartmama]

Quote:

Punishment is based on the animals need. Cats usually a wet tail or paw does the trick.

I have doubts that cats associate abstract punishments like that the way we imagine. My cats would be totally bewildered I think, and one of them is a pretty smart cookie. I can just see her thinking...Did it rain in the house? Is the human slobbering on me? Wet tail... This human is too unpredictable!

Just wanted to point out that I don't jive with punishments. I do jive with natural consequences~and I can see for dogs, a pretty natural consequence of usurping the boss is getting put back in your place.

Cats, honestly, seem a bit like rabbits insofar as prevention and environmental boundaries are most effective. If you do something abstract (and a wet tail is an abstraction...unless you are training the cat to hate a wet tail)...cats and rabbits assume YOU are the one doing wrong. They may make the association over time, but it may not be what the human intended. Climb on counter-human goes crazy and wets my tail. Don't climb on counter-because humans go crazy. I don't think they can rationalize dont climb on counter-tail stays dry.

For cats and especially rabbits good behavior must be it's own reward.